Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant bapti

#91

Post by FredFlanders » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:12 pm

Gabrielman wrote:
FredFlanders wrote:
Gab,
Because you believe in Christ does not mean you have the Holy Spirit. There is more God has to give you must you must ask and seek for it.

There are many examples in scripture that will show you people who believe in Christ and God that do not have the Holy Spirit.

Receiving the Holy Spirit is a separate event to repentance and baptism. Acts 8 is a perfect example of how people were believed in Jesus, were baptised, had joy in Christ, were healed in the name of Jesus and had demons cast out of the yet had not reived the Holy Spirt until Peter and John prayed with them to receive the Holy Spirit.
Okay it is obvious to me that you want to just sit here and dictate my faith for me, nice try. Look, I don't know how much clearer I can make this, in fact I don't think it is possible to make it any more clearer than I already have. God's Holy Spirit is in me! I have prophesied, interpreted visions, and had visions, and His Holy Spirit has moved in me and moves in me every day. I read His word almost daily (yes almost, on some days I do not have the time to do so, however I do try to make time for it), and when I do He leads me in what to read, and when I read I get a unique message from Him, and it is always relevant. I pray to Him daily and He comforts my soul. I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me, and you sir have no authority to say otherwise.
As you know many denominations water down the Gospel where there is no repentance, no baptism, no receiving of the Holy Spirit, no study of scripture. Lets make sure Gab seeks the fullness of Christ and does not stop where he is at the moment.
Excuse me? I seek the fullness of Christ and seek His Kingdom first and always, and I will not be satisfied until I am in Heaven with Him. I study scripture, I have forgiveness of my sins, and not being perfect, when I do sin I do feel sorry and repent for what I have done. Why do I? Because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit.


Look if you don't want to believe the Holy Spirit is in me, then don't. You are wrong, God has shown me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I do. You do not know me, you do not know what has gone on in my life, and you certainly don't know my spiritual experiences from the Holy Spirit. If you did, you would know the truth. I am not a new believer to the faith, and I am not a man with weak faith, I have an unshakable faith that has been built up by God over the years.
Gab,
Gab did you study Acts 8 as in my last post to you or are you still in bed??

There are many good people like yourself in the NT that believed yet had not yet received the Holy Spirit.

Fred.

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Re: Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant bapti

#92

Post by FredFlanders » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:44 pm

cslewislover wrote:Fred, you are judging in the place of God, and not acknowledging what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians. In 12:7-10, Paul writes, "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good [he doesn't say "private" good here]. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues." One person is given this, one is given that, all determined by the Holy Spirit. It goes on to say that the body has many parts. He's asking them, and now you, to accept that different faithful believers - all part of Christ's body - have different functions and we will not all have the same gifts. It's amazing to me that Paul has to say the same things over and over (lol). He then asks if all are prophets, etc. He means no, they're not. He just explained that, and then he says "but," referring to not everyone being prophets etc., "eagerly desire the greater gifts." He wouldn't need to say that if everyone had the same gifts.

You told BW that you never said that believers don't need to speak in tongues to show their saved, but then you say that ALL Christians speak in tongues. Great double speak!! You're saying all believers need to speak in tongues, so that means you need to speak in tongues to demonstrate salvation. This is not biblical. And don't think that I don't believe in tongues as a gift for today. I am one of the smaller number Christians who believe the examples I have heard of tongues that have happened today, as happened in biblical times. But the examples of this happening are few and far between. They were for the salvation or edification of someone. I also tend to believe the studies done by linguists relating to groups of people who speak in tongues - that they are very simple and can't be considered languages. The examples I have heard of, that have worked in people's lives, are where someone speaks in a (real) foreign language that they do not know, and someone near them was helped by God through it. THAT is from Holy Spirit.

When a person comes to believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit enters them. This does not at all mean that they will speak in tongues then, or even ever. I am moving this thread to one of the tongues threads that already exist, since many people participated in it and there is a plethora of information there. There's no point in repeating everything. I know what you had posted involved more than one topic, but your OP ended with this subject, so that seemed to be your point.
Csle,

To understand 1 Cor 11 to 14 you nee to see the context of the letter Paul was writing to the Corinthians.

The Corinthians were once Gentiles who were not used to “Church' meetings. The women were interrupting the meetings by asking questions, many were talking over each other and at times they were all speaking in tongues at once. So Paul told the Corinthian women to ask their questions to their husbands at home and showed them how to operate the gifts in a meeting..

