Speaking in tongues.

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#181

Post by secretfire6 » Thu May 19, 2011 6:51 pm

neo-x wrote:I was teaching at their Bible college (also member of the church) and I didn't follow what material they gave me to teach, because it was non-biblical. I also asked them questions and over some months they began to tell me indirectly that I have a great future in Christ and that I should look for better opportunities to the point that one day the head pastor sat down with me and told me either I have to leave me thoughts out or leave the church. And here is the kicker I was teaching for free, I wasn't taking a dime and I had been teaching for 5 years and I told them that let me teach, I will teach for free for the next ten years as well but they just wouldn't have it.
thats how you know that something was very amiss in that religious system. everyone should be open to new truth, even if it goes against or proves wrong, something that you believed to be true for 30 years. you MUST be able to let go of the wrong and embrace the true. I've had to do that already in my studies...had to let go of the global destruction of Noah's flood, let go of the image of this awesome all consuming power of God destroying, then rebuilding the whole earth. I mean i allways had concerns and big questions regarding a global flood, but still believed it that way since i was a kid. now all the questions are answered, a veil lifted and yeah...it's dissapointing that it wasnt a big old magical super destructive flood followed by an equally magical rebuilding of a planet and its systems, but hey, it's truth and it makes much more sense and helps understanding in many other places of the Bible.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#182

Post by agharvey » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:59 pm

Speaking in tongues is for the believer, prophesy is for the none believer. Speaking in tongue should be done to edify Him and not self. As we speak in tongue as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance ,we should also pray and seek for an understanding of what we said. There are people who are so spiritually connect that they can interpret what others are saying 1Corinthians 12 it is a GIFT!.Tongues is a language between a person and the Holy Spirit. Acts 2 tells about the Day of Pentecost when all the people were unitied with Him in their minds and hearts and The Holy Spirit set there tongues on fire. Your belief for or lack of for speaking in tongues can be proven through the word of God.1 corithians 14

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#183

Post by 1harpazo » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:04 am

Could it be that those who do not speak in tongues received the baptism of John (the Baptist) and not the baptism of Jesus Christ? Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hear me out before you brand me a heretic.

What is the baptism of John? Mark defined it: Mark 1:4: John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.(NASU). Paul further explained it: "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." (Acts 19:4, NASU). Jesus confirmed John's baptism: Luke 20:3-4: Jesus answered and said to them, "I will also ask you a question, and you tell Me: 4 "Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?" (NASU). So John's baptism is for the repentance of sins and believing in Jesus Christ. Isn't that what happens today? When an unbeliever is saved, he repents of his sins, asks God to forgive him, believes in Jesus (that Jesus died so that the unbeliever's sins could be forgiven and was raised from the dead so that the unbeliever could have eternal life) and is baptized in water. Thus the unbeliever has received the baptism of John. Is the baptism of John scriptural? When did it cease?

But even John acknowledged that there is another baptism. He told those listening to him that Jesus had another baptism: Mark 1:8: "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." (NASU). Jesus recognized John's baptism and related His own to His disciples: Acts 1:4-5 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." (NASU). Jesus Himself experienced it: Matt 3:16: After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him. (NASU).

Jesus knew that His disciples would need power to witness to the world, so He staged them in Jerusalem to be baptized with the Holy Spirit (think Jesus, Jordan river, Holy Spirit): Acts 1:7-8: He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." (NASU). Once they received the Holy Spirit, they began to speak in other tongues: Acts 2:2-4: And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. (NASU).

Now that Peter was baptized with the Holy Spirit, he went out and preached it others. He even said that Jesus had received it: Acts 10:38: "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. (NASU). Because of Peter's teaching, the men were educated about Jesus' baptism and their faith was built up to receive it: Acts 10:44-48: While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (NASU).

Evidently some disciples had wandered away to Ephesus before the Holy Spirit had been poured out in Jerusalem. Paul found them and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. (Acts 19: 2-6 NASU). Notice that Paul affirms that they are believers (v.2) even though they had only received the baptism of John. Well, Paul convinces them that there is more-the baptism of Jesus. So they said, "That sounds good to us. We want Jesus' baptism." (My improvisation). So Paul lays his hands on them and lo and behold, they receive Jesus' baptism and speak with tongues and prophesy.

So why don't all receive the baptism of Jesus now? I suspect that sometime through the years the enemy crept in and convinced somebody that they didn't need this baptism-that John's was good enough. The devil is extremely afraid of power-filled Christians so he got somebody to go back to preaching John's baptism. It's through ignorance (untaught) and/or unbelief that people do not receive the baptism of Jesus.

???

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#184

Post by CallMeDave » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:07 pm

oscarsiziba wrote:What tongues are these?Heavenly or human,backing Scripture.
1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 14. And...Acts chapter 2 .

Speaking in tongues is a supernatural gift for two basic purposes : 1. As a sign for non believers who are in a corporate church atmosphere usually on a Sunday , so they can witness the spoken message with interpretation in english so it can be understood . 2. To empower the Individual for witnessing to unbelievers and general service to God . It can also be used as a private prayer language for edifiying the individual.

