Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#61

Post by B. W. » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:23 am

jlay wrote:B.W.

Thanks for clarifying the Joyce Meyer thing. You had me scared there for a minute.
No Problem,

There are many people who share the same names with more famous people...but are not famous or known :)
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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#62

Post by TallMan » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:11 pm

jlay wrote: I visited the link you provided and have read your posts. If the information is bad then whose fault is that?
Where do my posts or the link I provided say what you claim?
jlay wrote:Bottom line:
In your understanding. Can one have a saving faith and NOT speak in tongues, yes or no?
If you are not prepared to answer my questions following your previous assertions I know you are not interested in telling the truth.

Please do so then you will see for yourself the true answer to this question.
Warning: you will have to get to know those scriptures!

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#63

Post by zoegirl » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:50 pm

jlay wrote:Can one have a saving faith and NOT speak in tongues, yes or no?
It's a simple question, Tallman, and simple courtesy and basic debate etiquette means that you resond without silly prevarications. Yes or no....

I don't speak in tonges....I became a CHristian in 6th grade....I believed in CHrist...

Am I a Christian?
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#64

Post by cslewislover » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:57 pm

I'm getting to the point where I think I should lock the thread. What do you think? We have pointed out the verses and theology, but it doesn't seem to matter.
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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#65

Post by zoegirl » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:17 pm

It would be nice if Talman were honest with his answers before we do s :ebiggrin:
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#66

Post by B. W. » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:44 am

John 3 specifically states one must believe to be born again and no-where can I find that speaking in tongues prove one is saved, or evidence of salvation. Jesus did not say you must speak in tongues to be saved, He said, “whosoever believes…”

Also to note in 1 Corinthians 13:1 Paul mentions tongues of men and angels. Yes, all angels have a language, even the fallen ones. So be aware of this fact as well. Paul writes very clearly in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, 13, and 14 that not all will speak in tongues. I will post here what I wrote on another thread on this same subject.

“I do not want to write a long discourse so I'll try to be brief and at the end copy 1 Corinthians 12 from the ESV at the end of this for full reference:
1 Co 12:25-27, “…that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.”
It is tragic that that the doctrine of tongues has become so divisive. Originally they were not so but now are so that the body of Christ suffers.
1 Co 12:4-6, “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.”
We see that there are varieties of gifts, service, and activities all by the same Spirit, same Lord, the same God who empowers. Besides another Trinitarian proof text here stating that God wants to empower people, we are being told God's will in all this, in verse 7 is for the common Good of the body of Christ.
1 Co 12:7, “To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.”
If then for the common good, then it will be fought against by whom Paul writes about in Ephesians chapter 6 so that there will be division, strife, envy, and evil work so no common good is made known (manifested clearly).
1 Co 12:19, “If all were a single member, where would the body be?”
Since each person is a member of the body belongs where God places them as a hand, eye, mouth, ear, etc and etc the point is that different parts of the body should avoid quarreling over gifts, service, and activities. Each part and each member of their respective part has a duty and each individual is empowered to do his/her part as the Lord so wills.
1 Co 12:18, “But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose…'
Not all have the same gifts, services, or activities…
1 Co 12:27-30, “…Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.”
Now we come to tongues. Not all will speak with tongues but what are they? 1 Corinthians 13:1 gives us a hint:
1 Co 13:1, “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels…”
There are tongues of human language. God can use these however he so wills whether it be speaking in a human language never studied or known by the speaker to others who know the language spoken in, or someone who is a linguists, or whatever involving human speech. So be it as the Lord wills it to be used.

Next languages of angels or angelic languages — unknown tongues: used as praying in the Spirit (prayer), personal edification and spiritual growth, words of knowledge and wisdom for believers, etc and etc as however the Lord so wills it to be. Point to remember is that done without love, it is a bunch of noise and division causing.
1Co 12:8-10 , “For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, :9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.”
Some people keep strife and division alive by misapplying 1 Co 13:10, “but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.” Using this verse to insinuate that the gifts have passed away. If this be true, then we have no chance to reach the common good mention in 1 Co 12.