Paul said in 1 Cor 12 v 7 that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is given to ALL to profit the Church. All had some wisdom, some knowledge, some faith, all could speak in tongues, all could lay hands on the sick etc. But this should be done in an orderly fashion in meetings. One to speak on wisdom, one to speak on faith, some to lay hands on the sick, when you speak in tongues let it be 2 or 3 and let this be interpreted if there is some one to interpret etc. Usually in meetings the believers who were more accomplished in these gifts would operate them in the meetings (but all could to some degree) for the benefit of others in the church to help with their faith and growth in Christ. This was done so all things were done decently and in order.

Tongues are essential for our walk and growth in Christ. Paul knew this that is why he thanked God that he prayed in tongues (in his private time) more than anyone else in the Corinthian Church.

Paul also said that when he prayed in tongues that his mind was unfruitful or unable to comprehend the meaning. It is a prayer of Faith that gives us insight into the Kingdom of God.

Csle your quote “You told BW that you never said that believers don't need to speak in tongues to show their saved” is incorrect. I did not say this to BW.

I will not make a judgement on who God will save. But I will say this and that is to be in the Resurrection of the Saints you will need the Holy Spirit and walking after the Gospel of Christ to be in this resurrection. If you have the Holy Spirit you will be able to speak in tongues and have access to all the other gifts. If you do not have the Holy Spirit there is a chance you may be in the Second Resurrection after 1000 years and judged according to your works. (Rev 20)

When you come to Christ the Holy Spirit does not necessarily come into a person. It is a separate event after repentance. There are many NT scriptures that will show people who believe in Christ, yet have not received the Holy Spirit.


Fred

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#93

Post by FredFlanders » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:47 pm

sinnerbybirth wrote:I know this is a little late in the post but, isnt Mark 16: 9-20 missing from the oldest and more reliable manuscripts? y:-/
I know this is off track of the current debate but, since it was brought up I was wondering is someone could shed some light on these verses credibility.

Thanks You and GOD Bless
SBB,
I have no problem with Mark 16 v 16-20 as this fits with all other scriptures.

Fred.

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#94

Post by Gabrielman » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:04 pm

FredFlanders wrote: Gab,
Gab did you study Acts 8 as in my last post to you or are you still in bed??

There are many good people like yourself in the NT that believed yet had not yet received the Holy Spirit.

Fred.
Did you even read 1 Corinthians 12?
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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#95

Post by cslewislover » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:43 pm

Fred, it is wrong for you to tell Gabrielman that he doesn't have God's Holy Spirit when he says he does. I suppose all the Christians that have lived since the early church, until now, who never spoke in tongues, are in hell. Your view and interpretation, which is very much a minority interpretation, coupled with your disrespect for the other majority views on the gifts of the Spirit (tongues is one gift among several, it is not some special sign of salvation), makes me see your mindset as cultish.

In the Moody Handbook of Theology, tongues are viewed as a lesser gift (as I already discussed) and not foundational at all. It is the view of that publication that tongues is also said to be a temporary sign gift, based on a proper translation of 1 Cor 13:8 (p 284). Chuck Smith of the Calvary Chapels does not believe that speaking in tongues is a necessary gift of the Spirit. He speaks in tongues himself, as do many of the other Calvary pastors. Yet he says that pentecostals tend to ignore scripture and emphasize experience. They accept unscriptural doctrines. They confuse the baptism of the Spirit and the filling of the Spirit (p 677).

As for Gabrielman or anyone else who is confident in their salvation in Christ but who has not spoken in tongues, you can look to Romans 8:15b-16. ". . . you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." It's God's spirit himself that testifies to our salvation, not a public demonstration of a particular gift.

Fred, I'll be initiating a temporary ban on you. God knows people's hearts, not you. We cannot judge who is or will be saved, and who won't. If you want to discuss issues on this board, you are welcome to. If you are simply here to try and convert others to your views, this is not the place for you. You should review the board's purpose and guidelines.
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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#96

Post by RickD » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:22 am

cslewislover wrote:Fred, it is wrong for you to tell Gabrielman that he doesn't have God's Holy Spirit when he says he does. I suppose all the Christians that have lived since the early church, until now, who never spoke in tongues, are in hell. Your view and interpretation, which is very much a minority interpretation, coupled with your disrespect for the other majority views on the gifts of the Spirit (tongues is one gift among several, it is not some special sign of salvation), makes me see your mindset as cultish.

