Mormonism debunked by Spalding!!

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Mormonism debunked by Spalding!!

#1

Post by Gman » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:27 pm

Folks,

I'm opening a new post here that will examine very closely the origins of the Book of Mormon (BoM). Most of this information is taken from the book "Who Really Wrote the BoM. Spalding Enigma" by authors Wayne Cowdrey, Howard Davis and Arthur Vanick. The book is loaded with the testimonies of the people that lived in around Smith, Rigdon and Cowdery at that time.. I suggest that you buy a copy of this book to see how the BoM evolved...

Image
"Who Really Wrote the BoM, The Spalding Enigma"

This book I believe is the key to understanding the Book of Mormon's origin..

To get started, I will give you a brief overview to the history of the BoM and the Spalding account.. In 1812 (a number of years before the Book of Mormon was ever written) Reverend Solomon Spalding wrote a novel about a group of ancient sailors who sailed across the Atlantic Ocean only to land in America and build an ancient civilization there. Doesn't this sound familiar?? Spalding however died later in 1816 and his manuscript was never published. However some years later in March of 1830 came the Book of Mormon showing some of the exact same parallels as the Spalding manuscript. How did this happen?

Some of these parallels can be found at the following website The Dale R. Broadhurst "Spalding Papers":

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/SCIOTA/Bown01a.htm

or

http://www.geocities.com/lds_research/s ... lding.html

To get to the meat of the book and understand its purpose, here is one excerpt form the book called "Who Really Wrote the BoM."

"Once the basic facts of the Spalding Enigma have been set forth, it becomes clear that the issue is whether evidence supporting a conspiracy by Joseph Smith and others to transform Solomon Spalding's manuscript into The Book of Mormon is strong enough to overcome the inevitable question of reasonable doubt. With that in mind, let us begin by noting that present Mormon objections (in red) to the Spalding Enigma can be effectively reduced to a list of four basic points:

Objection 1. Sidney Rigdon was neither employed by nor otherwise connected with any print shop in Pittsburgh. In fact, no evidence exists to indicate he was ever in Pittsburgh prior to his having moved there in 1822, six years after Spalding's death (though his son, John Wycliffe Rigdon, does admit his father visited the city as early as 1818). Moreover, Sidney Rigdon denied any involvement in the Spalding Enigma in a strongly worded letter written in May 1839, in reply to allegations made by Spalding's widow.

Counter - New evidence has been uncovered to show that Sidney Rigdon did indeed frequent Pittsburgh during the years 1812-16, thus putting the lie to more than 150 years of often vehement Mormon denials.

Objection 2. The origin of the so-called Spalding Enigma can be traced to the vindictive designs of one Doctor Philastus Hurlbut, who engineered the entire myth as part of a personal vendetta against the Mormons for their having excommunicated him in 1833. Indeed, all of the statements of non-Mormon witnesses collected by Hurlbut and others like him between approximately 1830 and 1900 are unacceptable as evidence because of their antiMormon bias.

Counter - New evidence shows that Doctor Hurlbut was clearly not the originator of the Spalding theory. At worst, he was merely the first person to attempt to investigate it in a sincere effort to determine whether it held the key to uncovering the true origin of The Book of Mormon.

Objection 3. Although The Book of Mormon was published in March 1830, no credible evidence exists to show that Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon had dealings with each other prior to December of that year, thus ruling out all possibility that Rigdon could have supplied Smith with the text for that work.

Counter - There is now compelling evidence that Rigdon did in fact visit Joseph Smith from 1827-1829 just prior to the BoM publication in March 1830. There are eight different people who seem confident in asserting that Rigdon and Smith were together in New York on what appear to have been at least six or seven different occasions between the spring of 1827 and the summer of 1830. All of these people offer what they clearly believe to be either reliable memories or equally valid information received from others.