Whenever tongues are spoken in a public setting, it should always be accompanied with interpretation ... otherwise, speaking in tongues should be kept private and to oneself.

All the supernatural gifts are for today...that is, they are extant . When we get to heaven there will no longer be need of Tongues . The gift is a very authentic one..but im afraid there have been many misuses and fabrications within Christian circles thruout time.
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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#185

Post by Tina » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:54 pm

I heard a woman speak in tongues. Not bragging, but I am good at guessing which language people are speaking due to accent and the words they are using. When I heard this woman, it sounded like gibberish. I have never seen scriptures telling us that "speaking in tongues" is necessary to to have the Holy Spirit nor have I seen scriptures telling us to pray in tongues to get closer to GOD. GOD is not one of confusion, and tongues are pretty confusing.
I never doubt the idea that churches will lie about being able to interpret such things. Cults lie all of the time.
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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#186

Post by CallMeDave » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:57 am

Tina wrote:I heard a woman speak in tongues. Not bragging, but I am good at guessing which language people are speaking due to accent and the words they are using. When I heard this woman, it sounded like gibberish. I have never seen scriptures telling us that "speaking in tongues" is necessary to to have the Holy Spirit nor have I seen scriptures telling us to pray in tongues to get closer to GOD. GOD is not one of confusion, and tongues are pretty confusing.
I never doubt the idea that churches will lie about being able to interpret such things. Cults lie all of the time.

Probably most people are speaking gibberish when they do that, but it doesnt nullify the real thing. I have a Friend near Memphis who has the real gift of speaking in tongues...in fact two seperatre ones....and one sounds distinctive middle eastern . It isnt necessary to speak in tongues to be filled with the H.S. , for, there are many gifts which come from one H.S. If you want to be filled with the H.S., simply ask God to fill you along with how you want to use that infilling, and if its to bring glory to the Kingdom , he will do it. It is good today, that we be discerning about anything tied to the Christian Faith because in the endtimes there will be imposters , frauds, and apostasy within Christendom as the Bible says.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#187

Post by secretfire6 » Fri May 11, 2012 3:10 am

The last church I attended was an Assembly of God church here in Illinois. tounges weren't outwardly a big issue and i rarely ever heard anyone doing this. when i did, it was usually a series of repeated sylables like " lalalala, dededede tatatata etetet" or someone trying to say something that "sounds like" a foreign language. To me, even before my very long study of tounges, this was a total fraud. Never in all the years I went there, did anyone ever translate these little episodes..nobody knew what to do or what they were saying and it usually only happened when the lighting, music and mood was just right. That is no coincidence. Now that I've done the study on tounges and the churches who started this phenomena, I'm acctually saddened by thinking of the people there caught up in it..especailly those who are confused or upset because they can't do it......if they only knew the truth.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#188

Post by CallMeDave » Fri May 11, 2012 10:46 am

secretfire6 wrote:The last church I attended was an Assembly of God church here in Illinois. tounges weren't outwardly a big issue and i rarely ever heard anyone doing this. when i did, it was usually a series of repeated sylables like " lalalala, dededede tatatata etetet" or someone trying to say something that "sounds like" a foreign language. To me, even before my very long study of tounges, this was a total fraud. Never in all the years I went there, did anyone ever translate these little episodes..nobody knew what to do or what they were saying and it usually only happened when the lighting, music and mood was just right. That is no coincidence. Now that I've done the study on tounges and the churches who started this phenomena, I'm acctually saddened by thinking of the people there caught up in it..especailly those who are confused or upset because they can't do it......if they only knew the truth.
As you alluded to in your final sentence, churches who place an excessive demand that One speak in tongues sets up a church body of 'haves' and 'have nots' and from there you get lots of spiritual pride , anxiety, confusion, and disappointment. Tongues is one of many spiritual gifts given by God IN ACCORDANCE TO HIS good pleasure and will ; if you dont have Tongues you can rest assured that you do have other gifts .... and a Spiritual Gift Inventory Test available at a Christian Bookstore or Online will allow the person to discover which they have and can then be implemented seeking Gods power to continuously operate in them.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#189

