False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#16

Post by natcat86 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:17 am

If a child went to put their hand in a fire and you warned them not to would you then "lovingly" let them put their hand in it. Lovingly repecting their free will, or would you grab their hand away? People do not understand the consequences of their sin, they are slaves to it, just like children are confined in their underdeveloped minds.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#17

Post by ageofknowledge » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:36 am

Again, this in no way negates anything I have said. You're really reaching.

First, God does both warn and try to reform people. Throughout human history God has both communicated with mankind and worked with each person's conscience while they were on earth. Peter declared, "The Lord . . . is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 39). But after the time of reformation comes the time of reckoning: "Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (Heb. 9:27).

Second, hell is only for the unreformable and unrepentant, the reprobate. Hell is not for anyone who is reformable; anyone reformable will still be alive, for God in His wisdom and goodness does not allow anyone to go to hell whom He knew would go to heaven if He gave more opportunity. This may be a point you have not heard before: God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4); hell was originally created not for people, but for the devil and his fallen angels.

Third, contrary to the assumption that once a person reached such a horrible place he would want to leave, it is simply not so. There is no evidence for this in the gospel story of the man in hell and there is no support for it in the known nature of the human psyche. In regard to changing the hearts and dispositions of wicked people, how can a place devoid of God's mercy accomplish what no measure of His grace could accomplish on earth? If hell could reform those who choose evil, then they could be saved without Christ, who is the sole means of God's salvation.

In fact, as opposed to softening a hard heart, suffering often has the result of hardening it more, as illustrated in the case of Pharaoh (Ex. 7-14) and as demonstrated by the recidivism of hardened criminals who consistently willfuly rebel against repentance. Fourth, and finally, God cannot force free creatures to be reformed. Forced reformation is worse than punishment, for punishment honors the freedom and dignity with which God endowed His human creation: "To be 'cured' against one's will . . . is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals" (Lewis, GZTD, 292).

Humans are not objects to be manipulated; humans are subjects to be respected. People, made in God's image, receive punishment when they do evil because they were free and knew better (see Rom. 1:18).

C. S. Lewis said:

"Milton was right. . . . The choice of every lost soul can be expressed in the words "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." There is always something they insist on keeping, even at the price of misery. There is always something they prefer to joy.. to reality. There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock [the door] is opened."

Heaven or hell. The choice is yours.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#18

Post by natcat86 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:12 pm

If I am reaching its because I really cannot reconcile a God of love who could consign the majority of his creation to hell. To think of a God that does that makes me feel fear and perfect love drives out all fear. When I think about Christs sacrifice on the cross actually saving ALL of creation I feel amazing love and awe and NO fear.

Regarding hell I dont buy that people send themselves there. if every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord will they then take themselves into hell? or if they are able to confess Christ will they not have gone through the same transformation that happened to us that allowed us to confess Christ?
Is there an expiration date on Gods love, why would he impose that on things if he was so desperate to have a relationship with us that he sent Jesus?
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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#19

Post by ageofknowledge » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:20 pm

I have shown your reasoning and conclusion to be false (merely repeating your false assertion at the end of our discussion doesn't make it any more true than before I refuted it); however, if you are a born again Christian: this point of error on your part certainly won't result in you going to hell. So relax. Fear not required.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#20

Post by natcat86 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:49 pm

I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything, I'm certainly not trying to convince or convert you to my opinion. I'm just explaining why I feel the way I feel. Those are the immediate thoughts that come to mind when I think about God and hell. Also I'm still very much searching for answers. Thank you AOK for your thoughtful responses.
Second, hell is only for the unreformable and unrepentant, the reprobate. Hell is not for anyone who is reformable; anyone reformable will still be alive, for God in His wisdom and goodness does not allow anyone to go to hell whom He knew would go to heaven if He gave more opportunity. This may be a point you have not heard before: God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4); hell was originally created not for people, but for the devil and his fallen angels.

Third, contrary to the assumption that once a person reached such a horrible place he would want to leave, it is simply not so. There is no evidence for this in the gospel story of the man in hell and there is no support for it in the known nature of the human psyche. In regard to changing the hearts and dispositions of wicked people, how can a place devoid of God's mercy accomplish what no measure of His grace could accomplish on earth? If hell could reform those who choose evil, then they could be saved without Christ, who is the sole means of God's salvation.
these two points make me think of The Great Divorce. If I thought that the bible spoke about hell the way that it is spoken of in modern chritianity then I could definately agree with those two points but I think that I am almost 100% convinced by the points MbofMb makes in their first post, that there is no hell at all.