This verse does not mean that as:
Gills Commentary says:

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come,.... When perfect knowledge of God, of Christ, and of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven shall take place; which will not in this life, but in that which is to come. So the Jews say (r) that at the resurrection, upon the reunion of the soul and body,

"the children of men shall attain to דעה שלימה, "perfect knowledge";''

which is what the apostle refers to here:
The gifts, services, and activities have not passed away but are used by the Lord to instruct us all in how to manifest his Love realistically. Henceforth, the first lesson is to expose the lack of love we have toward one another. How? By the evidence of our strife, division, pride, etc that hinders God's love from maturing in our lives to its fullest.

The state of the modern church exemplified below:
1 Co 1:10, “I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”
So what is the tongue issue exposing in each of you as well as me? What is the Lord working in you? What do each of us need to repent of so we can walk that most excellent way? May the Lord grant you and I the words of wisdom and knowledge on this …

Why aren't there more gifts active today? The problem is not with God - Maybe it is our lack of love that hinders God's Spirit to move in our lives more fully and richly? So what is the tongue issue, or the healing issue, or the gift issues, service issues, activity issues showing each of us?”
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Contextual Reference quote of 1 Corinthians 12 below:
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.
1Co 12:2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
1Co 12:5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
1Co 12:6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
1Co 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
1Co 12:18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
1Co 12:19 If all were a single member, where would the body be?
1Co 12:20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
1Co 12:21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
1Co 12:22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
1Co 12:23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
1Co 12:24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it,
1Co 12:25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
1Co 12:26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#67

Post by jlay » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:03 am

Why aren't there more gifts active today? The problem is not with God - Maybe it is our lack of love that hinders God's Spirit to move in our lives more fully and richly? So what is the tongue issue, or the healing issue, or the gift issues, service issues, activity issues showing each of us?”
Perhaps it is because many are seeking the gift and not the giver.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#68

Post by TallMan » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:19 am

B. W. wrote: . . .Why aren't there more gifts active today? The problem is not with God - Maybe it is our lack of love that hinders God's Spirit to move in our lives more fully and richly? So what is the tongue issue, or the healing issue, or the gift issues, service issues, activity issues showing each of us?”
Who says they are not active today?
- people that don't see much of them because they are in groups that are wrong on receiving the Spirit and have other teachings that create doubts, stopping people moving forward.

They have replaced God's love, (which sticks to his way and believes all things), with man's love.

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Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant baptism.

#69

Post by FredFlanders » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:08 pm

It was okay for Hebrew infants to be circumcised as they were born into the house of God/Israel at their natural birth. This was not to wash away sin but a sign of their birthright/promise of God.
Gentiles could also covert to the Hebrew laws and be circumcised as a sign.

God in the OT spoke His laws/directions inside the temple made with hands.

The NT changed this covenant. We are not born into the House of God/Israel at our natural birth as the Hebrew's but through faith/obedience in Christ/His Word. Christ showed us the way into the Kingdom of God; Repentance, Baptism and infilling of the Holy Spirit. All these are different events and all necessary. This was Christ message (John 14) and His followers/disciples carried on with the same message. Baptism was not for washing away sin but a burial of our old nature/mind/beliefs/transgressions and willingness to follow in the life of Christ. If the believer in sincere then God would fulfill the promise Jesus made and send the Holy Spirit to enable the believer to do the same works/miracles as Him/Christ. In the OT circumcision was the sign of God's chosen people. In the NT, signs of God's chosen people/the Church were as Jesus said in Mark 16 v 16-20. This was the pattern right through the NT and you can see how the body of the Church operated in 1Cor 12 to 14. The Temple now became our bodies of whom God now speaks directly to through the Holy Spirit and does the works/miracles of Christ.

Baptism of infants is of no benefit what so ever, undermines the Word of God and is a delusion of the enemy/Satan to stop believers from entering into the New Covenant with God. God does not send His Holy Spirit unless the Word's Jesus spoke are fulfilled. This is what we do when we choose to follow Christ.

