Speaking in tongues.

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#196

Post by jlay » Sat May 12, 2012 6:36 pm

Dave. I suppose you read that out of a translation that relies on the 'older' manuscripts. It is nothing short of a fallacy to assume that age alone insures accuracy. But even if we put those verses on the shelf we can distinquish the difference between Jesus baptizing with the HS and the HS baptizing into Christ.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#197

Post by CallMeDave » Sun May 13, 2012 7:26 am

jlay wrote:Dave. I suppose you read that out of a translation that relies on the 'older' manuscripts. It is nothing short of a fallacy to assume that age alone insures accuracy. But even if we put those verses on the shelf we can distinquish the difference between Jesus baptizing with the HS and the HS baptizing into Christ.
I got that from my NIV LIfe Application Bible as well as other translations. We are not required to go round handling dangerous snakes and the like because we are Born Again Believers , and, its the Fruit of the Spirit of God thru a changed heart followed by continued outward expression that is evidence that a person has had an authentic conversion to Christ in addition to confessing with your mouth (coming from the heart) Jesus is Lord/King/and Saviour and that God raised him from the dead. When you do that, you immediately get the H.S. as an indwelling so when you die, you die IN Christ .
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#198

Post by secretfire6 » Tue May 15, 2012 1:35 am

jlay wrote:
The scriptures tell us over and over that if you believe that jesus is lord and that through his death and resurrection that you are saved, then you will be baptised with holy spirit/you will recieve the gift of holy spirit. That's what salvation is. I know that every true believer in that congregation had the holy spirit...I saw it in them with their behavior and fruits, even the ones who were being told they didn't have it. I remember one of my closer friends kept asking me "did you get your language yet?" I couldnt help but chuckle (this was after i knew the truth of course)
Are you sure?
The scriptures tell us what happened to others, and what is avaialable to us. They are not always the same things. For example:
Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

This is a universal statement regarding those that believe. Tongues is not an option. Yet, in Paul's writings we read differently. (1 Cor. 12:30)
Contradiciton? Or are we reading the scripture with a wreckles hermanuetic and implanting ourself in the audience? I say the latter.

Now, let's look at baptism of the HS. Are we baptized with the HS?
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Who is the "ye" that are promised? The "apostles whom he had chosen." (Acts 1:2) Were they? Yes. Is this same thing promised to us? I say no.

We certainly do NOT see beleivers today doing those things in Mark 16. I see a lot of counterfeits.
So, is there a difference between being baptized with the spirit, and by the spirit? Yes. All believers are baptized by the spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13.
This is the baptism into the body of Christ. It is universal and has no distinction. It is available to Jew or Greek. The baptisms in Acts and Mark were for the commission given to the 12. Prior to Paul there was a definate distinction. Christ's earthly ministry and the ministry of the 12 was JEWISH. If we are operating under that economy today, then those signs WOULD follow. And there wouldn't be any, "I wonder if that gibberish sounding stuff is really tongues." It wouldn't matter because the sick would be healed by laying on hands. Mark 16 doesn't say these signs might follow them. Or, they shall follow only some. Or, they will only follow some when they are on stage at some revival.

In this economy we are baptized into the body by one spirit. The spirit seals us, promises us, and gives us access to the Father, when we believe. (Eph. 1:13)
So, do we all have the HS? Absolutely. But I would say in a different sense than what these others are speaking of. That is why they can say a person can be a believer and not have the HS. They are trying to partake in something that is not theirs, and in doing so distort who the believer is in Christ.
In our economy, as we yield, obey and surrender in faith, we are peretually filled. I do not think this at all relates to the spasmodic, highly emotional displays we see today in the charasmatic movement, such as being literaly drunk with the spirit, slain in the spirit, or knocked to the floor.
You know what, I have allways known there was a difference between what the Apostles of the church had and what everyone else had after they passed away, but I haven't heard it explained quite in this way. I will have to look into this more. I know that some of the miracle gifts were bestowed on the gentiles..Cornelius and his household and the congregation at Corinth show us that, BUT I do also recall stories about people trying to excercise unclean spirits like the Apostles did and ended up getting a beat down.
Do I recall correctly that Jesus told the Apostles that he would send them Holy spirit in a greater measure? And that they could deal out a portion to whom they saw fit by laying their hands upon them?? This is kind of foggy to me. I do agree that nobody today is rasing the dead, healing the sick with a touch, immune to viper venom and as i said before, i havent come across any credible tounges accounts. Maybe its more because those sorts of powers or gifts just arent neccessary anymore??