Objection 4. Finally, comparisons of The Book of Mormon to an earlier Solomon Spalding work called Manuscript Story-Conneaut Creek, a copy of which was recovered in 1833 from an old trunk in Hartwick, New York, show no similarities whatsoever between the two works. In addition, Mormons have consistently argued that no credible evidence exists to suggest Spalding ever wrote anything else, that Manuscript Story-Conneaut Creek and A Manuscript Found are one and the same, and that this alone is sufficient to dispel the Spalding Enigma.

Counter - A considerable body of evidence exists indicating that Solomon Spalding wrote a second novel entitled A Manuscript Found, which disappeared prior to 1833.

Summary - In order to properly present Solomon Spalding's case, and to demonstrate that all of the above objections are historically deficient, it will be necessary to examine these points individually and to carefully consider the facts surrounding each of them."

I'm going to be examining this book very closely. Anyone who wants to join in please do... I'm going to start with Objection 1 and work my way down to the other objections. Please note, some of the information I will be providing has been gathered from the other posts in this forum as well..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#2

Post by Sargon » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:17 am

Objection 4. Finally, comparisons of The Book of Mormon to an earlier Solomon Spalding work called Manuscript Story-Conneaut Creek, a copy of which was recovered in 1833 from an old trunk in Hartwick, New York, show no similarities whatsoever between the two works. In addition, Mormons have consistently argued that no credible evidence exists to suggest Spalding ever wrote anything else, that Manuscript Story-Conneaut Creek and A Manuscript Found are one and the same, and that this alone is sufficient to dispel the Spalding Enigma.

Counter - A considerable body of evidence exists indicating that Solomon Spalding wrote a second novel entitled A Manuscript Found, which disappeared prior to 1833.
Wait, I thought you said that the Manuscript Story you have been quoting from all along was a carbon copy of the Book of Mormon?? Has the story changed?

I am not well versed in this topic, so I will be of very little help. I do however suggest a couple of other sources for information regarding this topic, that you might find a more balanced approach to the subject.

First, a review of the book that Gman is taking his information from. I have not read this review.
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=584

Here is a very long discussion about the topic by mostly critics of the LDS church, with the highly respected author Dan Vogel representing the opposition to the theory. It appears our very own Fortigurn has contributed to the discussion.
http://www.mormondiscussions.com/discus ... .php?t=868

Here is a conversation between Wade Englund and Art Vanick, one of the authors of the book.
http://www.aros.net/~wenglund/vanick.htm

On this you can find more information pulled together by Wade Englund on the topic.
http://www.aros.net/~wenglund/Topic.htm

That should be enough to start. I have not read the full content of any of these pages yet, but I provide them as a place to read others thoughts on the subject.
Because I am not prepared nor sufficiently researched to deal with all of the issues that Gman will bring up I will not be able to present a rebuttal to his charges at this time. I challenge Gman to summon his courage and seek out someone who can in an appropriate forum.

Sargon

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#3

Post by Gman » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:10 pm

Sargon wrote:Wait, I thought you said that the Manuscript Story you have been quoting from all along was a carbon copy of the Book of Mormon?? Has the story changed?
I have not specifically addressed Spalding's first story called "Manuscript Story" yet. There were two books written by Spalding... Manuscript Story was written by Spalding before his novel called "Manuscript Found." Basically Manuscript Found was derived from Manuscript Story... But don't worry, we'll get into that one too..

Also, you might want to take a look at this video (by the authors) about the BoM connection to the Spalding manuscripts.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ding&hl=en
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#4

Post by Gman » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:52 pm

So lets look at Objection 1 here...

Objection 1. Sidney Rigdon was neither employed by nor otherwise connected with any print shop in Pittsburgh. In fact, no evidence exists to indicate he was ever in Pittsburgh prior to his having moved there in 1822, six years after Spalding's death (though his son, John Wycliffe Rigdon, does admit his father visited the city as early as 1818). Moreover, Sidney Rigdon denied any involvement in the Spalding Enigma in a strongly worded letter written in May 1839, in reply to allegations made by Spalding's widow.