Nicodemus (who only understood natural birth and the birthright of the Hebrews) had the same problems understanding what Jesus meant when He said in John 3 v 1-12, Except a man be born again he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God...... Verily, Verily, Except a man be born of water (immersed in water) and of the Spirit (immersed/filled with the Spirit) he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. You see here that there is no entry into the Kingdom of God at natural birth as in the OT covenant unless the NT covenant is fulfilled by having faith/obedience in following the ministry/works of Christ. We can only follow the ministry/works of Christ by a Spiritual birth.

There is no Spiritual birth in infant baptism and most adult baptisms if you believe it is to wash away sin. The Baptism was a rebirth into the life of Christ. If you know this then expect the power of the Holy Spirit to come upon you to fulfill Christ ministry........And yes you will also speak in tongues and have access to all the gifts, the same as Christ did.

Fred.

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Re: Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant bapti

#70

Post by cslewislover » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:52 am

There are a number of threads on this already. It says clearly in the bible that not all have all the gifts. Some have some gifts, some have others. Salvation belongs to those who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, and they will have love as He has love. Christ is not looking at our list of gifts as some kind-of entry into heaven requirement. It isn't up to a human to judge whether a person is saved or not, by looking at that person's gifts. This whole attitude goes against the principles that Christ taught, IMO. We are not to judge in that way.
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Re: Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant bapti

#71

Post by Gabrielman » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:31 pm

FredFlanders wrote:And yes you will also speak in tongues and have access to all the gifts, the same as Christ did.
I must slightly disagree with this statement, not everyone who is saved will speak in tongues. I am saved and have the Holy Spirit in me and I don't speak in tongues but the Holy Spirit has worked through me. So when you get saved you will not necessarily speak in tongues. You will have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but not everyone will receive the gift of speaking in tongues.
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Re: Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant bapti

#72

Post by FredFlanders » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:07 pm

Gabrielman wrote:
FredFlanders wrote:And yes you will also speak in tongues and have access to all the gifts, the same as Christ did.
I must slightly disagree with this statement, not everyone who is saved will speak in tongues. I am saved and have the Holy Spirit in me and I don't speak in tongues but the Holy Spirit has worked through me. So when you get saved you will not necessarily speak in tongues. You will have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but not everyone will receive the gift of speaking in tongues.
Gab,
I cannot agree with this statement. Anyone who has the Holy Spirit can speak in tongues and also has access to all the other gifts.
When Jesus said in Mark 16 v 16-20, “that these signs shall follow them that believe”, “he word “follow” means “to accompany one where ever they go”.
When the Holy Spirit works through some one then the gifts manifest such as we read in the Corinthian Church (1 Cor 12 to 14)

Gab I am not quite sure what you mean when you say the Holy Spirit works through you. Maybe you can explain how?

Fred.

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Re: Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant bapti

#73

Post by FredFlanders » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:19 pm

cslewislover wrote:There are a number of threads on this already. It says clearly in the bible that not all have all the gifts. Some have some gifts, some have others. Salvation belongs to those who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, and they will have love as He has love. Christ is not looking at our list of gifts as some kind-of entry into heaven requirement. It isn't up to a human to judge whether a person is saved or not, by looking at that person's gifts. This whole attitude goes against the principles that Christ taught, IMO. We are not to judge in that way.
Csle,
Accepting Christ as your Lord and Savoir is meaningless unless you follow through with what Jesus told us to do. Repentance, Baptism, receiving His Holy Spirit and then continuing in the Spirit of Christ.
Christ is the one who judges. Mark 16 v 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Christ's Love is manifested through the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Csle, what type of “Love” are you talking about?

Fred.

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Re: Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant bapti

#74

Post by cslewislover » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:19 pm

Some are given some gifts, some others, AFTER Christ is accepted as their savior (after they are already saved). After someone is already saved, the Holy Spirit works with them to promote repentance and works for the Lord's kingdom. But not all speak in tongues. Christ loves all that are his, and his followers need to do the same and not judge or put on a burden that is man-formulated. John 17:20-26

In Corinthians 12:7-11, Paul write that "a" manifestation of the Spirit is given each person, and then he provides the list of gifts (languages and their interpretation are at the bottom). He doesn't say that "the" manifestation of the Spirit is tongues, and after that you'll get other gifts. No, he gives a list again in 27-30, probably in order of relevance. I can say that because in the next verse, 31, he says to desire the "greater" gifts. Which are those? Well, he just gave them in order, and again, tongues is last. (See 1 Corinthians 12:1-31). The scripture is pretty clear.