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#199

Post by jlay » Tue May 15, 2012 8:50 am

I know that some of the miracle gifts were bestowed on the gentiles..Cornelius and his household and the congregation at Corinth show us that, BUT I do also recall stories about people trying to excercise unclean spirits like the Apostles did and ended up getting a beat down.
Yes, if we read Acts, we can see the transition for the 12's commission, to Israel's rejection and fall, to the calling of the Apostle Paul.
It is interesting that Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles) always went first to the Jew. When the Jew rejected he then went to the Gentile.

The Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, too. 46 For they heard them speaking in other tongues and praising God. (Acts 10:45)

Remember that earlier Peter was 'puzzling' over this vision he had just had. Why? It was NEW. It had not been revealed during Christ's earthly ministry. Remember that Paul although saved, had not yet been commissioned (Chapter 13)
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#200

Post by secretfire6 » Thu May 17, 2012 11:54 pm

so do you think the reason these particular gifts of the spirit aren't around anymore is because they are no longer useful? We can get many different Bibles in any language you want nowadays(tongues) and what is someone going to tell us about God that isnt already in a scripture somewhere (knowledge, prophecy)? As far as signs for unbelievers, to prove God is real..well science is doing some of that now and still there are some who wont believe no matter what proof you have "some people wont believe there's a fire, even when their hair is burning. Denial is a powerful thing"-quote from 'the Fog' . i love that quote :lol:

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#201

Post by jlay » Fri May 18, 2012 10:30 am

I was listening to a Joseph Prince sermon the other night. He is a Free Grace proponent and I admire him for that. But he is also a strong charasmatic and says that Mark 16:17-18 is for today.

He would reference Acts 19 as evidence, among other verses. The problem I have with this is tongues becomes the issue, but what about healings and casting out demons? If these gifts are active today, I want them. The issue becomes one of hermaneutics. A dispensational position ask, "does this apply today, or does the context demand a different interpretation?" Prince would say it all applies. But this presents other issues, particularly if you are advocating Free Grace (which I agree with btw.)

Take Stephen for example. He wasn't one of the twelve, yet he was full of the spirit, and no one had to guess because he performed signs and wonders. So, would believers question the legitimacy of tongues if these other gifts were evident? No. You would still have skeptics, but I strongly doubt the majority of believers would be. Acts 6 even says that Jewish Priests were converting. This brought everything to a head, and of course we know what happened to Stephen. This was the beginning of the end. The Bible says these things will happen in the LAST days. Everyone looks at Pentecost as the beginning of something, and yet you'd have to ignore the plain reading of scripture to do so. (Acts 2:17) Could it be that last days actually means the last days of something, or something coming to an end? I'd say, yes!
Let's not forget this, "Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles." (Acts 2:43)
Do you (using this generally) know of any congregation where many signs and wonders are occuring? If so, then I want to go. Because if tongues are happening, then it's legit.

As Paul's ministry began, he would go first to the Jew, and when the Jew rejected, he then went to the Gentile. The ministry to the gentiles was birthed out of the rejection of Israel. I think once Israel's rejection was complete, the signs ceased. The Apostles were given a ministry.
Acts 2:42 says, "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

So, this begs the question. Why Paul?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#202

Post by secretfire6 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:15 pm

jlay wrote:I was listening to a Joseph Prince sermon the other night. He is a Free Grace proponent and I admire him for that. But he is also a strong charasmatic and says that Mark 16:17-18 is for today.