Of course I will keep praying and studying. If I am wrong then I pray God will show me the truth, but when I read both sides of the argument I am much more convinced by MbofMb, Willie, Tentmakers analysis of scripture than that of those who believe in hell. I am not kidding myself there and not just believing it because its more convenient, its not, it comes under Abberent Christianity- who wants to be thought of as Abberent!!

Thanks again for taking the time to cover, what must be for you, old ground.

Nat

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#21

Post by catherine » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:51 pm

ageofknowledge wrote:

Heaven or hell. The choice is yours.

I believe the choice is life or death:

eternal life either here on the 'New Earth' or in Heaven- the Bible seems to suggest we are going to live down here, or eternal death.

Having studied this subject of 'hell' or should we more correctly say 'sheol', 'hades' and 'gehenna' (and tartarus), I do not believe the Bible is teaching that the dead are tormented for ever. I believe some of the language used is figurative of destruction and decay ie eternal destruction. I comfort myself with this verse:

'Will not the Judge of all the earth, do what is right?' Gen 18:25. The fate of the dead are in His hands.

This debate on hell will continue until Jesus comes back, I'm sure. Some of us will continue to believe it's a literal place and some of us will believe it is not. I can see why you believe the way you do. I've studied all positions very thoroughly and asked God many times to show me the truth regardless of my personal feelings. I'm sure you've done the same. Let us all work to help people avoid 'hell' whether it be real or not.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#22

Post by ageofknowledge » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:48 pm

You are most welcome Nat. Peace to you.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#23

Post by B. W. » Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:11 pm

Hi natcat86,


Please note the following from another thread:

Matthew 12:31, "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven...." ESV

Note that there is a sin that will not be forgiven because of this universalism is not true... sorry...

(Please Look up these verses as well...)

Hebrews 10:29 -- Matthew 5:22 -- Luke 12:5 -- Proverbs 14:32 -- Isaiah 3:11 -- Jeremiah 32:19

Romans 2:6 -- Job 34:31, 32, 33 -- Isaiah 26:10 -- Proverbs 26:11 -- 2 Peter 2:22
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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#24

Post by natcat86 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:53 am

B.W

Some biblical translations say that they will not be forgiven in/for the age. So there are views that even that scripture shows that even the worst thing you can do to God will not condem you forever. That there is nothing that will put you out side of his love, mercy and forgivness.

Hebrews 10:29 how can there be degrees of punishment if people are cast into the lake of fire for eternity, it will be the same amount of fire for the same amount of time. That is if the lake of fire is forever. the jewish faith sees Gehenna which jesus mentions in Mat 5:22 and Luke 12:5 as a refining fire as jews thats what the people Jesus was speaking directly to would have understood it as,refining fire. Jesus does not mention when speaking about Gehenna how long they will be there :D .

Prov 14:32, this does not dispute UR, it is speaking about Hades.

Isaiah 3:11 it does go badly for them, they live in sin and darkness.

Jeremiah 32:19, again doesnt dispute UR in this life people get rewarded and in the next they will to, so you will be rewarded more than one who will 'himself be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames' 1 corinthians 3:15

Romas 2:6 doesnt dispute UR, why does the pay back have to be eternal?

Job, what ever happens to believers that stops them from sinning again when they get into heaven why could this not happen to everyone after they have confessed jesus is lord?

Isaiha 26:10 this is true now but one day they will perceive the majesty of the Lord and it will cause them to bow their knee and give Him glory.

Prov 26:11, 2Peter 2:22 are you basing that this is talking about the wicked's fate in eternity based on your hell experience? because I cannot verify that. The wicked do that in this life, they are slaves to sin in this life, but once God has done away with sin how will anyone be able to be a slave to it anymore?

What about John 12:47?


Nat
Last edited by natcat86 on Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#25

Post by natcat86 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:05 am

B.W

was what you saw in your near death experience Hell or Hades, is Hell the lake of fire?

I was really moved by your youtube video of your testimony and I do not see how what you experienced negates UR. What you saw must surely be the place people go to before Judgement, or did you see something that will happen in the future? After being in their cells they will go to Gehenna, the refining lake of fire. Otherwise if that was Hell it seems the Demons get to have a great time tormenting the souls of the 95% of Gods creation they won into hell. It doesnt seem that the demons were being punished.

I only watched the videos once so forgive me if I have completely missed the point.