To understand the connections between Spalding, Sidney Rigdon (who took the book from Spalding) and Joseph Smith, we need to understand that these men were fascinated by ancient Indian burial mounds, legends, old ruins, and the many strange artifacts.

Image

Consider the words of Joseph Smith's mother:

Quote: "In the course of our evening conversations Joseph would give us some of the most amusing recitals which could be imagined he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent their dress their manner of traveling the animals which they rode the cities that were built by them the structure of their buildings with every particular of their mode of warfare their religious worship as particularly as though he had spent his life with them."

As for evidence that Sidney Rigdon was interested in the Indian mounds, there are several accounts on record. The first of these is found in a statement given by Samuel F. Whitney about 1885: "I came to Kirtland, 0., in 1826.. . .heard Sidney Rigdon preach in Squire Sawyers' orchard in 1827 or '28. He said how desirable it would be to know who built the forts and mounds about the country. Soon it would all be revealed."

A somewhat similar statement was provided to Amos S. Hayden by Darwin Atwater in 1873:

That [Rigdon] knew before [i.e., "had prior knowledge"] of the coming of The Book of Mormon is to me certain, from what he said on the first of his visits at my father's, some years before. He gave a wonderful description of the mounds and other antiquities found in some parts of America, and said they must have been made by the Aborigines. He said there was a book to be published containing an account of those things. He spoke of these . . . as being a thing most extraordinary.

Next Spalding...

Spalding along with some of the first European settlers that came to North America were not shy about digging up the graves of their Indian predecessors in Northern America.. They were curious about these mounds and wanted to know the stories behind them..

So what did Spalding do? In a nutshell he decided to write a story called "Manuscript Story" and then later another story called "Manuscript Found" that attempted "to show that the American Indians are the descendants of lost tribes and that "They buried their dead in large heaps, which caused the mounds so common in this country. Their arts, sciences, and civilization were brought into view in order to account for all the curious antiquities found in various parts of North America."

Next we will examine how Sidney Rigdon stole the book from Spalding called "Manuscript Found."
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#5

Post by Gman » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:10 pm

Before we move on with the objections, I feel we need to review the parallels between the Spalding manuscript and the BoM again..

It appears that many who read about the similarities do not fully agree that there are any parallels.. We need to clean this confusion up... There are just TOO MANY PARALLELS between the two manuscripts to pass it off as being merely coincidental...

Here are only a few of the similarities between the two accounts... As you can see, the plot is identical...

* The records were deposited for safekeeping by the historian
* The records were subsequently found in a box buried in the ground
* The cover had to be pried up
* The records required translation
* Both are records of early inhabitants of America
* Both records include an account of the departure of a small party from the Old World.
* The people crossed the ocean in a sailing vessel
* A great storm arose
* The voyagers became frightened, and were lost
* They prayed to God for the storm to cease
* Then the storm ceased
* They sailed further several days and then landed
* They landed on the American Continent
* There were many rivers and lakes in the land
* There were many tribes or races of people
* The people built cities
* Built along the seashore and bodies of water
* Some modern building methods were used
* Some of the people built houses of wood
* Others lived in tents
* They fortified their cities and borders
* These fortifications were similar to each other
* The people were governed by kings
* They had a system of taxation
* The people were agricultural
* Corn and wheat were raised
* They coined their own money
* They practiced polygamy
* There was magic and sorcery
* They thought the Earth revolved around the sun
* They used a seer-stone

Now take a look at these next few parallels.. From here he can clearly see how Joseph Smith made his connection with Spalding that these American Indians were actually Jewish.. Unless you know of another monotheistic religion that performed sacrifices for their sins and observed a sabbath day...

* They had priests and high priests
* Believed that man was created by a supernatural Being
* They offered sacrifices
* Some of the people worshipped a great spirit
* The Lord speaks with a voice of thunder
* They believed in a good and an evil spiritual power
* The people believed that man had a soul
* They believed in prayer
* The people obtained inspiration from heaven
* They believed in a life after death
* Payment of tithing was demanded
* They observed a sabbath day

Next we see that there were two different groups of people living on the American continent...And some were light skinned while others were dark skinned.. Hmmmm, sounds familiar?