Post by secretfire6 » Fri May 11, 2012 1:33 pm

CallMeDave wrote:
secretfire6 wrote:The last church I attended was an Assembly of God church here in Illinois. tounges weren't outwardly a big issue and i rarely ever heard anyone doing this. when i did, it was usually a series of repeated sylables like " lalalala, dededede tatatata etetet" or someone trying to say something that "sounds like" a foreign language. To me, even before my very long study of tounges, this was a total fraud. Never in all the years I went there, did anyone ever translate these little episodes..nobody knew what to do or what they were saying and it usually only happened when the lighting, music and mood was just right. That is no coincidence. Now that I've done the study on tounges and the churches who started this phenomena, I'm acctually saddened by thinking of the people there caught up in it..especailly those who are confused or upset because they can't do it......if they only knew the truth.
As you alluded to in your final sentence, churches who place an excessive demand that One speak in tongues sets up a church body of 'haves' and 'have nots' and from there you get lots of spiritual pride , anxiety, confusion, and disappointment. Tongues is one of many spiritual gifts given by God IN ACCORDANCE TO HIS good pleasure and will ; if you dont have Tongues you can rest assured that you do have other gifts .... and a Spiritual Gift Inventory Test available at a Christian Bookstore or Online will allow the person to discover which they have and can then be implemented seeking Gods power to continuously operate in them.
YES! I totally agree with you and even though that specific congregation didn't push tounges anywhere near like an apostolic or pentecostal one would, the AOG itself did refer to it as "the icing on the cake" or "a greater connection between you and God" which still seperates the congregation between those that have the deeper connection with those who are somehow lesser, which is hogwash to me. But the worst thing of all, and the primary reason I left, was the teaching that the holy spirit was seperate from your salvation..that having the "indwelling of" or "being filled with" the holy spirit was a seperate, extra event that wasn't neccessary to be saved. I asked my pastor directly if it was possible that someone could be saved, but not have the holy spirit and he said yes. There were also hints at me being one of those people since (1) i was new to that church and (2) that I asked the question in the first place. This is not only wrong it's dangerously wrong. If you remove God from salvation, then what is salvation? They told me that salvation is believing that jesus is lord and that he died for your sins and you ask jesus into your heart..but you may still not have the holy spirit. Isn't that IMPOSSIBLE? The scriptures tell us over and over that if you believe that jesus is lord and that through his death and resurrection that you are saved, then you will be baptised with holy spirit/you will recieve the gift of holy spirit. That's what salvation is. I know that every true believer in that congregation had the holy spirit...I saw it in them with their behavior and fruits, even the ones who were being told they didn't have it. I remember one of my closer friends kept asking me "did you get your language yet?" I couldnt help but chuckle (this was after i knew the truth of course)
And think about this..the whole idea that God would withold something so important from a true believer who is earnestly seeking it is absurd. It was God's own promise that anyone who believed would recieve his holy spirit and remember this quote? "anything you ask in my name, I will do" So what does it mean when a honest to goodness believer has been asking and praying to recieve the spirit for months and months? It means you are asking for something you already have and that speaking in tounges has nothing to do with it..right?
oh yeah haha I acctually took one of those spiritual gift tests and it said my 2 strongest gifts were discernment of spirits and knowledge. the pamphlet attatched to it said that my greatests strengths within the church body would be as a missionary or teacher. Never thought of myself as being a missionary, but i do like teaching others about scriptures, bible history and the such...so who knows.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#190

Post by CallMeDave » Fri May 11, 2012 2:00 pm

secretfire6 wrote:
CallMeDave wrote:
secretfire6 wrote:The last church I attended was an Assembly of God church here in Illinois. tounges weren't outwardly a big issue and i rarely ever heard anyone doing this. when i did, it was usually a series of repeated sylables like " lalalala, dededede tatatata etetet" or someone trying to say something that "sounds like" a foreign language. To me, even before my very long study of tounges, this was a total fraud. Never in all the years I went there, did anyone ever translate these little episodes..nobody knew what to do or what they were saying and it usually only happened when the lighting, music and mood was just right. That is no coincidence. Now that I've done the study on tounges and the churches who started this phenomena, I'm acctually saddened by thinking of the people there caught up in it..especailly those who are confused or upset because they can't do it......if they only knew the truth.
As you alluded to in your final sentence, churches who place an excessive demand that One speak in tongues sets up a church body of 'haves' and 'have nots' and from there you get lots of spiritual pride , anxiety, confusion, and disappointment. Tongues is one of many spiritual gifts given by God IN ACCORDANCE TO HIS good pleasure and will ; if you dont have Tongues you can rest assured that you do have other gifts .... and a Spiritual Gift Inventory Test available at a Christian Bookstore or Online will allow the person to discover which they have and can then be implemented seeking Gods power to continuously operate in them.
YES! I totally agree with you and even though that specific congregation didn't push tounges anywhere near like an apostolic or pentecostal one would, the AOG itself did refer to it as "the icing on the cake" or "a greater connection between you and God" which still seperates the congregation between those that have the deeper connection with those who are somehow lesser, which is hogwash to me. But the worst thing of all, and the primary reason I left, was the teaching that the holy spirit was seperate from your salvation..that having the "indwelling of" or "being filled with" the holy spirit was a seperate, extra event that wasn't neccessary to be saved. I asked my pastor directly if it was possible that someone could be saved, but not have the holy spirit and he said yes. There were also hints at me being one of those people since (1) i was new to that church and (2) that I asked the question in the first place. This is not only wrong it's dangerously wrong. If you remove God from salvation, then what is salvation? They told me that salvation is believing that jesus is lord and that he died for your sins and you ask jesus into your heart..but you may still not have the holy spirit. Isn't that IMPOSSIBLE? The scriptures tell us over and over that if you believe that jesus is lord and that through his death and resurrection that you are saved, then you will be baptised with holy spirit/you will recieve the gift of holy spirit. That's what salvation is. I know that every true believer in that congregation had the holy spirit...I saw it in them with their behavior and fruits, even the ones who were being told they didn't have it. I remember one of my closer friends kept asking me "did you get your language yet?" I couldnt help but chuckle (this was after i knew the truth of course)
And think about this..the whole idea that God would withold something so important from a true believer who is earnestly seeking it is absurd. It was God's own promise that anyone who believed would recieve his holy spirit and remember this quote? "anything you ask in my name, I will do" So what does it mean when a honest to goodness believer has been asking and praying to recieve the spirit for months and months? It means you are asking for something you already have and that speaking in tounges has nothing to do with it..right?
oh yeah haha I acctually took one of those spiritual gift tests and it said my 2 strongest gifts were discernment of spirits and knowledge. the pamphlet attatched to it said that my greatests strengths within the church body would be as a missionary or teacher. Never thought of myself as being a missionary, but i do like teaching others about scriptures, bible history and the such...so who knows.