Nat

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#26

Post by B. W. » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:00 pm

natcat86 wrote: B.W….Some biblical translations say that they will not be forgiven in/for the age. So there are views that even that scripture shows that even the worst thing you can do to God will not condem you forever. That there is nothing that will put you out side of his love, mercy and forgivness.
Again read: Matthew 12:31, "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven...." ESV

Note that there is a sin that will not be forgiven and because of this, universalism is based on a false premise...
natcat86 wrote: Hebrews 10:29 how can there be degrees of punishment if people are cast into the lake of fire for eternity, it will be the same amount of fire for the same amount of time. That is if the lake of fire is forever. The Jewish faith sees Gehenna which Jesus mentions in Mat 5:22 and Luke 12:5 as a refining fire as Jews that's what the people Jesus was speaking directly to would have understood it as, refining fire. Jesus does not mention when speaking about Gehenna how long they will be there

Prov 14:32, this does not dispute UR, it is speaking about Hades. Isaiah 3:11 it does go badly for them, they live in sin and darkness. Jeremiah 32:19, again doesn't dispute UR in this life people get rewarded and in the next they will to, so you will be rewarded more than one who will 'himself be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames' 1 Corinthians 3:15

Romans 2:6 doesn't dispute UR, why does the pay back have to be eternal?
Again, Universalist base their interpretation that God is so loving and kind that he abhors all thought of torturing people, yet, paradoxically Universalist state that God loves to use the means of torture in a burning lake of fire so one can be purified to love God themselves…by their own act and work of contrition…

The logic of stating God hates torture yet He uses torture in the lake of fire is a contradiction in logical reasoning.

As for your claim in using ancient Jewish sources to support a Universalist world view is also historically false. There were several prevailing views at the time and life after death was believed in varying degrees in those times. Daniel 12:2 supports the eternal consequences for sin.

Also, the sign of the True Messiah was summed up in Zechariah 13:1 and Ezekiel 36:25, 26, 27 and known to the ancients. Note it states in these verses his People — not all People but those that believe in the Messiah's work will be made 'the righteous' by God's hand alone and not by human works. In others words: an exchange of sin so God will cleanse and make a person progressively righteous in this mortal life, not the hereafter.

Last point — why eternal affliction is eternal payback…

Why? Isaiah answer why -- Isaiah 26:10, “Let grace be shown the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness. In the Land of the Uprightness, he will deal unjustly and will not behold the Glory of the Lord…” NKJV

If they that reject the Messiah were tortured to repent in order to be purified by a God who cannot torture (as the Universalist doctrine states they reject God as a torturer) until the afflicted repent to love God through tortures purifying work they would still deal unjustly in the true land of uprightness (heaven)… There is no post mortem salvation…

This would also would make salvation come not through Jesus the true Messiah who died and rose from the dead for them that believe but rather salvation instead would come through the act of torture per individual person until they repent in the lake of fire and not by the Messiah as the bible proclaims and teaches.
natcat86 wrote: Job, what ever happens to believers that stops them from sinning again when they get into heaven why could this not happen to everyone after they have confessed Jesus is lord?
Ezekiel 36:27 -- Deuteronomy 30:6 — The Messiah shed 'life' so the Holy Spirit of God does this work as the above verses speak of as well as what Jesus spoke of in John 14:16,17.
natcat86 wrote: Isaiah 26:10 this is true now but one day they will perceive the majesty of the Lord and it will cause them to bow their knee and give Him glory.
It is because God is Just that he grants each a choice through His Call despite His foreknowing the final outcome — He still offers choice (Deuteronomy 30:19 as example of this) which proves God is Just and gives to all what they desire and deserve…Without this - how could God be just?
natcat86 wrote: Prov 26:11, 2Peter 2:22 are you basing that this is talking about the wicked's fate in eternity based on your hell experience? because I cannot verify that. The wicked do that in this life, they are slaves to sin in this life, but once God has done away with sin how will anyone be able to be a slave to it anymore?
Hint…When the wicked are turned into Hell and later in the Lake of Fire, there will be no more sin as it is contained… Daniel 12:2 and Revelation 20:14. Note in the next chapter of Revelations it speaks of the new heavens and earth. Now note Revelation 21:24, 27 as well as Revelation 22:15 happen after the new heavens and earth comes into being. These are eternal because God renders onto all what they desire and deserve as the bible clearly teaches.
natcat86 wrote: What about John 12:47?
You forgot the context:

John 12:46, — those that Believe and John 12:48 … Judgment will happen…

There is an exchange. In Universalism no such exchange is necessary because Universalist rework the bible in such manner as to nullify the need for Christ at all. Think about it…

Think how the Universalist's untorturing God will torture in the lake of fire until one repents and becomes purified loving God. This is a works based salvation based on man's ability to repent under duress and not of God's Work done by the Cross.