In the Moody Handbook of Theology, tongues are viewed as a lesser gift (as I already discussed) and not foundational at all. It is the view of that publication that tongues is also said to be a temporary sign gift, based on a proper translation of 1 Cor 13:8 (p 284). Chuck Smith of the Calvary Chapels does not believe that speaking in tongues is a necessary gift of the Spirit. He speaks in tongues himself, as do many of the other Calvary pastors. Yet he says that pentecostals tend to ignore scripture and emphasize experience. They accept unscriptural doctrines. They confuse the baptism of the Spirit and the filling of the Spirit (p 677).

As for Gabrielman or anyone else who is confident in their salvation in Christ but who has not spoken in tongues, you can look to Romans 8:15b-16. ". . . you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." It's God's spirit himself that testifies to our salvation, not a public demonstration of a particular gift.

Fred, I'll be initiating a temporary ban on you. God knows people's hearts, not you. We cannot judge who is or will be saved, and who won't. If you want to discuss issues on this board, you are welcome to. If you are simply here to try and convert others to your views, this is not the place for you. You should review the board's purpose and guidelines.
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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#97

Post by sinnerbybirth » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:09 pm

Hey Fred and FL

Hope I didn't ruffle your feather to much with my question. I guess its the Berean coming out in me. I for one will not test the LORD thy GOD by drinking any poison. I may be wrong on this. But, this is still a disputed ending to Mark.

Thanks again Guys

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Re: Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant bapti

#98

Post by B. W. » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:34 pm

amyweaver29 wrote:Not all who have been baptized with the Holy Spirit speak in tongues outrightly. Some takes time to manifest. Some are outrightly received. In whatever circumstance, we will have such gift in due time.

I didn't receive mine outrightly. It took awhile - at a time when I have learned vocal praising - that was the time I had mine. But, it has also to be nurtured. Otherwise, it will also be taken.

So, use your gifts once you have them to evangelize and let people come to know and experience God.

Regards and God bless,
Amy
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Thank you Amy - very good point!
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Re: Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant bapti

#99

Post by B. W. » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:43 pm

+
Fred - you just made a judgment on who God will save...
FredFlanders wrote: I will not make a judgement on who God will save. But I will say this and that is to be in the Resurrection of the Saints you will need the Holy Spirit and walking after the Gospel of Christ to be in this resurrection. If you have the Holy Spirit you will be able to speak in tongues and have access to all the other gifts. If you do not have the Holy Spirit there is a chance you may be in the Second Resurrection after 1000 years and judged according to your works. (Rev 20)...When you come to Christ the Holy Spirit does not necessarily come into a person. It is a separate event after repentance. There are many NT scriptures that will show people who believe in Christ, yet have not received the Holy Spirit.

Fred
What you are saying then is that without speaking in unknown tongues a person cannot be save. How can this be when earlier you stated that it is not necessary.

If speaking in unknown tongues is the only evidence that one has the Holy Ghost and then if one does not speak in unknown tongues leads a person to the great white throne judgment - that affects salvation.

Again - how do you define the Love of Christ - Fred?
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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#100

Post by FredFlanders » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:58 pm

sinnerbybirth wrote:Hey Fred and FL

Hope I didn't ruffle your feather to much with my question. I guess its the Berean coming out in me. I for one will not test the LORD thy GOD by drinking any poison. I may be wrong on this. But, this is still a disputed ending to Mark.

Thanks again Guys
SBB,

Picking up of snakes and drinking deadly poison were parables.

The spiritual meanings were that we have authority over Satan (snake) and discernment over deceit (deadly poison) and truth.

Fred.

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#101

Post by FredFlanders » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:05 pm

RickD wrote:
cslewislover wrote:Fred, it is wrong for you to tell Gabrielman that he doesn't have God's Holy Spirit when he says he does. I suppose all the Christians that have lived since the early church, until now, who never spoke in tongues, are in hell. Your view and interpretation, which is very much a minority interpretation, coupled with your disrespect for the other majority views on the gifts of the Spirit (tongues is one gift among several, it is not some special sign of salvation), makes me see your mindset as cultish.