He would reference Acts 19 as evidence, among other verses. The problem I have with this is tongues becomes the issue, but what about healings and casting out demons? If these gifts are active today, I want them. The issue becomes one of hermaneutics. A dispensational position ask, "does this apply today, or does the context demand a different interpretation?" Prince would say it all applies. But this presents other issues, particularly if you are advocating Free Grace (which I agree with btw.)

Take Stephen for example. He wasn't one of the twelve, yet he was full of the spirit, and no one had to guess because he performed signs and wonders. So, would believers question the legitimacy of tongues if these other gifts were evident? No. You would still have skeptics, but I strongly doubt the majority of believers would be. Acts 6 even says that Jewish Priests were converting. This brought everything to a head, and of course we know what happened to Stephen. This was the beginning of the end. The Bible says these things will happen in the LAST days. Everyone looks at Pentecost as the beginning of something, and yet you'd have to ignore the plain reading of scripture to do so. (Acts 2:17) Could it be that last days actually means the last days of something, or something coming to an end? I'd say, yes!
Let's not forget this, "Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles." (Acts 2:43)
Do you (using this generally) know of any congregation where many signs and wonders are occuring? If so, then I want to go. Because if tongues are happening, then it's legit.

As Paul's ministry began, he would go first to the Jew, and when the Jew rejected, he then went to the Gentile. The ministry to the gentiles was birthed out of the rejection of Israel. I think once Israel's rejection was complete, the signs ceased. The Apostles were given a ministry.
Acts 2:42 says, "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

So, this begs the question. Why Paul?
So are you saying that the signs and wonders that followed the apostles were there mostly as a great final attempt to convert non believing Jews to Christ and once the rejection was firm and final, they ceased? You know what I would love to see? Historical documentation of when exactly the tounges miracle, and others, stopped happening. From the Epistle of Corintians we know that it was being used and abused there. Is there a way to accurately date that Epistle?? or even a ball park decade? Somewhere somebody in the early church congregations must have been sitting around thinking "you know all that awesome stuff the Apostles and church father's used to do? how come nobody does that anymore?" I have a study Bible which says the first epistle to Corinthians was most likely written in 55 AD while Paul was in Ephesus. do we have any other evidence of the use of sign miracles later than this???

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#203

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:59 pm

The assemblies of God denomination are an interesting group. I have "Our distinctive doctrines" and on pg.5 it says "All believers when baptized in the Holy Spirit, will speak in tongues" This of course is the goofy nonsensical language. Now with that said, I have asked the upper authority of the denomination and was told this "Since you don't speak in tongues, you are not saved. The saving "process" is still ongoing with you" I felt a little set back at that comment and did some homework. When your saved a person does not have to speak "to be seen of men" Matt 6:1-8

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#204

Post by B. W. » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:23 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:The assemblies of God denomination are an interesting group. I have "Our distinctive doctrines" and on pg.5 it says "All believers when baptized in the Holy Spirit, will speak in tongues" This of course is the goofy nonsensical language. Now with that said, I have asked the upper authority of the denomination and was told this "Since you don't speak in tongues, you are not saved. The saving "process" is still ongoing with you" I felt a little set back at that comment and did some homework. When your saved a person does not have to speak "to be seen of men" Matt 6:1-8
It is not a matter of speaking in an unknown tongue that saves a person. It is as Jesus Christ says in John 3:15, 16 is how one becomes born again and purpose of the Holy Spirit in John chapters 14, 15, and 16. Also Paul in Romans 10 Ephesians 1 makes it clear as well how one is saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

So far, John666, you posted on this Forum that makes it clear you adhere to the following:

10. Denial of the doctrine of the Trinity.

11. Denial that Jesus is God in flesh.

12. Denial that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation.

13. Denial of the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit.

I would agree with the AOG upper authority that you – Are Not Saved – but not with one must speak in an unknown tongue to be saved.

