restored church of God

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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jenna
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Re: restored church of God

#16

Post by jenna » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:26 pm

Byblos wrote:
jenwat3 wrote:Ok, all things are possible with God. But how can two people with two different sets of beliefs possibly agree on salvation? Yes, they both worship God, but are they both worshipping the TRUE God, or the "god of this world"?
Jen,

What is your understanding of the Gospel as to the requirements for salvation? What must one do to be saved?
Believe in Jesus and the fact that He died for our sins. After doing that, we must try to follow all God's commandments and ask forgiveness when we inevitably do sin.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: restored church of God

#17

Post by FFC » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:34 pm

jenwat3 wrote:
Byblos wrote:
jenwat3 wrote:Ok, all things are possible with God. But how can two people with two different sets of beliefs possibly agree on salvation? Yes, they both worship God, but are they both worshipping the TRUE God, or the "god of this world"?
Jen,

What is your understanding of the Gospel as to the requirements for salvation? What must one do to be saved?
Believe in Jesus and the fact that He died for our sins. After doing that, we must try to follow all God's commandments and ask forgiveness when we inevitably do sin.
Jen, when you say After doing that we must try to follow all God's commandments and ask forgiveness when we inevitably do sin is this in response to God's grace which He bestowed on you, or a requirement to stay saved?
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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Re: restored church of God

#18

Post by jenna » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:39 pm

Actually both. God's grace and sacrifice saves us. If we accept this we are "saved". However, this doesnt allow us to live a life of sin afterward. We must live the life God would want us to. After we accept His sacrifice, of course. :D
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: restored church of God

#19

Post by FFC » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:51 pm

jenwat3 wrote:Actually both. God's grace and sacrifice saves us. If we accept this we are "saved". However, this doesnt allow us to live a life of sin afterward. We must live the life God would want us to. After we accept His sacrifice, of course. :D
So we are not really eternally secure unless we continue to do our part? Sorry, I'm just curious.
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Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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Re: restored church of God

#20

Post by Enigma7457 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:59 pm

I agree with everyone 8) .

I believe that all that is needed to be saved is to admit our sin and put our faith in Christ. HOWEVER, if we do this and intentionally continue in a life of sin, we are not truly saved, since we never meant our confession. If we do not make an attempt, regardless of how far short we fall, we are not truly putting out faith in Christ, but only making the outward sign of saying we are.

Make sense?

"Faith without actions is dead" (something like that)

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Re: restored church of God

#21

Post by jenna » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:30 pm

Yes, enigma. You said it a little better than I did, but my thoughts exactly. :D
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Re: restored church of God

#22

Post by FFC » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:04 am

jenwat3 wrote:Yes, enigma. You said it a little better than I did, but my thoughts exactly. :D
I see what you are saying, but I think the works we do after we believe and are saved are not to keep us saved, but to be obedient to God. If we don't obey God we will be disciplined, but not cast out...because if we say we can be cast out then where is the line?

But I guess we're kind of getting off topic aren't we?

Hey Jen, is the Restored Church of God an off shoot of Armstrongs "Worldwide Church of God?
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
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Re: restored church of God

#23

Post by jenna » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:08 pm

So are you saying that if I accept Jesus and get saved, and then turn around and commit murder, it really doesn't matter because God says I'm saved? I don't really think that's how salvation works.
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Re: restored church of God

#24

Post by Byblos » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:11 pm

jenwat3 wrote:So are you saying that if I accept Jesus and get saved, and then turn around and commit murder, it really doesn't matter because God says I'm saved? I don't really think that's how salvation works.
On the other hand, what amount of good works will make you saved? Who defines what that limit is? Do bad deeds negate good ones so that at the end the net result must be good (for salvation) or bad (for eternal punishment)? And if salvation is contingent upon good works (personal effort), would that not be grounds for boasting? After all, you know something I don't.

You believe in Christ you are saved. You may at times look inwardly and doubt, even doubt that you were saved. We are by nature sinful beings. God's promise, however, cannot be doubted:
John 3:16 (NIV) wrote:"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"
.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: restored church of God

#25

Post by FFC » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:32 pm

jenwat3 wrote:So are you saying that if I accept Jesus and get saved, and then turn around and commit murder, it really doesn't matter because God says I'm saved? I don't really think that's how salvation works.
I'm just saying there is only one person that saves and that is God not us. Moses was a murderer. David, the man after God's own heart, was an adulterer and a murderer...I think you will see as you examine all of our heros of the faith that they all struggled with sin and most of them, if not all, fell into it. Which of them would you suggest to God were not his children?

Regardless of being saved or not, people sin...and not just physically but mentally. Intention is just as bad as involving yourself in sin. If we could judge people saved based on what they thought, said, or did nobody would make the cut. Nobody. I thank my God that his grace is my bases for being saved and not anything I could ever do. Otherwise we might as well have stayed in the laws works based form of salvation and saved Jesus the agony of dying on the cross for us.
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Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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Re: restored church of God

#26

Post by Enigma7457 » Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:51 pm

I think what is important (after we are saved) is the attempt. If we give our heart to Jesus and confess him as our God, we are saved. But, if after we do this we ignore Jesus and go about our own business, then i do not believe we are saved, since i would not think that the confession was real.

