restored church of God

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5949
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 95 times
Been liked: 139 times

Re: restored church of God

#61

Post by Byblos » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:07 am

jenwat3 wrote:To speak against the Holy Spirit is to knowingly deny the power of God. Notice the context of Christ's warning. He had just cast out a demon (Matt. 12:22), and the pharisees accused Him of performing this miracle by the power of Satan (v24). They recognized that He was God, yet accused Him anyway. Notice John "3:2 Nicodemus came to Jesus by night and said unto Him, "Rabbi, WE KNOW that You are a teacher come from God, for no man can can do these miracles that you do, except God be with him." Nicodemus said "We know", referring to himself and the other Pharisees. Since these leaders were well aware of the power by which Christ performed miracles, He warned against blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The other way to commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to allow it to be quenched after having received it. (Hebrews 6:4-6) When one's eyes have been opened to God's truth and he continues to sin willfully- to ignore God's warnings within his mind- he WILL eventually lose it. Once this happens, he has commited the unforgiveable sin. Hope this answers your question. :D
It does answer the first part but not the second. Thanks anyway.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: restored church of God

#62

Post by jenna » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:34 am

The reason Jesus made the distinction between the two (Holy Spirit and God) was because the Spirit is God's POWER, not God Himself. Just as I can talk about my spirit, but not be referring to me. The Spirit of God and God Himself are not exactly the same. God's Spirit is what gave Jesus His power.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5949
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 95 times
Been liked: 139 times

Re: restored church of God

#63

Post by Byblos » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:11 pm

jenwat3 wrote:The reason Jesus made the distinction between the two (Holy Spirit and God) was because the Spirit is God's POWER, not God Himself. Just as I can talk about my spirit, but not be referring to me. The Spirit of God and God Himself are not exactly the same. God's Spirit is what gave Jesus His power.
Jesus is God's Word and yet you believe He is God. If God's Power were incarnated and not his Word, would you then have believed that the Holy Spirit is God but not the Word?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: restored church of God

#64

Post by jenna » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:13 pm

Jesus was not God's word, but He BROUGHT God's Word here to earth for man to understand. One analogy I use to define the difference between the Holy Spirit and God is this: just think of God as a car. God is the car, and the Holy Spirit is the MOTOR of the car. It is what gives the car the power and ability to move. Without the "motor" , having a car would be useless. God's Spirit is our "motor", it is what gives us our power. This may be a bad comparison, but I hope it helps some. Also, one other point. The "motor" and the "car" are two separate things, yes, and so you can talk about the one without talking about the other, however you MUST have them both together in order to have anything of value. This is why it is possible to talk against the Holy Spirit, or "motor", and not be talking against God, or the "car". I hope this helps you somewhat. :?
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
zoegirl
Old School
Posts: 3927
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: east coast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: restored church of God

#65

Post by zoegirl » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:08 pm

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15( John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")


.
JOhn 1:1-15

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... sion=47;31;

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: restored church of God

#66

Post by jenna » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:24 pm

Let me read this thoroughly. This is about the Holy Spirit, right? Give me a few pointers here on what your thoughts are, Zoe. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my post? Either way is fine, naturally, but some input instead of just a verse would be a little more helpful so I know how to respond. :?
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
zoegirl
Old School
Posts: 3927
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: east coast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: restored church of God

#67

Post by zoegirl » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:56 pm

jenwat3 wrote:Jesus was not God's word, but He BROUGHT God's Word here to earth for man to understand. One analogy I use to define the difference between the Holy Spirit and God is this: just think of God as a car. God is the car, and the Holy Spirit is the MOTOR of the car. It is what gives the car the power and ability to move. Without the "motor" , having a car would be useless. God's Spirit is our "motor", it is what gives us our power. This may be a bad comparison, but I hope it helps some. Also, one other point. The "motor" and the "car" are two separate things, yes, and so you can talk about the one without talking about the other, however you MUST have them both together in order to have anything of value. This is why it is possible to talk against the Holy Spirit, or "motor", and not be talking against God, or the "car". I hope this helps you somewhat. :?

I was responding to your comment above that Christ was not the Word of God. SOrry for my ambiguity. It is pretty clear in John;s gospel that Jesus was the Word and the Word was God. You were responding to Byblos's post about Jesus being the word of God. I posted JOhn 1:1-15, which is pretty clear.

