Was the West founded on Christian Values?

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#76

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:15 pm

So black African men were deliberately excluded from the terms "Mankind" and "all Men" in the eyes of "their Creator" ?
Danny, the way I see it, is either the supporters of slavery, and slave owners that signed the DOI, didn't really agree with what they signed, or they didn't believe black Africans were men in the same sense they were.
From what I've learned, the belief of the superiority of the white man was much more prevalent back then.
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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#77

Post by DannyM » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:25 am

RickD wrote:
So black African men were deliberately excluded from the terms "Mankind" and "all Men" in the eyes of "their Creator" ?
Danny, the way I see it, is either the supporters of slavery, and slave owners that signed the DOI, didn't really agree with what they signed, or they didn't believe black Africans were men in the same sense they were.
From what I've learned, the belief of the superiority of the white man was much more prevalent back then.
Hmm...you'd have to a long way to show they "didn't really" beieve what they signed, Rick, or that when they mention "Men" and "Mankind" "in the eyes of their Creator", black Africans were excluded from this. I respect your view, Rick, but I can't see nto the hearts of men.
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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#78

Post by RickD » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:13 am

DannyM wrote:
RickD wrote:
So black African men were deliberately excluded from the terms "Mankind" and "all Men" in the eyes of "their Creator" ?
Danny, the way I see it, is either the supporters of slavery, and slave owners that signed the DOI, didn't really agree with what they signed, or they didn't believe black Africans were men in the same sense they were.
From what I've learned, the belief of the superiority of the white man was much more prevalent back then.
Hmm...you'd have to a long way to show they "didn't really" beieve what they signed, Rick, or that when they mention "Men" and "Mankind" "in the eyes of their Creator", black Africans were excluded from this. I respect your view, Rick, but I can't see nto the hearts of men.
Danny, I would lean to believing that some of the DOI signers(the ones that owned chattel slaves), didn't believe the slaves were equal to themselves. I've read enough that leads me to believe racism and the supremacy of the white man of European descent, was quite common in those days.
Danny, I moved from New England to NE Florida, and have experienced first hand, the racism towards blacks the exists still today in certain parts of the south.
I began studying because there are quite a few people here that fly rebel battle flags in or on their trucks. My studying led me to believe that racism, especially in the south was very common.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#79

Post by RickD » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:21 am

Danny, we don't need to "see into the hearts of men" as you say. When we read the words of certain people, and experience racism first hand, that is enough for me.
Danny, racism against blacks is different here in the us than anywhere else. This kfc commercial caused quite an uproar in the us because it was seen as racist here. In Australia, it wasn't racist:
http://mashable.com/2010/01/10/kfc-ad-racist-youtube/
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#80

Post by Grizz_1 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:41 am

We have to remember that the FF's did not invent slavery or bring it to this country. It was an English institution.
They were born into a country where slavery was well established ,they grew up with it, you could argue that our very economy (unfortunately) was based on slavery. I find it quite amazing that from the time in 1787 when we became the United States of America, to 1860 when slavery was abolished (not racism, unfortunately) a mere 73 years. A practice that was so ingrained in their lives and the economy of this country, a practice that was established here in 1619. By 1800 (13 years after Constitution) it was a pretty even split between Free states and slave states, mostly based between North and South.

There were movements very early after our independence to eliminate slavery as you can see below, Did it happen right away, no. Could you rightly expect it to end right away? IMHO no. But you have to acknowledge that the abolish ion of slavery was always on the agenda. I don't think it would have happened as quickly as it did if we were not a Christian nation.


1775

Founding of the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery (PAS), the world's first antislavery society and the first
Quaker anti-slavery society. Benjamin Franklin becomes Honorary President of the Society in 1787.

1787

Northwest Ordinance bans slavery in the newly organized territory ceded by Virginia.

Founding in London of the Society for Effecting the Abolition of the Slave Trade.

Philadelphia free blacks establish the Free African Society in Philadelphia, the first independent black organization and a mutual
aid society.

The ratified U.S. Constitution allows a male slave to count as three-fifths of a man in determining representation in the House of
Representatives.

The Constitution sets 1808 as the earliest date for the national government to ban the slave trade.

Rhode Island outlaws the slave trade.

William Wilberforce becomes the Parliamentary leader and begins a ten-year campaign to abolish Britain's slave trade.

1794

Founding of the American Convention for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery, a joining several state and regional antislavery societies
into a national organization to promote abolition. Conference held in Philadelphia.

The first independent black churches in America (St. Thomas African Episcopal Church and Bethel Church) established in Philadelphia by Absalom Jones and Richard Allen, respectively, as an act of self-determination and a protest against segregation.

Congress enacts the federal Slave Trade Act of 1794 prohibiting American vessels to transport slaves to any foreign country from
outfitting in American ports.