There is no justice in such coercion as it denies justice to the creature to be able to choose sin, rebellion over freely offered salvation…thru the true Messiah — Jesus Christ...

There is no Injustice with God — He renders to each according to his deeds… Romans 2:6
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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#27

Post by Aryk » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:20 pm

I have been so-called 'born-again' for over twenty years and have always struggled with this. I write this post not as a means to debate but because I am hoping for some sort of therapy/epiphany on this subject.

Here is what the Bible would have us believe: God loves us. All of us. So much so that he would endure terrible agonies in order to redeem our sinful selves back to Him. However, we need to claim his salvation in order to be redeemed. It is evident that the vast majority of mankind will, for various reasons, never use their eternal life coupon and therefore will not be saved. Therefore, eternal torment in the Lake of Fire awaits them. Baking along with Stalin, Hitler and hopefully Barry Manilow will be the little girl who was sexually abused when she was young, turned to drugs and prostitution and later died of AIDS. Barbecuing beside her and Ghandi will be the Vietnamese fisherman that rose early in the morning to provide for his family, loved and cared for his children, helped his village and prayed earnestly to his gods in humble ignorance. With them will be billions of others that weren't precisely murderers or fornicators or necromancers - just ignorant defendants too stupid to hire themselves a good lawyer: Jesus.

So an infinitesimal minority win the prize and the vast majority burn forever - and this is GOOD NEWS? I am not disputing that hell is real. Perhaps this is precisely how God has ordained things to suit his mysterious purposes. However, if this is the case then it is monstrous. If this is His plan then it is an abject failure. To call a being into existence merely for the purpose of torturing them eternally is sadist. In fact, it is evil. None of us asked to exist. Would any of us breed our dogs with the foreknowledge that the offspring would be so grossly offensive to us, that we would want to place the puppy in the microwave on high while simultaneously keeping them alive through a respirator so that they could feel the heat interminably? It would make Michael Vick look like a PETA member. But of course God doesn't send anyone to Hell!! But He did create it. He did set up the Rules. He did call these people into existence with the knowledge that they were going to burn forever. Why?

I've always wondered how a third of the Angels in heaven could have joined Lucifer and rebelled against God, as it says in Ezekiel. The Bible describes myriads of angels so I assume a third would be a significant amount. These are angels that had direct access to Almighty God, that knew him in ways that we men cannot. Yet they rebelled. Why? When I consider this barbarous idea of Salvation and Torture I experience an inkling. I know how that sounds. Don't misunderstand, I hate Satan. This schizophrenic depiction of a Loving / Hating God is still preferable to a completely vile devil. But who is this God? What is He really about? How does one reconcile a loving God with this business? Furthermore where is the Joy? These ideas don't make me joyful. I hate the thought that untold multitudes are going to suffer. It's a bummer. I KNOW that Jesus is more compassionate than I. He hates it even more. Couldn't He devise a means of satisfying His justice and still allowing mercy? A third way, so to speak, instead of this binary heaven/hell business. Not sure that Purgatory is Biblical but man it's not a bad idea considering the Evangelical alternative.

I've ranted long enough. Someone put me out of my misery.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#28

Post by Byblos » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:34 am

Aryk wrote:Not sure that Purgatory is Biblical but man it's not a bad idea considering the Evangelical alternative.
Not sure you understand what purgatory is, to suggest it's an alternative. Alternative to what? FYI, with its scriptural support aside, purgatory is a momentary transition for some believers.

As for the rest of your post, this subject has been discussed numerous times. Please do a search (some topics are linked below):

going to hell?
Heaven & Hell Vs Annihilation
God + love + hell = ?

And welcome to the board.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#29

Post by ageofknowledge » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:45 am

The doctrine of purgatory is a hoax perpetuated by the ignorance of some early church fathers (e.g. Patristic Theology) and finally formalized under a Catholic church in dire need of reform at the beginning of a counter reformation at the Council of Trent. It's a hoax. If you're a Christian reading this, you're in purgatory... lol. After this, it's off to heaven. Do not pass go and do not collect $200.00.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#30

Post by Byblos » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:54 am

ageofknowledge wrote:The doctrine of purgatory is a hoax perpetuated by the ignorance of some early church fathers (e.g. Patristic Theology) and finally formalized under a Catholic church in dire need of reform at the beginning of a counter reformation at the Council of Trent. It's a hoax. If you're a Christian reading this, you're in purgatory... lol. After this, it's off to heaven. Do not pass go and do not collect $200.00.
Says you. But that's a different topic altogether.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

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