Horses and the Book of Mormon

[zoegirl]

There is no evidence of horses before they were brought over from Europe. While scientists agree that horses existed before 10,000BC, they migrated over the land bridge and bred wildly in europe and Asia. Scholars agree that there were no horses before the Spanish broguht them over,

[Sargon]

No Zoegirl, scholars do not agree. You can choose for yourself to ignore the refutations of this old claim, but it would not be honest.


http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table= ... pts&id=129

http://www.fairwiki.org/index.php/Book_ ... mals#Horse

Have you nothing to say regarding the guerilla warfare in the Book of Mormon?

Sargon

[zoegirl]

I knew you were going to bring those articles up

ACtually, I had already done my research...and had read the articles in question (if you google horses and america they are among the first to come up)...HOWEVER...

Still don't agree...your sources are only by Mormon writers. Find me a scholarly paper (scientist/ evolutionist) that supports this.

THIS FROM YOUR WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE

We can draw the following tentative conclusions:

Ass (donkey, they bleeped the common name) - the horse-like tapir is a possibility
Bees - not required in the Americas by the text, but pre-Columbian examples also exist
Cow - bovine species (e.g. buffalo) were present in the Americas
Elephant - only necessary in the Jaredite era, there is both traditional, inscriptional, and biologic remains as evidence for the Book of Mormon's claims
Horse - there is some evidence, not yet deemed definitive, which suggests that the true horse may have been known in at least some parts of Mesoamerica in pre-Columbian times before Christ. There is also ample precedent for naming different animals with common names, and there are other New World candidates, such as deer and tapirs.
Silkworms - present in the New World with other options also available for silk cloth; see silk
Swine - native swine species existed, though only Jaredite use is noted (unsurprisingly, since Nephites were under the law of Moses).
[edit]Endnotes


So let's see...their argument is that people mistakenly called a tapir an ass?! (they don't look alike to me!!) and their research on horses is still indefinite...one is most likely from a Spaniard horse and two teeth?

ALSO

Besides, "everyone knows" there were no horses in the Americas before Columbus. Joseph Smith would have understood this common belief. If he was trying to perpetuate a fraud, why include an element that nearly everyone would have heard about, especially when it plays such a small role in the book?


Since when did "everyone know" back in Smith's time?! How can anyone even substantiate this claim...this is very weak.

Awfully convenient arguements....there may have been horses....but just in case, "horse" could mean other animals such as deer.

MIghty shaky that only sources you cite are Mormons


AS to the guerilla warfare...I am admittedly weak on the art of warfare My brother was the one who read and loved that book. However, I seem to recall in my American History class (really digging deep here!!) learning about the guerilla like fighting that the American revolutionaries anacted when facing the British. I seem to recall that they hid in the trees and attacked in small forces.

If I remember correctly, you argued that Joseph Smith would not have been aware of such tactics as guerilla warfare. I contend that the "idea" of guerilla warfare is not as new as you posted. This from Wikipedia

Guerrilla warfare can be conceived as a continuum. [1] On the low end are small-scale raids, ambushes and attacks. In ancient times these actions were often associated with smaller tribal polities fighting a larger empire, as in the struggle of Rome against the Spanish tribes for over a century. In the modern era they continue with the operations of terrorist, insurgent or revolutionary groups. The upper end is composed of a fully integrated political-military strategy, comprising both large and small units, engaging in constantly shifting mobile warfare, both on the low-end "guerrilla" scale, and that of large, mobile formations with modern arms. The latter phase came to fullest expression in the operations of Mao tse-Tung in China and Vo Nguyen Giap in Vietnam. In between are a large variety of situations - from the struggles of Palestinian guerrillas in the contemporary era, to Spanish and Portuguese irregulars operating with the conventional units of British General Wellington, during the Peninsular War against Napoleon.[2].


This form of basic warfare is hardly a recent invention, although I have no doubt that it has been perfected to an art form

Also, I seem to remember that the Romans were the ones that actually developed much of the organized warfare and that those that came before WERE the random small fighting forces. I was unde rthe impression that was why they were so indomitable as an army.