I was once told that the test of love in a marriage is obedience. If i love my wife, i will make an effort to stop taking my socks off inside-out so she has to fix them everytime she does laundry. Now, if i keep forgetting to fix my own socks, that doesn't mean i don't love my wife. However, if i say to her, "Forget you, fix the socks yourself," then i would not exactly be a loving husband, would i?

On the flip-side, my wife will still love me unconditionally (as Christ does us), whether or not i fix my socks.

Let me sum it up simply: IF we truly confess our hearts to Jesus (truly and not just outwardly), then our hearts are changed. At that time, we are new people. We will, with our new, changed hearts, try to uphold God's word. Some will do good, others will not. But we will all try.

However, IF we pretend to confess our hearts to Jesus (Outwardly and NOTtruly) then we have the same old stinking hearts as before. So, we will not try to uphold God's word.

So, back to the analogy, IF i truly love my wife (truly and not just outwardly) i will fix the darn socks so she doesn't have to. However, IF i pretend to love my wife (outwardly and NOT truly), then i could care less about the socks. Therefore, the TEST of salvation is obedience. What i mean by that is: Our outward actions will reflect our heart's desires.

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Re: restored church of God

#27

Post by Byblos » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:46 pm

Enigma7457 wrote:I think what is important (after we are saved) is the attempt. If we give our heart to Jesus and confess him as our God, we are saved. But, if after we do this we ignore Jesus and go about our own business, then i do not believe we are saved, since i would not think that the confession was real.

I was once told that the test of love in a marriage is obedience. If i love my wife, i will make an effort to stop taking my socks off inside-out so she has to fix them everytime she does laundry. Now, if i keep forgetting to fix my own socks, that doesn't mean i don't love my wife. However, if i say to her, "Forget you, fix the socks yourself," then i would not exactly be a loving husband, would i?

On the flip-side, my wife will still love me unconditionally (as Christ does us), whether or not i fix my socks.

Let me sum it up simply: IF we truly confess our hearts to Jesus (truly and not just outwardly), then our hearts are changed. At that time, we are new people. We will, with our new, changed hearts, try to uphold God's word. Some will do good, others will not. But we will all try.

However, IF we pretend to confess our hearts to Jesus (Outwardly and NOTtruly) then we have the same old stinking hearts as before. So, we will not try to uphold God's word.

So, back to the analogy, IF i truly love my wife (truly and not just outwardly) i will fix the darn socks so she doesn't have to. However, IF i pretend to love my wife (outwardly and NOT truly), then i could care less about the socks. Therefore, the TEST of salvation is obedience. What i mean by that is: Our outward actions will reflect our heart's desires.
This is certainly what many Christians believe. The problem with it is that it invariably (and perhaps unintentionally) adds up to a works-based salvation as salvation is not only contingent upon God's initial grace but also upon our actions thereafter. If we are saved by God's grace alone (and scripture is abound that we are) then no measure of works is enough either to earn salvation or to keep it. I agree that genuine belief brings about genuine change (whatever genuine means). The question is what does it mean if it does not, or if one loses the zeal for it. Does it mean one is no longer saved? No it does not as that would make God's promise untrustworthy. Assurance of salvation is from God and God alone, it cannot be rescinded. Our doubts are of our sinful nature. Satan will make you believe you're not saved so that you will carry on with your sinful self and serve as an example to others who may not be (saved).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: restored church of God

#28

Post by Enigma7457 » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:58 pm

I do agree that the works themselves are meaningless (in regards to our salvation). However, a saved soul will try to follow God. Outwardly confessing Christ as your savior doesn't mean anything unless you inwardly mean it. Since God is the only judge of our hearts, i cannot look at a fellow christian and know whether or not he is saved. HOWEVER, a TRULY saved person will (usually) show the outward signs. And even if they don't, that means nothing towards their salvation. Only God can truly judge the heart. All i mean is that a saved man (or woman) will (usually) act like a saved man (or woman).

That being said, i can see where some people would slowly slip into a works-based salvation mindset.

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Re: restored church of God

#29

Post by jenna » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:58 pm

The start of salvation begins with accepting Jesus, yes, but our actions also speak for themselves, and in the end, that is what we will be judged by. In Revelation 20:12-13 "And I saw the dead, small and great standing before God, and books were opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works." Accepting Jesus is only the first step. We cannot truly say we have been saved if we turn our backs on Christ and do not live the way we should. And no, I am not saying that works alone are enough for salvation. It's a two-step process.
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Re: restored church of God

#30

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:30 am

jenwat3 wrote:The start of salvation begins with accepting Jesus, yes, but our actions also speak for themselves, and in the end, that is what we will be judged by. In Revelation 20:12-13 "And I saw the dead, small and great standing before God, and books were opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works." Accepting Jesus is only the first step. We cannot truly say we have been saved if we turn our backs on Christ and do not live the way we should. And no, I am not saying that works alone are enough for salvation. It's a two-step process.
In other words, God's grace is not sufficient to bring about salvation. It must be completed by 'our step' for it to be effective in the end. Is this about right?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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