Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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BavarianWheels
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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#31

Post by BavarianWheels » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:28 am

jlay wrote:One is not a Christian because they belong to the right church. You are not "in" because you are Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc.

One is part of "the church" because of the work Christ has done in them. If speaking in tongues is a result of genuine salvation that is necessary to "prove" one is a Christian, then you can bet I want it. However, I fail to see how careful examination of the whole counsel of God confirms Tallman's position. To this point I have asked him three times to provide me with a testimony of his experience speaking tongues in a way that harmonizes with an Acts 2 event. So far, nothing. He has also skipped past specific scriptural issues I have posted here.

Could you imagine meeting Christ on that day. You gave him your life. Followed Him. Loved Him. You came to Him with the burdens of your sin, asking Him to wash you clean according to what is promised, that whoever beleives in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. The flow of God was real in your life. He was your source, your supply, your redeemer. And then he says, "Sorry, you never spoke in tongues. Off to Hell with you."
Actually, He'll say, "Sorry, you weren't Adventist..."

;)
.
.

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#32

Post by cslewislover » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:09 pm

BavarianWheels wrote: Actually, He'll say, "Sorry, you weren't Adventist..."

;)
.
.
:lol: You're cracking me up today.
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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#33

Post by TallMan » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:21 pm

Zašto? wrote: . . .(by the way I don't think Jesus "spoke in tongues") ;)
There is a good reason for that, you don't seem to know it y:-?

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#34

Post by jlay » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:06 am

Tallman,

Still waiting.

Now I have asked four times provide me with a testimony of his experience speaking tongues in a way that harmonizes with an Acts 2 event.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#35

Post by TallMan » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:13 pm

jlay wrote:Tallman,
Still waiting.
Now I have asked four times provide me with a testimony of his experience speaking tongues in a way that harmonizes with an Acts 2 event.
We had some African people visit our meeting in Richmond, London and recognised a gift of tongues as being an African dialect.
It was talking about God, I can't remember the details.

So, it can happen where the unusual conditions of Pentecost are met.

If you are sincere in your desire for harmony with the scriptures you will be careful to preach that it is known precisely when people receive Jesus by receiving His Spirit, by the only way given in the New Testament.

You will also want to be in a church that operates meetings as detailed by God in 1 Corinthians 11 to 14. . . .
This details that 2 or 3 should operate a gift of tongues, each followed by a gift of interpretation, 2 or 3 prophecies, a bible-based talk (words of wisdom and knowledge), prayer for needs (gifts of faith and healing), songs, testimony etc.

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." (14:37)

Jlay, tell us if/how people are assumed to have "received Jesus" where you worship, and what actually happens in the meetings?
Maybe you could give the website of the church?

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#36

Post by cslewislover » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:37 pm

The following article is from this web page: http://www.carm.org/religious-movements ... -salvation

Is speaking in tongues a necessary sign of salvation?

"The Oneness Pentecostal people teach that speaking in tongues is a necessary manifestation of the Holy Spirit and without it a person is not truly saved.1 It is so important to them that one ex-oneness person told me that her church had altar calls for people to come up and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit so they could speak in tongues. She said she never saw an alter call for people to come up and receive Jesus as savior. But, this is only one example and may not be typical.

We see in Acts that many people who became Christians immediately spoke in tongues (Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6). But is it a necessary sign of salvation? No. It isn't. Consider the following verses in 1 Cor. 12.

* 1 Cor. 12:7-11, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."
* 1 Cor. 12:29-30, "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

We can see that the Holy Spirit gives gifts as He desires. He distributes them upon His people in the church as He wills (1 Cor. 12:11). It states in 1 Cor. 12:7-11 that different people have different gifts and we see in verses 29-31 that not all speak in tongues. Now, the Oneness person will state that all are supposed to speak in tongues, but that not all do. They maintain that speaking in tongues is a necessary sign/gift of true salvation and that a true believer will speak in tongues. But, that is not what the text says.

Paul asks the questions: Are all apostles? No. Are all prophets? No. Are all teachers? No. In other words, within the body of Christ, different people are called by God to have different gifts. If someone states that all are supposed to speak in tongues, but that not all do, then are all supposed to be apostles as well but not all are? Are all called to be prophets? Are all called to be teachers? No. Likewise, not all are called by God to speak in tongues.

It is simple. Not all speak in tongues because God doesn't give the gift to everyone. Speaking in tongues is not the sign of salvation, but a sign. If anything, the fruit of the indwelling Spirit of God as listed in Gal. 5:22-23 is the sign of salvation. I would ask the Oneness person if the following fruit are what the true signs of salvation are in his or her life rather than speaking in tongues:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law" (Gal. 5:22-23).