You need to become Born Again (John 17:3) to know the Lord and enter new life and find the real purpose for your life God has. Do you want to become born again? or do you think 666 can save you?
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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#205

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:15 am

B. W> wrote:10. Denial of the doctrine of the Trinity.

11. Denial that Jesus is God in flesh.

12. Denial that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation.

13. Denial of the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit.

I would agree with the AOG upper authority that you – Are Not Saved – but not with one must speak in an unknown tongue to be saved.

You need to become Born Again (John 17:3) to know the Lord and enter new life and find the real purpose for your life God has. Do you want to become born again? or do you think 666 can save you?
I find no biblical evidence of those things I do deny to be the truth. We both can find them in the Creeds, which btw is not the bible.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#206

Post by B. W. » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:52 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:
B. W> wrote:10. Denial of the doctrine of the Trinity.

11. Denial that Jesus is God in flesh.

12. Denial that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation.

13. Denial of the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit.

I would agree with the AOG upper authority that you – Are Not Saved – but not with one must speak in an unknown tongue to be saved.

You need to become Born Again (John 17:3) to know the Lord and enter new life and find the real purpose for your life God has. Do you want to become born again? or do you think 666 can save you?
I find no biblical evidence of those things I do deny to be the truth. We both can find them in the Creeds, which btw is not the bible.
That is no answer - other than that only john666 alone can interpret the bible correctly…

Thank you for revealing your privet interpretations are from you.

Also note:

The Article quoted below is from this website: http://www.abouttheway.org/
"The 'Weak' Case for the Trinity"

WHO IS "THE SON OF GOD?"

Followers of The Way International like to say that "Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son." Yet, few seem to carefully think through what it means to be "the Son of God." What do you think the "Son of God" (or the "Word") is like? That he is a human son of God like the rest of us, with weaknesses and sins? Or that he is a sinless human like Adam once was? Or that he is primarily an angel-like spiritual being that existed before becoming flesh at Bethlehem (or just after)? Or that he is a created divine-like power but not Divine? Or what? Or haven't you really thought much about what it is to be the Son of God?

The Way International (TWI) condemns evangelical Christian teaching on who Jesus Christ is, but several problems are obvious to an informed reader:
1) it sets up Christian teaching as a "straw man." That is, they make it look like the case for Christ being God in nature is based on almost no Scripture. If you make the "enemy's" stance look weak, it's easy to knock down. For instance, the book Jesus Christ is Not God (JCNG) says "only six" Bible verses can be remotely used to teach the Trinity, apparently unaware of the whole pattern of Bible passages which address this.

2) It misunderstands Trinity teaching. Christian's don't believe, as Jehovah's Witnesses and Wayers often think, that there are more than one God, that Jesus did not have a human nature, or that Jesus is the Father.

3) There are huge errors and faults in TWI's arguments.

For example, JCNG, first edition, said that in Hebrews 1:2, the word "by" should be translated "for." This is totally false, as anyone who knows even a little Greek can see. We pointed this out in our book The Integrity and Accuracy of The Way's Word. A few years later the second edition came out, deleting that false idea and making up a new one-- that old manuscripts read differently. But they didn't say which ones (Wierwille never gave evidence for his claims-- perhaps he just thought everyone should accept them because he taught by "revelation.") The research team sent us a list, which turned out to be mangled and false (see the article Which Way Does it Read? To date, TWI still hasn't printed a correction of the gross inaccuracies it printed about this. In other words, TWI keeps changing its story on Heb 1:2, its stories are all inaccurate, and Hebrews 1:2 is still a clear description of Jesus as having the nature of God. The same is true of Matthew 28:19. If you are interested in how TWI has tried to twist it also, some details are in the above book and we could add others, too. VPW can't get them to read in an anti-Trinitarian way no matter how much he twists, because the Word is plain.