Your points are valid. There seems to be some difference within the A/G churches as the one i attended (also back in Illinois) was very scriptural but they did try to 'prime the pump' everytime someone went forward to obtain tongues ; if its a genuine gift FROM GOD to someone then there should be no priming necessary and God would simply grant it to the person upon a sincere desire to use it for the Kingdom . I have the spritual gifts of Mercy , Exhortation, (and Administration ....to a lesser degree) . I find im operating in them all the time on a daily basis. Our desire should be for God to use us in any circumstance which comes along regardless of our operating spiritual gift. Speaking in Tongues may be 'a' sign of the Holy Spirits indwelling , but generally its the FRUIT of the Spirit which is actually Christlikeness (Gal. 5) that is the determiner whether one has the Holy Spirit in them.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#191

Post by secretfire6 » Fri May 11, 2012 4:15 pm

CallMeDave wrote:
secretfire6 wrote:
CallMeDave wrote:
secretfire6 wrote:The last church I attended was an Assembly of God church here in Illinois. tounges weren't outwardly a big issue and i rarely ever heard anyone doing this. when i did, it was usually a series of repeated sylables like " lalalala, dededede tatatata etetet" or someone trying to say something that "sounds like" a foreign language. To me, even before my very long study of tounges, this was a total fraud. Never in all the years I went there, did anyone ever translate these little episodes..nobody knew what to do or what they were saying and it usually only happened when the lighting, music and mood was just right. That is no coincidence. Now that I've done the study on tounges and the churches who started this phenomena, I'm acctually saddened by thinking of the people there caught up in it..especailly those who are confused or upset because they can't do it......if they only knew the truth.
As you alluded to in your final sentence, churches who place an excessive demand that One speak in tongues sets up a church body of 'haves' and 'have nots' and from there you get lots of spiritual pride , anxiety, confusion, and disappointment. Tongues is one of many spiritual gifts given by God IN ACCORDANCE TO HIS good pleasure and will ; if you dont have Tongues you can rest assured that you do have other gifts .... and a Spiritual Gift Inventory Test available at a Christian Bookstore or Online will allow the person to discover which they have and can then be implemented seeking Gods power to continuously operate in them.
YES! I totally agree with you and even though that specific congregation didn't push tounges anywhere near like an apostolic or pentecostal one would, the AOG itself did refer to it as "the icing on the cake" or "a greater connection between you and God" which still seperates the congregation between those that have the deeper connection with those who are somehow lesser, which is hogwash to me. But the worst thing of all, and the primary reason I left, was the teaching that the holy spirit was seperate from your salvation..that having the "indwelling of" or "being filled with" the holy spirit was a seperate, extra event that wasn't neccessary to be saved. I asked my pastor directly if it was possible that someone could be saved, but not have the holy spirit and he said yes. There were also hints at me being one of those people since (1) i was new to that church and (2) that I asked the question in the first place. This is not only wrong it's dangerously wrong. If you remove God from salvation, then what is salvation? They told me that salvation is believing that jesus is lord and that he died for your sins and you ask jesus into your heart..but you may still not have the holy spirit. Isn't that IMPOSSIBLE? The scriptures tell us over and over that if you believe that jesus is lord and that through his death and resurrection that you are saved, then you will be baptised with holy spirit/you will recieve the gift of holy spirit. That's what salvation is. I know that every true believer in that congregation had the holy spirit...I saw it in them with their behavior and fruits, even the ones who were being told they didn't have it. I remember one of my closer friends kept asking me "did you get your language yet?" I couldnt help but chuckle (this was after i knew the truth of course)
And think about this..the whole idea that God would withold something so important from a true believer who is earnestly seeking it is absurd. It was God's own promise that anyone who believed would recieve his holy spirit and remember this quote? "anything you ask in my name, I will do" So what does it mean when a honest to goodness believer has been asking and praying to recieve the spirit for months and months? It means you are asking for something you already have and that speaking in tounges has nothing to do with it..right?
oh yeah haha I acctually took one of those spiritual gift tests and it said my 2 strongest gifts were discernment of spirits and knowledge. the pamphlet attatched to it said that my greatests strengths within the church body would be as a missionary or teacher. Never thought of myself as being a missionary, but i do like teaching others about scriptures, bible history and the such...so who knows.