* There were two dominent, but contrasting races or tribes
* Some of the people were dark, others lighter
* The people had a great leader with four sons

Looks like these two groups didn't like each other... The plot thickens...

* Preparation for war was a constant occupation
* There were wars between two factions
* Men of one of the tribes painted their heads with red
* Men of one tribe shaved their heads
* The last war was to be one of extermination
* Armies of huge size were assembled
* They were armed with swords and with bows and arrows
* Great destruction of property and towns, by fire
* There was a tremendous slaughter
* Women and children included in the slaughter
* They fought on a plain, overlooked by a hill
* They fought during the day and rested at night
* Similar strategy is described
* They buried their dead in heaps and covered them
* Attributed their destruction to the judgment of God

Now just throw a visitation of Jesus into the mix and what do you have? The Book of Mormon..

Source: http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/SCIOTA/Bown01a.htm
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#6

Post by Sargon » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:02 am

I am not prepared to present a strong case against your parallels. I have however read both documents, and I find that the stories and styles within both documents are very, very different.
One question Gman, I am a bit confused about your position. I wonder if you could clarify one thing for me.

1) You have argued adamantly that Manuscript Story and The Book of Mormon have many parallels, which in your opinion suggest that they have the same author.

2) When objections arise about the substance of these parallels, as you have written:
Objection 4. Finally, comparisons of The Book of Mormon to an earlier Solomon Spalding work called Manuscript Story-Conneaut Creek, a copy of which was recovered in 1833 from an old trunk in Hartwick, New York, show no similarities whatsoever between the two works.
The response has been that another novel was written by Spalding, Manuscript Found, which is the real source for the Book of Mormon:
Counter - A considerable body of evidence exists indicating that Solomon Spalding wrote a second novel entitled A Manuscript Found, which disappeared prior to 1833.
I understand that the theory goes that the Manuscript Found is an edited and much updated version of the earlier Manuscript Story, and that M.F. , were it to ever be found, would prove to be extremely similar to the Book of Mormon, much more so than the M.S., including names and other major details.
Are the parallels between The Book of Mormon and Manuscript Story so weak that another(and as of yet non-existent) text must be considered as the real original source?? If so, what value is there in listing the so called "parallels"?


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#7

Post by Gman » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:57 pm

Sargon wrote:I am not prepared to present a strong case against your parallels. I have however read both documents, and I find that the stories and styles within both documents are very, very different.
How are they different?
Sargon wrote:One question Gman, I am a bit confused about your position. I wonder if you could clarify one thing for me.

1) You have argued adamantly that Manuscript Story and The Book of Mormon have many parallels, which in your opinion suggest that they have the same author.

2) When objections arise about the substance of these parallels, as you have written:

I understand that the theory goes that the Manuscript Found is an edited and much updated version of the earlier Manuscript Story, and that M.F. , were it to ever be found, would prove to be extremely similar to the Book of Mormon, much more so than the M.S., including names and other major details.
It can be confusing because many Mormon apologists say that Manuscript Story and Manuscript Found are one and the same... However in Manuscript Found it contained the words 'Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, and Laminites just like the BoM...
Sargon wrote:Are the parallels between The Book of Mormon and Manuscript Story so weak that another(and as of yet non-existent) text must be considered as the real original source??
Sargon... Have you really looked at the parallels above or are you just reading what others say?

Perhaps the only differences between the BoM and Manuscript Story is that the battles are longer and bloodier in the BoM, but otherwise the basic elements of plot, sequence, and style are much the same, allowing that one author produced both works.

Consider the following:

1. In the beginning both books depend upon the discovery of an ancient record, and the discoverer's ability to translate that record that provides the basis for what follows.