There are a lot of Scriptures on Christ's nature that TWI and the Jehovah's Witnesses never try to tackle (including many of the "hardest" ones. For instance, Rev 2:8, 22:13,16 (also Isaiah 41:4, 44:6) call God the Father and Jesus Christ both the "1st and last." How can there be two "1st" and two "lasts?"
Several New Testament (NT) verses quote Old Testament (OT) verses which contain the word "God." But they take out the word "God" and insert "Jesus Christ" (or make clear they refer to Jesus). If Jesus does not have the nature of God, how could a Bible writer quote a verse about God and substitute Jesus' name? Imagine them writing, "In the beginning Jim Martin created the heavens and the earth!" Gross blasphemy (unless Jesus does have God's nature)!

The same is true of about a dozen titles (I AM, judge, Light, Savior, Rock, Shepherd, Creator, King, Bridegroom, Healer), all are applied to God in the OT and to Jesus in the NT.
More than 15 verses make clear that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in honor and nature, of which Mat 28:19 is only one.
We encourage you to work through the list of verses below slowly, Bible in hand. It's not a matter of one or two verses, but a whole pattern one can see throughout the Bible.
What does it mean that Jesus is "the Son of God?" E. W. Bullinger, who TWI respects as a Bible scholar, defines the meaning of the phrase in his book Figures of Speech Used in the Bible:
"In the singular with both articles it is used of Christ. 'The Son of God' is that blessed one who is perfect man and perfect God, perfectly human and 'the Son of man' (also with both articles) and perfectly Divine as 'the Son of God.'" (p. 504)

If you are interested in other articles about who Jesus Christ is, several web sites provide a place to start. A starting point may be the Watchman Fellowship web site, which has material on line about Christ and the Trinity and links to other Christian sites which address such topics.
The Deity of Jesus Christ

According To The Scriptures

1) EXPLICIT "DOCTRINAL" STATEMENTS
A. Matthew 1:13--"God with us"
B. John 1:1,18--"The Word was God"
C. Romans 9:5 - "God blessed forever"
D. 1 Timothy 3:16--"God in the flesh"
E. CoIossians 2:9-- "Fullness of the Godhead "
F. Titus 2:13--"God and Savior"
G. James 2:1--"Lord of Glory"
H. 1 John 5:20--"The true God"
I. Isaiah 9:6--"Mighty God"
J. 2 Peter l :1--"God and Savior"
K. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:12-20;1:17-18--"First and Last"

2) CALLED THE "IMAGE" OR "FIRST-BORN" (NOT FIRST-CREATED)
A. CoIossians 1:15
B. 2 Corinthians 4:4
C. Hebrews 1:3-6
D. Psalm 89:27

3) JESUS' OWN CLAIMS
A. John 5:17-18--called God His own Father
B. John 10:30--"/ and the Father are One"
C. Matthew 19:17--"only One is good"
D. John 16:15--"all things the Father has are mine"
E. John 8:24; 8:58; 18:5-6; Mark 14:62--"I AM"

4) JESUS SEPARATES HIMSELF FROM MANKIND
A. Luke 11:13--"You being evil" (not "we")
B. John 2:24-25--did not trust Himself to man
C. John 3:7--"You must be born again"

5) WHAT CONTEMPORARIES THOUGHT OF JESUS
A. His Friends:
1. Thomas--John 20:28--"My Lord and My God "
2. Paul--Acts 20:28--God spent His own blood
3. Paul and Ananias--Acts 9:5,10; 15:17 with
Acts 22:12-22--Saul chosen by Him/God
B. His Father--Hebrews 1:8--"Your throne, O God "
C. Government:
1. Pilate--John 19:19,22--"King of the Jews"
2. Centurion--Luke 23:47--"righteous" Matthew 27:54; Mark 15:39--"Son of God"
D. Enemies:
The Jews understood Jesus claimed Deity by attempting to execute Him many times--John 5:18; John 10:35; Mark 14:63.