Your points are valid. There seems to be some difference within the A/G churches as the one i attended (also back in Illinois) was very scriptural but they did try to 'prime the pump' everytime someone went forward to obtain tongues ; if its a genuine gift FROM GOD to someone then there should be no priming necessary and God would simply grant it to the person upon a sincere desire to use it for the Kingdom . I have the spritual gifts of Mercy , Exhortation, (and Administration ....to a lesser degree) . I find im operating in them all the time on a daily basis. Our desire should be for God to use us in any circumstance which comes along regardless of our operating spiritual gift. Speaking in Tongues may be 'a' sign of the Holy Spirits indwelling , but generally its the FRUIT of the Spirit which is actually Christlikeness (Gal. 5) that is the determiner whether one has the Holy Spirit in them.
THANK YOU!!! you are the first person who believes in tongues that I have ever talked to who acknowledged that the FRUITS are the only way to prove someone has the indwelling of the spirit, not gifts, because gifts can be and are often faked (Benny hinn and the faith healers). You have no idea how nice it is to hear that. Around here in the east central illinois area (Mattoon to be exact), all you hear from people who believe in tongues is that if you can't do it, you are missing something. The church I went to is called Praise and nobody there would condem you if you didn't speak in tongues. They would say that not everybody does it, which is true, and it doesnt effect salvation, true, and you have other gifts as well, true also. But they would allways end their statements with "you gotta try and get it if you can. It's sooo awesome and feels so great" oh boy :shakehead:
due to all this I did a very long and in depth study of tongues that lasted nearly a year. This is what I learned:

tounges means foreign language- look up the word for this gift in any language the Bible has been written in and look up that definition. you will find answers of "(foreign) language or dialect". Example is the original ancient Greek (glossolalia) which is 'to speak languages'. when someone down the road is said to speak a tounge, you know they speak a language or dialect unfamiliar to you.
So this means the churches who teach that tongues is also sounds of holy joy from the spirit such as chittering, laughing, crying, moaning, mooing, clucking or barking are incorrect.
tongues is plural- every reference to the gift in scripture is plural with only the exception of a specific person speaking a specific language. It is the ability to speak and/or understand foriegn languages.
So this means the churches who teach that tounges is a single language from heaven between God, angels and you, if you have the spirit, are incorrect.
there is only one kind of tounges gift- I never found any scriptural support for a tounges that was only for prayer and another that was for the congregation/public. All information from scripture points to the one ability of speaking foreign languages you previously didn't know.
So this means the churches who teach that there are different forms of tounges are incorrect.
tongues must be understood by all people around you and done in orderly fashion- this is something that Paul tried to pound into the heads of the Corinthian congregation. Everyone, including the speaker, must understand what was said either by already knowing that language or by a translator. Otherwise it was a waste of time and cannot be proven to be a genuine gift.
So this means the churches who practice mosh pit-like tongues extravaganzas or who never have an interpreted tongue message are in error.
tongues was for a sign to unbelievers and for edification of the church body- direct quotes from The Apostle Paul. Anyone who didnt believe Jesus was the real deal and that the church now belongs to ALL who believe would be proven wrong by the confirmation of this gift and that would in turn strengthen the church as a whole and add to it's ranks.
So this means the churches who teach that tongues is for a deeper personal connection to God is incorrect.
tongues may have passed away long ago-there are many compelling reasons to believe this to be true and i have acctually confirmed it for the gift of prophecy simply due to the biblical definition of a prophet. I personally haven't yet put a headstone on tongues, but i do say that if the genuine gift does still exist, it must be incredibly rare. I haven't experienced or heard of any credible accounts of the true gift being used combined that with the purpose and usefulness of such a gift is all but gone.
So this brings into question any church that teaches this gift is attainable, let alone mandatory for the church body.

When I did this study it was acctually hard to find a tongues supporter that was willing to talk about it. The one pastor I did find to talk to me gave his ideas of what it was all about and a few scriptures.. a couple of which had nothing to do with spiritual gifts or tongues. Even the Assembly of God main website stated that some of its core doctrine was not found in scripture, but was based on "assumptions and deductions from an apparent pattern found in the book of acts". it's like alot of people belived in it and had stories of experiences to tell me, but they couldnt tell me why or explain anything with any real satisfaction.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#192