Someone else will probably have more expert background on the strategies and history of warfare...that was my memory and the quick web research. My area of expertise is biology...I objected to your claim about the horses.

My conclusions?
1) The animal arguements are weak, this is the evidence?!
2) Joseph Smith, and if my male teenage students are any indications, would have no problem understanding, creating, knowing about the type of fighting know as guerilla warfare. Isn't knowing about battle strategies part of the Y chromosome?!?

Sorry about the last, guys, I always like to joke with my students that making cool sound effect noises must be one the Y chromosome, since all of my nephews could make cool noises for their cars and none of my nieces could.

Zoegirl

[Gman]

There is no evidence of horses before they were brought over from Europe. While scientists agree that horses existed before 10,000BC, they migrated over the land bridge and bred wildly in europe and Asia. Scholars agree that there were no horses before the Spanish broguht them over,

Good point zoegirl.... And if we look closely at the Spalding manuscript we can see where Joseph Smith got his idea for horses...

MS -- "The ground was plowed by horses . . ." (p. 23) "Hamboon mounted on an eligant Horse richly caparosoned. . ." (p. 89)

BM -- "And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did . . . raise . . . flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses." (Enos 21)

"And it came to pass that when Ammon had made ready the horses and chariots . . ." (Alma 18:12)

The Jaredites also used horses. (Ether 9:19)

Quote: "No herds of American horses roamed the plains of America when Columbus arrived. No evidence of Pre-Columbian bridles, bits, saddles, horseshoes, etc. have ever been uncovered. These facts alone put the Spalding horses and the Book of Mormon horses in the same category. Although Spalding does not have the Book of Mormon's chariot-pulling horses, he does have wheeled mechanisms rolling on his ground and war-horses in his battles. The parallel here is a significant one."

Source: http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/SCIOTA/Bown04a.htm#P46a

[puritan lad]

Thanks Zoegirl. I didn't feel like doing this myself. Sargon, there is my "foundation".

Did I mention elephants in the Book of Mormon as well?

[zoegirl]

BTW, interesting article I found when researching horses...see the God and science thread, won't drift off here, but I thought it was significant to the credibility of the fossil record!!

[zoegirl]

Just to be fair...took 15 minutes in Google scholar...here are simply some of my sources. None are religious, none are anti-Mormon.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/bei ... ction.html

http://www.svguide.com/s01/s01hagerman.htm

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... e_age.html

http://science-mag.aaas.org/cgi/content ... 3/5403/824

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/95/24/14576

All agree that the extinction occurred roughly 10,000 years ago, far earlier than any amerindian tribes presented by Smith

This also concerning the orgins of the Amerindians
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr= ... JQ#PPA2,M1

check out early theories...so Smith's ideas were not even original! Essentially suggesting that from Columbus's time, biblical scholars attmepted to link the lost tribes to the natives

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-0 ... 0.CO%3B2-5

Clutton-Brock J, 1996. Horses in history. In: Horses through time, 1st ed (Olsen S, ed). Dublin: Roberts Rinehart Publishers; 83—102.

[Sargon]

Zoegirl,
I am astounded!! Did you not understand the first 3 times when I said that this thread is not about horses?? I really have no problem discussing horses with you, but you are derailing the topic of this thread!! I have only suggested one evidence for the Book of Mormon and already the thread is being derailed.
I am not an expert on the horse issue, but I am more than happy to discuss it with you. It is obvious that you are far more interested in discussing horses than you are the original topic, so I will leave it to you to create a new thread. You can even copy and paste your last two posts if you want in the new thread. That is fine. Just don't derail this one.

Sargon

[bizzt]

I thought I would move this over here.

[acrossandasong]

Horses ?

[Sargon]

My posting will be limited until wednesday. I will not be able to engage the issue due to a lack of time until then. My calculus exam holds a higher priority.


Sargon

[zoegirl]

The irony is that I have no huge interest either. I understood HIs thread to concern evidence for mormonism. Since that included his statement about the existence of horses, I thought it was free game.

I was perfectly happy with broadening the topic...but my problems are still there with the sources.