2. Each record was uncovered in essentially the same way, was originally written for the same purpose.

3. They tell the story of the same ancient American inhabitants.

4. Includes an ocean voyage during which the travelers are blown off course by a storm.

5. Makes clear distinctions between light and dark skinned races.

6. Includes account of remarkably similar arts and sciences.

7. Is based upon a comparable Christian or Jewish system of values.

8. Makes mention of a strange White God.

9. Involves the use of magical "seer stones" reminiscent of Joseph Smith's well known "peep-stone."

10. Provides details of a final war of extermination fought between two nations that had once been brothers, the final battle of which, in both cases, takes place upon a hill.

How much more evidence do you need? What are the changes of this happening?
Sargon wrote:If so, what value is there in listing the so called "parallels"?
Good grief Sargon... Manuscript Found was derived from Manuscript Story.. The plot is still the same in both manuscripts... These same parallels exist in the BoM as well... I don't know how to make this any clearer...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#8

Post by Sargon » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:51 am

Gman,
I find your most recent list of parallels weak, but interesting. I have read most of the others that you had listed in a previous post. As I said before, parallels exist no doubt, but in my opinion they are not as strong as you suggest.
However my intent is not to debate that issue at this time. I am only trying to clarify a few things.
It can be confusing because many Mormon apologists say that Manuscript Story and Manuscript Found are one and the same... However in Manuscript Found it contained the words 'Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, and Laminites just like the BoM...
From what I recall, the only foundation for this argument are the statements of a few acquaintances of Spalding given many years after the publication of the Book of Mormon. I do not intend to dispute the claims now, because I am not well read on the subject. But I know that Manuscript Story has not been recovered, and thus you are able to claim anything you want about it's contents. Such as this:
Perhaps the only differences between the BoM and Manuscript Story is that the battles are longer and bloodier in the BoM, but otherwise the basic elements of plot, sequence, and style are much the same, allowing that one author produced both works.

How can you possibly know that? Are you relying on the statements I mentioned before for this information??
Manuscript Found was derived from Manuscript Story.. The plot is still the same in both manuscripts... These same parallels exist in the BoM as well... I don't know how to make this any clearer...
My original intent was to address this topic. Thank you for clarifying your reasoning for me. Is this an accurate representation of events as you believe them to be??

A) Manuscript Story(1) was written by Spalding
B) Manuscript Found(2) was written by Spalding as an edited version of Manuscript Story(1)
C) The Book of Mormon was plagiarized by someone from Manuscript Found(2)
D) Manuscript Story(1) was recovered in a trunk in Hawaii
F) Manuscript Found(2) has not yet been recovered, and is thought to contain even more parallels to the Book of Mormon then Manuscript Story(1)

Does this correctly represent your position??

Sargon
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#9

Post by Gman » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:23 pm

Sargon wrote:Gman,
I find your most recent list of parallels weak, but interesting.
Sargon... Those parallels to the BoM are WAY to close to pass it off as being merely coincidental....
Sargon wrote:I have read most of the others that you had listed in a previous post. As I said before, parallels exist no doubt, but in my opinion they are not as strong as you suggest.
Manuscript Story by itself is strong enough to sink the BoM's ship.. Again please read the parallels again: http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/SCIOTA/Bown01a.htm
Sargon wrote:From what I recall, the only foundation for this argument are the statements of a few acquaintances of Spalding given many years after the publication of the Book of Mormon. I do not intend to dispute the claims now, because I am not well read on the subject. But I know that Manuscript Story has not been recovered, and thus you are able to claim anything you want about it's contents.
No... Manuscript Story has already been found.. What Mormon apologists have been doing is saying that Manuscript Story and Manuscript Found are one of the same stories...

Here is "Manuscript Story" on-line: http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/rlds1885.htm (Notice it is called Manuscript Found here by the LDS church.)
Gman wrote:Perhaps the only differences between the BoM and Manuscript Story is that the battles are longer and bloodier in the BoM, but otherwise the basic elements of plot, sequence, and style are much the same, allowing that one author produced both works.
Sargon wrote:How can you possibly know that? Are you relying on the statements I mentioned before for this information??
How can I possibly know that? Sargon.. Again are you really reading the parallels above? The plot of Manuscript Story is practically IDENTICAL to the BoM..
Sargon wrote:My original intent was to address this topic. Thank you for clarifying your reasoning for me. Is this an accurate representation of events as you believe them to be??