These threads have already discussed the matter if you wish to look at them and maybe post at one of them.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... s&start=45

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... it=tongues

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... it=tongues

You can't judge if Gabrielman's spiritual experiences are not from the Holy Spirit. I also have had a number of experiences with the Holy Spirit and they did not involve speaking in tongues. God works to sanctify us, and to further his kingdom. This takes all kinds of gifts and help from the Spirit. Tongues is rarely needed. I have absolutely no desire to share my experiences with you since you have a belief that I believe goes against God's teaching, as provided in 1 Corinthians, especially.
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Re: Why God allowed infant circumcision but not infant bapti

#75

Post by FredFlanders » Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:12 pm

cslewislover wrote:Some are given some gifts, some others, AFTER Christ is accepted as their savior (after they are already saved). After someone is already saved, the Holy Spirit works with them to promote repentance and works for the Lord's kingdom. But not all speak in tongues. Christ loves all that are his, and his followers need to do the same and not judge or put on a burden that is man-formulated. <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/John%2017.20-26" target=_blank lbsReference="John 17.20-26|ESV">John 17:20-26</A>

In Corinthians 12:7-11, Paul write that "a" manifestation of the Spirit is given each person, and then he provides the list of gifts (languages and their interpretation are at the bottom). He doesn't say that "the" manifestation of the Spirit is tongues, and after that you'll get other gifts. No, he gives a list again in 27-30, probably in order of relevance. I can say that because in the next verse, 31, he says to desire the "greater" gifts. Which are those? Well, he just gave them in order, and again, tongues is last. (See <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... %2012.1-31" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.1-31|ESV">1 Corinthians 12:1-31</A>). The scripture is pretty clear.

These threads have already discussed the matter if you wish to look at them and maybe post at one of them.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... s&start=45

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... it=tongues

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... it=tongues

You can't judge if Gabrielman's spiritual experiences are not from the Holy Spirit. I also have had a number of experiences with the Holy Spirit and they did not involve speaking in tongues. God works to sanctify us, and to further his kingdom. This takes all kinds of gifts and help from the Spirit. Tongues is rarely needed. I have absolutely no desire to share my experiences with you since you have a belief that I believe goes against God's teaching, as provided in 1 Corinthians, especially.
Csle,

You are miss interpreting scripture.

First of all repentance comes from us before baptism in water and before we receive the Holy Spirit. They are all separate events. The Holy Spirit promotes/manifests the gifts given to us through our new life in Christ.

To understand 1 Cor 11 to 14 you nee to see the context of the letter Paul was writing to the Corinthians.

The Corinthians were once Gentiles who were not used to “Church' meetings. The women were interrupting the meetings by asking questions, many were talking over each other and at times they were all speaking in tongues at once.

Paul told the Corinthian women to ask their questions to their husbands at home.

Paul said in 1 Cor 12 v 7 that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is given to ALL to profit the Church. All had some wisdom, some knowledge, some faith, all could speak in tongues, all could lay hands on the sick etc. But this should be done in an orderly fashion in meetings. One to speak on wisdom, one to speak on faith, some to lay hands on the sick, when you speak in tongues let it be 2 or 3 and let this be interpreted if there is some one to interpret etc. Usually in meetings the believers who were more accomplished in these gifts would operate them in the meetings (but all could to some degree) for the benefit of others in the church to help with their faith and growth in Christ. This was done so all things were done decently and in order.

Tongues are essential for our walk and growth in Christ. Paul knew this that is why he thanked God that he prayed in tongues (in his private time) more than anyone else in the Corinthian Church.

I will look at the other posts as well, thanks.

Csle,

Gabrielman's experiences are not from the Holy Spirit but from his natural concept of and who God is. Not that I want to condemn Gabrielman in any way but to lead him into the Kingdom of God and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Fred.

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