6) ETERNAL ("PRE") EXISTENCE
A. Micah 5:2--"From the days of eternity"
B. Isaiah 9:5--"Father of eternity"
C. John 1:1-2--"In the beginning" (origin)
D. John 1:15--"he was before me"
E. John 8:58-- "before Abraham "
F. John 17:5--"before the world"
G. Revelation 1:8--"Who is, was, is to come"

7) OLD TESTAMENT PASSAGES REFERRING TO YHWH (GOD) APPLIED SPECIFICALLY TO JESUS BY NEW TESTAMENT WRITERS
A. Matthew 1:23 / Isaiah 7:14--"God with us"
B. Matthew 3:3; Mark 1:2-3; Luke 3:4; John 1:23 /Isaiah 40:3--"Straighten the way of the Lord"
C. Matt. 11:10 / Malachi 3:1--messenger to c/ear way
D. Romans 10:13 / Joel 2:32--believe on Him
E. Philippians 2:10 / Isaiah 45:23--knees bow to Him
F. Hebrews 1:6 / Psalm 97:5,7--worship Him
G. Hebrews 1:8 / Psalm 45:6--"Thy throne O God "
H. Heb. 1:10-12 / Psalm 102:24-27--made the heavens
I. Revelation 1:7 / Zechariah 12:10--the pierced one
J. Revelation 15:3-4 / Deuteronomy 32:3-4 -- song of
Moses/the Lamb

8) OLD TESTAMENT TITLES REFERRING TO YHWH
APPLIED SPECIFICALLY TO JESUS BY NEW TESTAMENT WRITERS
A. Revelation 2:8; 22:13,16 / Isaiah 41:4; 44:6 -- First and Last
B. John 8:24,58 / Exodus 3:14, Isaiah 43:10 - "I AM"
C. 2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:22--Genesis 18:25--Judge
D. John 1:9; 8:12 / Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:19--Light
E. Titus 3:4,6 / Isaiah 43:11, 45:21, 35:4--Savior
F. 1 Corinthians 10:4 / Isaiah 28:16, Psalm 78:35--Rock
G. John 10:11,16 / Psalm 23:1 --Shepherd
H. Colossians 1:16; John 1:2 / Isaiah 44:24--Creator
I. Matthew 2:2; Acts 17:7 / Psalm 5:2; 24:10--King
J. Mark 2:19, John 3:29 / Hosea 2:16; Isaiah 62:5--Bridegroom
K. Acts 9:34 / Psalm 103:3--Healer

G) OTHER TITLES APPLIED TO JESUS CHRIST
A. Matthew 1:21--Jesus = "YHWH saves "
B. 1 Corinthians 12:3; John 13:13--Lord C. Acts 2:36--Lord and Christ
D. Matthew 16:16; Luke 1 :35, Hebrews 1:5--Son of God
E. Mark 2:28; 14:41 -- Son of Man (Note that most attributes tied directly to this title are explicitly God-like, not man-like.)
F. John 5:27; 6:62--Judge
G. John 8:24,28,58-- "/ A M "
H. Luke 9:26--in Glory
I. Mark 14:62--On throne and will come
J. Luke 5:24--Forgives sins
K. Luke 6:5, Mark 2:28--Lord of the Sabbath
L. Matthew 13:41--Sends his angels

10) PLACED ON PAR WITH THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT
A. Trinitarian Events/Formulas:
1 Luke 1~35--incarnation
2 Matthew 3:16--Baptism of Jesus
3. Matthew 28:19--Baptism of believers
4. 2 Corinthians 13:14-- a blessing
5. 1 Corinthians 12:4-6--Gifts, service, working

B. The Three Working Together:
1. Ephesians 2:18,22--Access to the Father / built into dwelling
2. Ephesians 3:14-17--We are strengthened
3. Hebrews 2:3-4--Word announced, testified to
4. Acts 3:26; John 2:19; 1 Peter 3:18--Resurrection of Jesus
5. John 14:26; 15:26--Jesus sends me Holy Spirit from the Father