1800

Absalom Jones and other Philadelphia blacks petition Congress against the slave trade and against the fugitive slave act of 1793.

Off the coast of Cuba, the U.S. naval vessel Ganges captures two American vessels, carrying 134 enslaved Africans, for violating the
1794 Slave Trade Act and brings them to Philadelphia for adjudication in federal court by Judge Richard Peters. Peters turns the
custody of the Africans over to the Pennsylvania Abolition Society, which attempts to assimilate the Africans into Pennsylvania using
the indenture system with many local Quakers serving as sponsors.

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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#81

Post by Grizz_1 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:14 am

RickD wrote:Grizz, would you then say that any Mormon who claims he's a Christian, is indeed a Christian?


The new Mormon marketing methods claim that Mormons are Christians too. I've seen many of their commercials in my area. According to you, we are not to judge the claims of those who claim to be Christian. I just want to be sure what you're saying here.
I don't really know what Mormons believe. But that does not matter. If someone says they are a Christian, a Mormon, an Anglican or a cucumber for that matter I'm in no position to judge them nor do I think its my place.

Look, let me explain a little more about my beliefs on this. I will use myself as an example because I'm the only person that knows what I think. I claim to be a Christian. Ok so what! I can claim whatever I want. What you or anyone else thinks about my claim is irrelevant and inconsequential to my claim. I mean really, what does it matter if you or anyone else think my claim to be false? There is only God that matters in relation to my claim. His opinion on the matter is the only opinion that has consequence! What I think means nothing.

Am I really a Christian...all the time? Am I "Christ-like" every day...every hour...every minute? I'm not. There are times when I'm a Christian and there are times, more than I care to admit, that I can make no such claim. I strive twords being a Christian. I'm not sure if we ever get there. I don't know if being a Christian is a destination attainable in this life or a journey, that upon completion, when the train pulls into the station so-to-speak, we find out what our final destination will be. Will I succeed in my quest, will my I reach the destination I want? Only God knows.

I can't in good conscience look at someone else and say whether they are or are not Christians. If they claim to be, so be it. I can only look at myself.

So IMHO only God knows about the Mormons, the Anglicans or the cucumbers. Not me.

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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#82

Post by RickD » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:50 pm

Am I really a Christian...all the time? Am I "Christ-like" every day...every hour...every minute? I'm not. There are times when I'm a Christian and there are times, more than I care to admit, that I can make no such claim. I strive twords being a Christian. I'm not sure if we ever get there. I don't know if being a Christian is a destination attainable in this life or a journey, that upon completion, when the train pulls into the station so-to-speak, we find out what our final destination will be. Will I succeed in my quest, will my I reach the destination I want? Only God knows.
Do you have the Holy Spirit inside you? 2 Corinthians 1:22 says that if you have the Holy Spirit in you, He is a deposit guaranteeing what is to come. A Christian is someone who God transforms by His power. It's not something we strive for in the sense of anything we can do to save ourselves. God has already done everything to insure our salvation. All we have to do is believe on what He did through Christ.(John 3:16)
1 John 5:13 says how we know we have eternal life.

You can know if you have eternal life. Do you?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#83

Post by DannyM » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:38 am

RickD wrote:Danny, we don't need to "see into the hearts of men" as you say. When we read the words of certain people, and experience racism first hand, that is enough for me.
Danny, racism against blacks is different here in the us than anywhere else. This kfc commercial caused quite an uproar in the us because it was seen as racist here. In Australia, it wasn't racist:
http://mashable.com/2010/01/10/kfc-ad-racist-youtube/
How is playing to a harmless stereotype for an advert racist, Rick? I don't really know why you have posted this on here. You are ultimately claiming to know men's hearts by certain actions taken. You do not. Are these Australian producers racist? This appears to be a sort of crusade for you, Rick. If you want to say that the founding fathers didn't really include black Africans in their mention of "Mankind" "in the eyes of their Creator" then you need to provide the extraordinary evidence which the claim requires. Putting out some bizarre controversy over an advert doesn't seem to be the way, Bro.
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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#84

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:18 am

Danny, the kfc video I posted was to show that racism against blacks is different here than anywhere else. The video is Australian, and was meant to be a spoof on one fan who was seated in a section with fans from the opposing team.

There were many people here who spoke out against kfc, because they perceived it as racist. One stereotype here is that blacks eat fried chicken. My point was just to show that racism of blacks is ingrained in our culture to such a point, that people see racism, where there is none.
Danny, I assure you it's no "crusade" for me. I'm simply pointing out the inconsistencies between what some ff claimed to believe(ALL men are created equal), and what they actually practiced(black Africans were not equal).
Danny, logic tells me that if someone makes a statement that all men are equal, and all men have the right to live their lives free, and then these men oppress certain people, then that means 1 of possibly 2 things. IMO, logically it means either they either believed what they wrote, that all men should live as free men, but African slaves aren't really men, so they don't count. Or, they really didn't mean what they wrote. Is there another logical conclusion I'm missing?