So, again I ask. What is the biblical sign of salvation, tongues or the fruit of the Spirit?

1. 1. This paper is not dealing with the issue of whether or not the charismatic gifts are still in operation, but will assume, for this paper that they are."

* * *
Tallman wrote:
cslewislover wrote:Besides that, there was a thread where this was already being discussed, with long posts by me and others in there, which now Tallman can seem to ignore.
For anyone who was not following that other thread, it is here:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... &start=120


Have you ignored the points I made?

cslewislover wrote:Regarding false prophets, there are also those who fake it [tongues], to fit in. I know someone who did that, and the rest of the people there thought it was real tongues. :shakehead: So you tell me how you judge. Lol. To judge in this manner, then, is man-based and fallible.


I haven't seen that you answered this. And Jlay was asking you about your own experience, not those of some others. I have heard of that happening too.
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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#37

Post by jlay » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:47 pm

We had some African people visit our meeting in Richmond, London and recognised a gift of tongues as being an African dialect.
It was talking about God, I can't remember the details.
Let me get this straight. Speaking in tongues is the only TRUE sign of salvation, yet you can't provide an example of where you have personally done what is listed in Acts 2, which we know to be genuine tongues. And the one you do mention, you can't remember details. Gotcha.


I beleive as the Bible teaches. When we are saved, we are baptized into one body by one spirit.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#38

Post by TellMe~Ily » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:11 pm

Are you really saying you have to speak in tounges in order to be saved? O_o
Wasn't it Jesus who said we can't do anything to earn our way into Heaven except have faith in Him?
I mean don't get me wrong,speaking in tounges is a woderful gift,but I don't think it's needed for salvation.

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#39

Post by TallMan » Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:51 pm

TellMe~Ily wrote:Are you really saying you have to speak in tounges in order to be saved? O_o
Wasn't it Jesus who said we can't do anything to earn our way into Heaven except have faith in Him?
I mean don't get me wrong,speaking in tounges is a woderful gift,but I don't think it's needed for salvation.
I'm saying you will speak in tongues when you receive His Salvation by receiving His Spirit.

Tongues is a work of God, what His Spirit does whe you receive Him, not a work we do (we can't).
Jesus said "believers on him would receive this (Mark 16:15-18, John 7:37-39), they all did (Acts 2:4, 33, 39; 10:44-48)

"The gift of tongues" refers specifically to the meetings-use of tongues, *giving* to the church, as explained above.

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#40

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:02 pm

TM - whether or not your reasoning matched my comments, you still didn't answer my question. Since you believe that all people who are saved will speak in tongues, then I expect that when you "spoke in tongues," then everyone around you heard the gospel in his or her own language, as per Acts 2. Did they hear the gospel in their own native tongue or not? If not, then by your own doctrine, you didn't speak in tongues as did the people at Pentecost, and therefore, you haven't yet been saved.

I do, though, have good news for you, friend. Your church's website says the Gospel is found in Acts 2. We can talk about that verse in detail later, but may I direct your attention to John 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but has everlasting life.

THAT is the Gospel, my friend. What must a person do to be saved? They must place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. In the words of Paul, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved!" (Acts 16:31). There is nothing in these verses, contrary to your church's teachings, that a person must repent of their sins, promise to obey Jesus, and be baptized. If your church is correct, then John 3:16 and Acts 16:31 present false gospels, for it is NOT true that whosoever believes is saved, nor is it true that if a person simply believes on Jesus Christ, than they are saved.

Or, let's look at John 20:31, "These things are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His Name." Whether you take "these things" in the verse to refer to the whole of the book or simply that of chapter 20 (as I do), the point is clear: John wrote for the purpose of telling people HOW to have eternal life. And yet, I see nothing about repentance in his gospel. In fact, did you know that in the Gospel of John, the word "repent" doesn't appear EVEN A SINGLE TIME??? But, did you know that the word for "faith" appears almost 100 times?

The sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ. Anyone who preaches anything else--anything in addition to faith in Christ--is teaching "a gospel contrary to that which you have received" (Gal 1:8,9) and is condemned. I'd like to invite you, TM, to reject the legalism you've been placed under and put your faith in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ ALONE for your salvation, not in your repentance or your baptism. You can know for SURE you are saved, no matter what. All you have to do is take God at His Word. Again, He says:

"The man who receives [Christ's testimony] certifies that God is true" ~ John 3:33

And that testimony? "Whoever believes in the Son has everlasting life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)

TM, won't you take Christ at His word, that every single person who simply places their faith in Christ is saved, or will you continue to deny His testimony and claim that other conditions are necessary, such as baptism and repentance? Who should you believe, men who concocted your church's doctrine, or Christ Himself, who has spoken permanently on this matter? Trust Christ, my friend, not mere men. You can know for sure you are saved. All you have to do is believe Jesus' words in John 3:16.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#41

Post by TallMan » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:43 pm

Jac3510 wrote:TM - whether or not your reasoning matched my comments, you still didn't answer my question. Since you believe that all people who are saved will speak in tongues, then I expect that when you "spoke in tongues," then everyone around you heard the gospel in his or her own language, as per Acts 2.
What version do you read?
I never read a version that says everyone, or indeed anyone, heard the gospel when they overheard people speaking in tongues.
Jac3510 wrote:John 3:16 . . . THAT is the Gospel, my friend.
only to someone who understand what it means to believe on Jesus and how he saves.[/quote]
v16 follows verses that explain the need to be born of the Spirit and how you hear the sound theerof with everyone.
Jac3510 wrote:What must a person do to be saved? . . .(Acts 16:31).
as above, that's why the very next verse says they "spoke the word of The Lord" to them, i.e. they explained what it means to believe on Jesus, what Jesus says will happen to true believers.
Jac3510 wrote:Or, let's look at John 20:31, "These things are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His Name." Whether you take "these things" in the verse to refer to the whole of the book or simply that of chapter 20 (as I do),
Earlier in John 20 Jesus commands them to receive the Holy Spirit . . his final command before he left earth to return to The Father from where he shed forth the Spirit, wheerby peiople receive His Life, his salvation.
You neither understand, believe, obey or are faithful to this.

As such you remain "in the flesh", your service to God is "dead works", by definition.

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#42

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:46 pm

Whether the gospel or not, they each heard them speaking in their own languages. Now, did the people around you hear you preaching in their native tongue?

As far as the rest goes, I'm not arguing over the effects of receiving the Holy Spirit. I'm saying that John nowhere says you have to repent and be baptized, which your church insists upon. If you say those are necessary, you are saying John 3:16, 20:31, 6:47, etc. are simply false gospels. You are adding to what one has to do.

Just believe Jesus, man. Don't add to it. As it stands now, you are calling Jesus a liar. He said all you have to do is trust Him, and you are saying, "No, it takes more. You also have to do this and that."
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#43

Post by TallMan » Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:38 pm

Jac3510 wrote:Whether the gospel or not,
Obviously not as they were all left in doubt and confusion (vv12-14). Then Peter deemed it necessary to preach the gospel to them, then they understood.
Jac3510 wrote:they each heard them speaking in their own languages. Now, did the people around you hear you preaching in their native tongue?
No because the people around me weren't from many nations, and tongues isn't for preaching.
Who were the people in Acts 10:44-46 and 19v6 preaching to?
Jac3510 wrote:As far as the rest goes, I'm not arguing over the effects of receiving the Holy Spirit. I'm saying that John nowhere says you have to repent and be baptized, which your church insists upon. If you say those are necessary, you are saying John 3:16, 20:31, 6:47, etc. are simply false gospels. You are adding to what one has to do.

Just believe Jesus, man. Don't add to it. As it stands now, you are calling Jesus a liar. He said all you have to do is trust Him, and you are saying, "No, it takes more. You also have to do this and that."
You are not open to correction on what it means to believe on Jesus.
My job is to find people that are open to correction from the scriptures, bye for now.

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#44

Post by Jac3510 » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:05 pm

No because the people around me weren't from many nations, and tongues isn't for preaching.
Who were the people in Acts 10:44-46 and 19v6 preaching to?
I don't care if they were all from YOUR nation. My question is whether or not they heard you preaching/speaking whatever you want to call it in THEIR language, as did those at Pentecost:

Acts 2:7-8, "Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?"

If each person around you could not be amazed that each could hear you "in his own native language," then your experience doesn't match Pentecost, and by your doctrine you are not saved.

Thankfully, your doctrine is false, and there is a true Gospel that you can believe.
You are not open to correction on what it means to believe on Jesus.
Sadly, it seems it is you, my lost friend, who are not open to the correction of the Word. It is a dangerous thing to call Jesus a liar, for the one who does not accept His testimony is condemned (John 3:17-18). I would strongly suggest you seek God very carefully in this. Your eternal soul may well hang in the balance.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Did you "receive Jesus" the Jesus way, or man's way?

#45

Post by TallMan » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:43 am

Jac3510 wrote: . . . Your eternal soul may well hang in the balance.
Ah, the pagan eternal soul doctrine.

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