Post by CallMeDave » Fri May 11, 2012 4:37 pm

secretfire6 wrote:
CallMeDave wrote:
secretfire6 wrote:
CallMeDave wrote:
secretfire6 wrote:The last church I attended was an Assembly of God church here in Illinois. tounges weren't outwardly a big issue and i rarely ever heard anyone doing this. when i did, it was usually a series of repeated sylables like " lalalala, dededede tatatata etetet" or someone trying to say something that "sounds like" a foreign language. To me, even before my very long study of tounges, this was a total fraud. Never in all the years I went there, did anyone ever translate these little episodes..nobody knew what to do or what they were saying and it usually only happened when the lighting, music and mood was just right. That is no coincidence. Now that I've done the study on tounges and the churches who started this phenomena, I'm acctually saddened by thinking of the people there caught up in it..especailly those who are confused or upset because they can't do it......if they only knew the truth.
As you alluded to in your final sentence, churches who place an excessive demand that One speak in tongues sets up a church body of 'haves' and 'have nots' and from there you get lots of spiritual pride , anxiety, confusion, and disappointment. Tongues is one of many spiritual gifts given by God IN ACCORDANCE TO HIS good pleasure and will ; if you dont have Tongues you can rest assured that you do have other gifts .... and a Spiritual Gift Inventory Test available at a Christian Bookstore or Online will allow the person to discover which they have and can then be implemented seeking Gods power to continuously operate in them.
YES! I totally agree with you and even though that specific congregation didn't push tounges anywhere near like an apostolic or pentecostal one would, the AOG itself did refer to it as "the icing on the cake" or "a greater connection between you and God" which still seperates the congregation between those that have the deeper connection with those who are somehow lesser, which is hogwash to me. But the worst thing of all, and the primary reason I left, was the teaching that the holy spirit was seperate from your salvation..that having the "indwelling of" or "being filled with" the holy spirit was a seperate, extra event that wasn't neccessary to be saved. I asked my pastor directly if it was possible that someone could be saved, but not have the holy spirit and he said yes. There were also hints at me being one of those people since (1) i was new to that church and (2) that I asked the question in the first place. This is not only wrong it's dangerously wrong. If you remove God from salvation, then what is salvation? They told me that salvation is believing that jesus is lord and that he died for your sins and you ask jesus into your heart..but you may still not have the holy spirit. Isn't that IMPOSSIBLE? The scriptures tell us over and over that if you believe that jesus is lord and that through his death and resurrection that you are saved, then you will be baptised with holy spirit/you will recieve the gift of holy spirit. That's what salvation is. I know that every true believer in that congregation had the holy spirit...I saw it in them with their behavior and fruits, even the ones who were being told they didn't have it. I remember one of my closer friends kept asking me "did you get your language yet?" I couldnt help but chuckle (this was after i knew the truth of course)
And think about this..the whole idea that God would withold something so important from a true believer who is earnestly seeking it is absurd. It was God's own promise that anyone who believed would recieve his holy spirit and remember this quote? "anything you ask in my name, I will do" So what does it mean when a honest to goodness believer has been asking and praying to recieve the spirit for months and months? It means you are asking for something you already have and that speaking in tounges has nothing to do with it..right?
oh yeah haha I acctually took one of those spiritual gift tests and it said my 2 strongest gifts were discernment of spirits and knowledge. the pamphlet attatched to it said that my greatests strengths within the church body would be as a missionary or teacher. Never thought of myself as being a missionary, but i do like teaching others about scriptures, bible history and the such...so who knows.

Your points are valid. There seems to be some difference within the A/G churches as the one i attended (also back in Illinois) was very scriptural but they did try to 'prime the pump' everytime someone went forward to obtain tongues ; if its a genuine gift FROM GOD to someone then there should be no priming necessary and God would simply grant it to the person upon a sincere desire to use it for the Kingdom . I have the spritual gifts of Mercy , Exhortation, (and Administration ....to a lesser degree) . I find im operating in them all the time on a daily basis. Our desire should be for God to use us in any circumstance which comes along regardless of our operating spiritual gift. Speaking in Tongues may be 'a' sign of the Holy Spirits indwelling , but generally its the FRUIT of the Spirit which is actually Christlikeness (Gal. 5) that is the determiner whether one has the Holy Spirit in them.
THANK YOU!!! you are the first person who believes in tongues that I have ever talked to who acknowledged that the FRUITS are the only way to prove someone has the indwelling of the spirit, not gifts, because gifts can be and are often faked (Benny hinn and the faith healers). You have no idea how nice it is to hear that. Around here in the east central illinois area (Mattoon to be exact), all you hear from people who believe in tongues is that if you can't do it, you are missing something. The church I went to is called Praise and nobody there would condem you if you didn't speak in tongues. They would say that not everybody does it, which is true, and it doesnt effect salvation, true, and you have other gifts as well, true also. But they would allways end their statements with "you gotta try and get it if you can. It's sooo awesome and feels so great" oh boy :shakehead:
due to all this I did a very long and in depth study of tongues that lasted nearly a year. This is what I learned:

tounges means foreign language- look up the word for this gift in any language the Bible has been written in and look up that definition. you will find answers of "(foreign) language or dialect". Example is the original ancient Greek (glossolalia) which is 'to speak languages'. when someone down the road is said to speak a tounge, you know they speak a language or dialect unfamiliar to you.
So this means the churches who teach that tongues is also sounds of holy joy from the spirit such as chittering, laughing, crying, moaning, mooing, clucking or barking are incorrect.
tongues is plural- every reference to the gift in scripture is plural with only the exception of a specific person speaking a specific language. It is the ability to speak and/or understand foriegn languages.
So this means the churches who teach that tounges is a single language from heaven between God, angels and you, if you have the spirit, are incorrect.
there is only one kind of tounges gift- I never found any scriptural support for a tounges that was only for prayer and another that was for the congregation/public. All information from scripture points to the one ability of speaking foreign languages you previously didn't know.
So this means the churches who teach that there are different forms of tounges are incorrect.
tongues must be understood by all people around you and done in orderly fashion- this is something that Paul tried to pound into the heads of the Corinthian congregation. Everyone, including the speaker, must understand what was said either by already knowing that language or by a translator. Otherwise it was a waste of time and cannot be proven to be a genuine gift.
So this means the churches who practice mosh pit-like tongues extravaganzas or who never have an interpreted tongue message are in error.
tongues was for a sign to unbelievers and for edification of the church body- direct quotes from The Apostle Paul. Anyone who didnt believe Jesus was the real deal and that the church now belongs to ALL who believe would be proven wrong by the confirmation of this gift and that would in turn strengthen the church as a whole and add to it's ranks.
So this means the churches who teach that tongues is for a deeper personal connection to God is incorrect.
tongues may have passed away long ago-there are many compelling reasons to believe this to be true and i have acctually confirmed it for the gift of prophecy simply due to the biblical definition of a prophet. I personally haven't yet put a headstone on tongues, but i do say that if the genuine gift does still exist, it must be incredibly rare. I haven't experienced or heard of any credible accounts of the true gift being used combined that with the purpose and usefulness of such a gift is all but gone.
So this brings into question any church that teaches this gift is attainable, let alone mandatory for the church body.

When I did this study it was acctually hard to find a tongues supporter that was willing to talk about it. The one pastor I did find to talk to me gave his ideas of what it was all about and a few scriptures.. a couple of which had nothing to do with spiritual gifts or tongues. Even the Assembly of God main website stated that some of its core doctrine was not found in scripture, but was based on "assumptions and deductions from an apparent pattern found in the book of acts". it's like alot of people belived in it and had stories of experiences to tell me, but they couldnt tell me why or explain anything with any real satisfaction.

Thats a good treatise you wrote above and im going to copy it and keep it in my Favorites for reference. With false teaching and apostasy rampant in our modern churches we have to be very careful we dont fall into esoteric experiences or deviate from scriptural mandates. In the A/G church I attended down here for awhile, the Senior Pastor announced that ALL people who wish to excersise a supernatural gift of the spirit such as a Tongue or Word of Knowledge or Prophecy for the congregation ....was required to first go up to him during the Service and run it by him and if he approved of it then it would be told from the pulpit --- here is a case of a Pastor who swung the other way when it came to excersising Gifts . Just a tad controlling id say. Needless to say, alot of people left the church after that was announced.
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"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#193

Post by jlay » Sat May 12, 2012 8:15 am

The scriptures tell us over and over that if you believe that jesus is lord and that through his death and resurrection that you are saved, then you will be baptised with holy spirit/you will recieve the gift of holy spirit. That's what salvation is. I know that every true believer in that congregation had the holy spirit...I saw it in them with their behavior and fruits, even the ones who were being told they didn't have it. I remember one of my closer friends kept asking me "did you get your language yet?" I couldnt help but chuckle (this was after i knew the truth of course)
Are you sure?
The scriptures tell us what happened to others, and what is avaialable to us. They are not always the same things. For example:
Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

This is a universal statement regarding those that believe. Tongues is not an option. Yet, in Paul's writings we read differently. (1 Cor. 12:30)
Contradiciton? Or are we reading the scripture with a wreckles hermanuetic and implanting ourself in the audience? I say the latter.

Now, let's look at baptism of the HS. Are we baptized with the HS?
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Who is the "ye" that are promised? The "apostles whom he had chosen." (Acts 1:2) Were they? Yes. Is this same thing promised to us? I say no.

We certainly do NOT see beleivers today doing those things in Mark 16. I see a lot of counterfeits.
So, is there a difference between being baptized with the spirit, and by the spirit? Yes. All believers are baptized by the spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13.
This is the baptism into the body of Christ. It is universal and has no distinction. It is available to Jew or Greek. The baptisms in Acts and Mark were for the commission given to the 12. Prior to Paul there was a definate distinction. Christ's earthly ministry and the ministry of the 12 was JEWISH. If we are operating under that economy today, then those signs WOULD follow. And there wouldn't be any, "I wonder if that gibberish sounding stuff is really tongues." It wouldn't matter because the sick would be healed by laying on hands. Mark 16 doesn't say these signs might follow them. Or, they shall follow only some. Or, they will only follow some when they are on stage at some revival.