Danny, I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies between what SOME founding fathers preached, and what they actually practiced.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#85

Post by DannyM » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:57 am

But Rick, I don't see it as racist in the slightest. You’d have to show that there are racist overtones for it to be deemed racist. On its own it is a stereotype and a bit of fun. I actually find it a rather old and outdated ‘joke’, and if it is recent and common then the Aussies need new material. I have black friends from childhood who we would rib about the “chicken and rice and peas and ting,” as their West Indian parents used to knock that up all the time. And delicious it was too; while we would be ribbed for being pasty faced and having “milk bottle legs“; this is banter among solid mates… the truth being that where I come from the fried chicken thing is actually very accurate. Where’s the racism in intimating, for the sake of a joke, that black people eat fried chicken? It might be perpetuating a false stereotype where you come from, but I really don’t see any racist overtones at all here.
RickD wrote:Danny, logic tells me that if someone makes a statement that all men are equal, and all men have the right to live their lives free, and then these men oppress certain people, then that means 1 of possibly 2 things. IMO, logically it means either they either believed what they wrote, that all men should live as free men, but African slaves aren't really men, so they don't count. Or, they really didn't mean what they wrote. Is there another logical conclusion I'm missing?
The inconsistencies of some founding fathers is glaring. But the ideal remains and in the end it did see through an end to slavery. The ideal was collective and the individual inconsistencies of some won’t negate the ideal. How can an individual’s internal and external inconsistencies negate the ideal itself? I’m sure the path was not a very smooth one.
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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#86

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:27 am

Danny, in its proper context, the video isn't racist IMO. When Americans view the video, it's seen through US colored glasses so to speak. The Australian culture certainly isn't the same as the American culture.
The inconsistencies of some founding fathers is glaring. But the ideal remains and in the end it did see through an end to slavery. The ideal was collective and the individual inconsistencies of some won’t negate the ideal. How can an individual’s internal and external inconsistencies negate the ideal itself? I’m sure the path was not a very smooth one.
Danny, I don't disagree with this on the surface. The problem I see, is that I don't think you really grasp the effect slavery has had on this country. It was the way of life here. The entire economy of the south was run on the institution of slave labor. Money was more important than the freedom of certain people.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#87

Post by Grizz_1 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:49 am

RickD wrote:
Am I really a Christian...all the time? Am I "Christ-like" every day...every hour...every minute? I'm not. There are times when I'm a Christian and there are times, more than I care to admit, that I can make no such claim. I strive twords being a Christian. I'm not sure if we ever get there. I don't know if being a Christian is a destination attainable in this life or a journey, that upon completion, when the train pulls into the station so-to-speak, we find out what our final destination will be. Will I succeed in my quest, will my I reach the destination I want? Only God knows.
Do you have the Holy Spirit inside you? 2 Corinthians 1:22 says that if you have the Holy Spirit in you, He is a deposit guaranteeing what is to come. A Christian is someone who God transforms by His power. It's not something we strive for in the sense of anything we can do to save ourselves. God has already done everything to insure our salvation. All we have to do is believe on what He did through Christ.(John 3:16)
1 John 5:13 says how we know we have eternal life.

You can know if you have eternal life. Do you?
Yes i do. But I also believe in what 2 Corinthians 5:10 says. So you see its not a matter of salvation. Its a matter of judgement. We are accountable for our deeds and our hearts. Its not just a matter of thinking oneself a "Christian" or thinking one has the Holy Spirit in him. The destination I speak of is judgement not salvation. I have no doubt about salvation, its the Lords Judgement seat that I wonder how I'll fare. 2 Corinthians 7:1 My question would be have you, me or anyone accomplished what 2 Corinthians 7:1 states? I know I have quite a ways to go...and you?

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Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?

#88

Post by DannyM » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:05 pm

RickD wrote:Danny, in its proper context, the video isn't racist IMO. When Americans view the video, it's seen through US colored glasses so to speak. The Australian culture certainly isn't the same as the American culture.


I didn’t really have the Americans down as being overly sensitive.
Danny, I don't disagree with this on the surface. The problem I see, is that I don't think you really grasp the effect slavery has had on this country. It was the way of life here. The entire economy of the south was run on the institution of slave labor. Money was more important than the freedom of certain people.
I understand this, Rick. But we’re left with a situation where we are saying that the Declaration of Independence was either a load of bulls**t or it was the foundation for abolition.
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