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: restored church of God

#68

Post by jenna » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:04 pm

Ok, you made an excellent point there. Can't really debate this (yet :lol: ). Does the rest of my post make any sense? So Jesus was the Word, ok, I was wrong there. However this doesn't really explain how the Holy Spirit could be an actual being when it is the power or life of God. Do my questions make any sense? Please tell me your thoughts on this, Zoe.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
zoegirl
Old School
Posts: 3927
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: east coast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: restored church of God

#69

Post by zoegirl » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:50 pm

jenwat3 wrote:Ok, you made an excellent point there. Can't really debate this (yet :lol: ). Does the rest of my post make any sense? So Jesus was the Word, ok, I was wrong there. However this doesn't really explain how the Holy Spirit could be an actual being when it is the power or life of God. Do my questions make any sense? Please tell me your thoughts on this, Zoe.

Well, I certainly won't argue that the trinity is an easy concept. Exactly HOW there can be three persons (states?) existing within one God is a pretty tough idea. But I don't think the concept should be disposed of becuase of its difficulty. For example, if you are willing to accept that CHrist was divine as well as God the Father, then certainly you can accept the idea of multiple person within one godhead. But I think byblos and Kuriero have made excellent points, however. It seems evident in scripture that each person of the trinity is treated an having a separate identity. Each has roles and duties in their own right. JAc also made some excellent points in another thread (one in which the person involved denied the deity of Christ, something you have never done). I shall try to find it, as he was very eloquent in his description of the trinity.

Actually, I think you are closer to the idea of the trinity than you think. The car and the motor would be the same "vehicle" but different parts. IF you see this as being acceptable, then why not the trinity?

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: restored church of God

#70

Post by jenna » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:03 pm

Although I don't have the time to elaborate, I don't believe in the trinity because Jesus and God are two separate beings. As a husband and wife, if you will. They are one family, but two separate beings. There is God the Father (husband) and God the Son (wife). The Holy Spirit is the unity they share, not a separate being.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
zoegirl
Old School
Posts: 3927
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: east coast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: restored church of God

#71

Post by zoegirl » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:19 pm

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15( John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")



Good old transitive property in math

a=b b=c so a=c

JEsus was the Word and the Word was God....They can be separate persons, beings, whatever you want to call them, but if they were both God and yet there is only one GOd (monotheism), then they must be different persons or beings or whatever.....

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: restored church of God

#72

Post by jenna » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:23 pm

There is only one God FAMILY (two Beings, one family). What are your beliefs on Monotheism, Zoe? Do you believe in one God? And if so, please give me some verses. (anyone is welcome to do this, I am not speaking only to Zoe here.)
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
zoegirl
Old School
Posts: 3927
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: east coast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: restored church of God

#73

Post by zoegirl » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:26 pm

jenwat3 wrote:There is only one God FAMILY (two Beings, one family). What are your beliefs on Monotheism, Zoe? Do you believe in one God? And if so, please give me some verses. (anyone is welcome to do this, I am not speaking only to Zoe here.)
Yes, I believe in ONE God in three person, similar to you believing in ONE god in two persons. (tell me how your description of FAMILY is any different? Is there only one GOd or isn't there?

DEU 6:4 Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

LOok, you keep insisting that there is only one God, so what are your verses?

If we agree that there is only one God, then it only remains to establish whether it is in two or three persons or beings in this one GOD. I believe that there is one God and three persons, so far it sounds like you believe that there is ONE GOd in two person or beings.

IF not, then how in the world do we differ? Either there is one God or there isn't. Either this one God exists in different person or beings or whatever, or we have three (or two) Gods.

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: restored church of God

#74

Post by jenna » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:40 am

As you stated earlier we may have to agree to disagree on this. In Deut. 6:4, it reads "Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is One". If we take this at face value, then it can be understood why many think there is only one God. But looking at it a little further explains it better. The Hebrew terms from which this verse is translated are written with the English translation. "Shama, (Hear), yisrial (O israel), Yahweh (the Lord) Elohim (God) [is] Yahweh (Lord) echad (alone)." This verse should actually read "Hear O Israel, The Lord God is Lord alone". It is not talking about God being "one", but rather about worshipping God alone, with no other false gods. And there is another point to make. Before the N.T., most people had no knowledge of there being two Gods. They only dealt with one, Jesus Himself. The bible itself shows this. John 5:37 says " And the Father Himself, which has sent Me, has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." John 1:18 says "No man has seen God at anytime, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him". Also to further make a point, in Genesis 1:26 "let us make man in OUR image" This here should tell you that there are two Gods. If there is only one God, (even in a 3-in-1) then in order to say this, God would have to have been talking to HIMSELF. The plain teaching of the bible is that there are actually TWO "Gods", which make up ONE family, just as a human family can be comprised of two, three, four or more, it is still ONE, although they are separate.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: restored church of God

#75

Post by jenna » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:42 pm

I hope this helps at least a little. I really enjoy our chats, hope it doesn't have to end now. Thanks for all your comments and input (everyone). And the verses. Give me more!! :lol:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

Post Reply