In the Moody Handbook of Theology, tongues are viewed as a lesser gift (as I already discussed) and not foundational at all. It is the view of that publication that tongues is also said to be a temporary sign gift, based on a proper translation of 1 Cor 13:8 (p 284). Chuck Smith of the Calvary Chapels does not believe that speaking in tongues is a necessary gift of the Spirit. He speaks in tongues himself, as do many of the other Calvary pastors. Yet he says that pentecostals tend to ignore scripture and emphasize experience. They accept unscriptural doctrines. They confuse the baptism of the Spirit and the filling of the Spirit (p 677).

As for Gabrielman or anyone else who is confident in their salvation in Christ but who has not spoken in tongues, you can look to Romans 8:15b-16. ". . . you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." It's God's spirit himself that testifies to our salvation, not a public demonstration of a particular gift.

Fred, I'll be initiating a temporary ban on you. God knows people's hearts, not you. We cannot judge who is or will be saved, and who won't. If you want to discuss issues on this board, you are welcome to. If you are simply here to try and convert others to your views, this is not the place for you. You should review the board's purpose and guidelines.
:clap:
Rick there are many examples in scripture of people who believed yet had not received the Holy Spirit at that time.
Many get repentance mixed up with receiving the Holy Spirit. It is important that you go on and receive the Holy Spirit once you believe.

If the Apostles refused Jesus' command (Acts 1) to wait in Jerusalem for the promise of the Holy Spirit and went to another town would have they received the Holy Spirit?

Rick did the people of Samaria that had been healed, been baptized, believed in Christ have the Holy Spirit before Peter and John had prayed with them??

Acts 8 v 5Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Christ[a]there. 6When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. 7With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed. 8So there was great joy in that city.
9Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, 10and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, "This man is the divine power known as the Great Power." 11They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. 12But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. 14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[c] the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Fred

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#102

Post by cslewislover » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:21 pm

I don't know anyone who gets repentance mixed up with the receiving of the Holy Spirit. There were very many people who were saved in new testament times, who are not described in the NT. That is, they're salvation experience, or their experience with the Holy Spirit, is not described.

This is from Calvary Chapel Distinctives, p 66 (online pdf version: http://calvaryauroramedia.org/resources ... df/ccd.pdf. It presents a middle ground, and is biblically sound.

If people want to speak in tongues, we encourage them to do so in a private devotional
setting to assist in communicating their love, their praises, and their prayers to God. We
look to I Corinthians 14 as our biblical example. We don't insist that a person speak in
tongues as the primary evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We believe that there are
other evidences that are more credible than speaking in tongues. As Paul said, "Though I
speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as
sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." (I Corinthians 13:1). We don't emphasize tongues as
the primary manifestation of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but we look for love as the fruit
of the Spirit. I believe that we can stand on a solid Scriptural basis doing that and, at the
same time, encourage people to receive the gifts of tongues.
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Re: Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant bapti

#103

Post by FredFlanders » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:34 pm

B. W. wrote:+
Fred - you just made a judgment on who God will save...
FredFlanders wrote: I will not make a judgement on who God will save. But I will say this and that is to be in the Resurrection of the Saints you will need the Holy Spirit and walking after the Gospel of Christ to be in this resurrection. If you have the Holy Spirit you will be able to speak in tongues and have access to all the other gifts. If you do not have the Holy Spirit there is a chance you may be in the Second Resurrection after 1000 years and judged according to your works. (Rev 20)...When you come to Christ the Holy Spirit does not necessarily come into a person. It is a separate event after repentance. There are many NT scriptures that will show people who believe in Christ, yet have not received the Holy Spirit.

Fred
What you are saying then is that without speaking in unknown tongues a person cannot be save. How can this be when earlier you stated that it is not necessary.

If speaking in unknown tongues is the only evidence that one has the Holy Ghost and then if one does not speak in unknown tongues leads a person to the great white throne judgment - that affects salvation.

Again - how do you define the Love of Christ - Fred?
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BW, It is God's judgement, not mine on who will be saved.
You have to have the Holy Spirit to be in the first resurrection. That is God's judgement.
If you do not have the Holy Spirit then you may be saved in the second resurrection after the 1,000 years. So you do not even have to be Christian to be in this resurrection. That is God's judgement.
BW, when you get empowered with the Spirit of Christ then you will know what the Love of God is. Then I will not have to tell you.

Fred.

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#104

Post by zoegirl » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:36 pm

what a non answer...
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#105

Post by cslewislover » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:43 pm

How can we go on with Fred if he keeps judging, himself, that believers (believers that the Lord has clearly spoken to) here don't have the Spirit? It makes no sense.
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