C. Parallels Between The Father and The Son:
1. John 5:23--Honor the Son as the Father
2. John 8:19,24--Know the Son / Know the Father
3. John 14:1--Trust in God, in Jesus
4. John 14:9--See Jesus, see the Father
5. Matthew 11:27--Only the Son knows the Father
6. 1 Corinthians 8:6--for whom we exist, through whom we exist

11) JESUS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT (barely a sampling)
A. Isaiah 9:6--Counselor, God, Father
B. Isaiah 49:7--Lord and His Holy One
C. Psalm 110:1--Lord said unto my Lord
D. Zechariah 13:7--My Shepherd and Associate

12) DIVINE ACTIONS AND ATTRIBUTES
A. Divine Actions:
1. Acts 5:31; Mark 2:5-10; Luke 5:20-24-- Forgives sins
2. Matthew 14:33; Hebrews 1:6--Receives worship (see Luke 4:8)
3. Acts 7:59; John 14:14; 2 Peter 3:18 -- Receives prayer
4. John 1:4,11:25,14:6--Gives life, light
5 John 3:13, 6:51--From heaven
6 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Zechariah 14:4-5 -- Will come on the clouds
7. John 5:27-29--Will raise all men
8. John 17:2--Gives sterna/ life
9. John 14:27' 16:33; Romans 15:33--Gives peace
10. Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3--Upholds all things

B. Divine Attributes:
1. John 2:19,10:17-18, 5:26--Self-existence
2.1 John 1:2, John 17:5,24--Eternal
3. Matthew 18:20, 28:20; John 3:13; Ephesians 1:21 --Omnipresence
4. Matthew 9:4; 12:25; Mark 2:8; Luke 6:8; 9:47 -- Omniscience
5. Matthew 28:18; Luke 21:15; John 1:3, 10:18 -- Omnipotence
6. Hebrews 1:11-12, 13:8--Unchangeable
7. John 6:69, 8:46, Matthew 27:3-4; Luke 23:22,41 -- Holiness
8. John 1:4;11:25; 14:6--Life

- SOMETHING TO REMEMBER -
Jesus was not only God, but God-Man. The following verses help explain some Arian proof texts:
1. Colossians 2:9--Deity in bodily form (somatikos)
2. Hebrews 2:14-18--Shared humanity
3. Philippians 2:6-8-- Emptied Himself, took the form of a man (Note: The Isaiah 45:23 passage immediately follows.)

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1stjohn0666
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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#207

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:30 pm

I don't see any of the texts you have posted to support what you claim. Now if you want to support your claim, the Creeds are where to go. you made a mistake in Rev 1:8 Alpha and Omega I agree are shared "titles" but which was which is and is to come is not Jesus but rather that is Yaweh.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#208

Post by B. W. » Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:16 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:I don't see any of the texts you have posted to support what you claim. Now if you want to support your claim, the Creeds are where to go. you made a mistake in Rev 1:8 Alpha and Omega I agree are shared "titles" but which was which is and is to come is not Jesus but rather that is Yaweh.
As stated in above section:

1) EXPLICIT "DOCTRINAL" STATEMENTS
A. Matthew 1:13--"God with us"
B. John 1:1,18--"The Word was God"
C. Romans 9:5 - "God blessed forever"
D. 1 Timothy 3:16--"God in the flesh"
E. Colossians 2:9-- "Fullness of the Godhead "
F. Titus 2:13--"God and Savior"
G. James 2:1--"Lord of Glory"
H. 1 John 5:20--"The true God"
I. Isaiah 9:6--"Mighty God"
J. 2 Peter 1:1--"God and Savior"
K. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:12-20;1:17-18--"First and Last"
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

1stjohn0666
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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#209

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:41 am

Done with answering your "other Jesus" comments, as I have to be a "non-Christian" on this site.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#210

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:24 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Done with answering your "other Jesus" comments, as I have to be a "non-Christian" on this site.
You'll be a non-Christian OFF this site, pretty soon, if you continue like this. You are walking a fine line, John. You have been given more leeway than some others who refuse to answer questions posed by members here.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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