In this economy we are baptized into the body by one spirit. The spirit seals us, promises us, and gives us access to the Father, when we believe. (Eph. 1:13)
So, do we all have the HS? Absolutely. But I would say in a different sense than what these others are speaking of. That is why they can say a person can be a believer and not have the HS. They are trying to partake in something that is not theirs, and in doing so distort who the believer is in Christ.
In our economy, as we yield, obey and surrender in faith, we are peretually filled. I do not think this at all relates to the spasmodic, highly emotional displays we see today in the charasmatic movement, such as being literaly drunk with the spirit, slain in the spirit, or knocked to the floor.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#194

Post by CallMeDave » Sat May 12, 2012 4:00 pm

jlay wrote:
The scriptures tell us over and over that if you believe that jesus is lord and that through his death and resurrection that you are saved, then you will be baptised with holy spirit/you will recieve the gift of holy spirit. That's what salvation is. I know that every true believer in that congregation had the holy spirit...I saw it in them with their behavior and fruits, even the ones who were being told they didn't have it. I remember one of my closer friends kept asking me "did you get your language yet?" I couldnt help but chuckle (this was after i knew the truth of course)
Are you sure?
The scriptures tell us what happened to others, and what is avaialable to us. They are not always the same things. For example:
Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.














no.

We certainly do NOT see beleivers today doing those things in Mark 16. I see a lot of counterfeits.
So, is there a difference between being baptized with the spirit, and by the spirit? Yes. All believers are baptized by the spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13.
This is the baptism into the body of Christ. It is universal and has no distinction. It is available to Jew or Greek. The baptisms in Acts and Mark were for the commission given to the 12. Prior to Paul there was a definate distinction. Christ's earthly ministry and the ministry of the 12 was JEWISH. If we are operating under that economy today, then those signs WOULD follow. And there wouldn't be any, "I wonder if that gibberish sounding stuff is really tongues." It wouldn't matter because the sick would be healed by laying on hands. Mark 16 doesn't say these signs might follow them. Or, they shall follow only some. Or, they will only follow some when they are on stage at some revival.

In this economy we are baptized into the body by one spirit. The spirit seals us, promises us, and gives us access to the Father, when we believe. (Eph. 1:13)
So, do we all have the HS? Absolutely. But I would say in a different sense than what these others are speaking of. That is why they can say a person can be a believer and not have the HS. They are trying to partake in something that is not theirs, and in doing so distort who the believer is in Christ.
In our economy, as we yield, obey and surrender in faith, we are peretually filled. I do not think this at all relates to the spasmodic, highly emotional displays we see today in the charasmatic movement, such as being literaly drunk with the spirit, slain in the spirit, or knocked to the floor.

Wasnt Mark 16 an addition in many Bible translations , and did not appear in the earliest manuscripts ? ALL true Believers get indwelled with the H.S. which is a down payment for eternal life , and the power of the H.S. to live the Christian Life is primarily manifested thru the Fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5) which One acquires thru ongoing sanctification .
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Speaking in tongues.

#195

Post by CallMeDave » Sat May 12, 2012 4:00 pm

jlay wrote:
The scriptures tell us over and over that if you believe that jesus is lord and that through his death and resurrection that you are saved, then you will be baptised with holy spirit/you will recieve the gift of holy spirit. That's what salvation is. I know that every true believer in that congregation had the holy spirit...I saw it in them with their behavior and fruits, even the ones who were being told they didn't have it. I remember one of my closer friends kept asking me "did you get your language yet?" I couldnt help but chuckle (this was after i knew the truth of course)
Are you sure?
The scriptures tell us what happened to others, and what is avaialable to us. They are not always the same things. For example:
Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.














no.

We certainly do NOT see beleivers today doing those things in Mark 16. I see a lot of counterfeits.
So, is there a difference between being baptized with the spirit, and by the spirit? Yes. All believers are baptized by the spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13.
This is the baptism into the body of Christ. It is universal and has no distinction. It is available to Jew or Greek. The baptisms in Acts and Mark were for the commission given to the 12. Prior to Paul there was a definate distinction. Christ's earthly ministry and the ministry of the 12 was JEWISH. If we are operating under that economy today, then those signs WOULD follow. And there wouldn't be any, "I wonder if that gibberish sounding stuff is really tongues." It wouldn't matter because the sick would be healed by laying on hands. Mark 16 doesn't say these signs might follow them. Or, they shall follow only some. Or, they will only follow some when they are on stage at some revival.

In this economy we are baptized into the body by one spirit. The spirit seals us, promises us, and gives us access to the Father, when we believe. (Eph. 1:13)
So, do we all have the HS? Absolutely. But I would say in a different sense than what these others are speaking of. That is why they can say a person can be a believer and not have the HS. They are trying to partake in something that is not theirs, and in doing so distort who the believer is in Christ.
In our economy, as we yield, obey and surrender in faith, we are peretually filled. I do not think this at all relates to the spasmodic, highly emotional displays we see today in the charasmatic movement, such as being literaly drunk with the spirit, slain in the spirit, or knocked to the floor.

Wasnt Mark 16 an addition in many Bible translations , and did not appear in the earliest manuscripts ? ALL true Believers get indwelled with the H.S. which is a down payment for eternal life , and the power of the H.S. to live the Christian Life is primarily manifested thru the Fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5) which One acquires thru ongoing sanctification .
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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