A) Manuscript Story(1) was written by Spalding
B) Manuscript Found(2) was written by Spalding as an edited version of Manuscript Story(1)
C) The Book of Mormon was plagiarized by someone from Manuscript Found(2)
D) Manuscript Story(1) was recovered in a trunk in Hawaii
F) Manuscript Found(2) has not yet been recovered, and is thought to contain even more parallels to the Book of Mormon then Manuscript Story(1)

Does this correctly represent your position??

Sargon
More or less yes... The book "Who really wrote the BoM" goes into great detail to show that there where two books by Spalding (plus others related to these).. One was called "Manuscript Story" (the first one) and the other was "Manuscript Found" (the second and greater story of the first).

Basically Manuscript Story was never finished. It progresses up to the point of a final war, devotes about 40 pages to a description of that war, and then ends abruptly in the middle of a page just as the two opposing armies appear ready to begin the final battle..

Manuscript Found has never been found (yet)... However, there were numerous sources back then that claim that Spalding produced this novel after he produced his book or script to it called "Manuscript Story."

In Manuscript Found, the story is even closer to the BoM.. As an example, instead of Romans traveling over the Atlantic ocean to America (in M.S.) it was actually one of the lost tribes of Israel sailing out of Jerusalem... After they arrived in America disputes arose between the chiefs, which caused them to separate into different bands, one of which was called Lamanites, and the other Nephites. In Manuscript Story they were called "Ohons" or "Ohians," and "Sciotans" or "Kentucks." Between these tribes were tremendous battles, which frequently covered the ground with the slain... Just like the BoM...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#10

Post by Sargon » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:12 am

Ok, I think we have cleared up the confusion.
Manuscript Story by itself is strong enough to sink the BoM's ship..
Yet it hasn't.
No... Manuscript Story has already been found.. What Mormon apologists have been doing is saying that Manuscript Story and Manuscript Found are one of the same stories...
I was under the impression that most Mormon Apologists denied the very existence of a second story.
The plot of Manuscript Story is practically IDENTICAL to the BoM..
Having read both work, I deny this statement as an outright lie. They share some similarities, but the plots cannot be said to be practically identical. The Book of Mormon does not have one particular plot, it is not about one major war, initiated by a love scandal, as Spalding's story is. We could get into particulars, but whats the point?? We will never agree.
Manuscript Found has never been found (yet)... However, there were numerous sources back then that claim that Spalding produced this novel after he produced his book or script to it called "Manuscript Story."

Ok, then let me correct an earlier statement I made. Critics can claim whatever they want to about the contents of Manuscript Found, because it is not known to currently exist. Is it true that all the testimonies given in support of this theory were given after the publication of the Book of Mormon?


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#11

Post by Gman » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:26 pm

Sargon wrote:Ok, I think we have cleared up the confusion.
No problem..
Last edited by Gman on Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#12

Post by Gman » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:27 pm

Sargon wrote:
Manuscript Story by itself is strong enough to sink the BoM's ship..
Yet it hasn't.
No it has... People just need to read it.. And now with the internet more facts about the BoM will be revealed..
Sargon wrote:I was under the impression that most Mormon Apologists denied the very existence of a second story.
They do... Mormon apologists deny the very existence of a second story by Spalding.. That is why they are labeling Manuscript Story Manuscript Found..
Sargon wrote:
The plot of Manuscript Story is practically IDENTICAL to the BoM..
Having read both work, I deny this statement as an outright lie. They share some similarities, but the plots cannot be said to be practically identical.
Ok, but what don't you see similar in both plots or themes? I will admit one thing I see... The seer stones in Manuscript Story were not used to translate the Indian records.. However, they were still used to locate buried treasures and view things present... Other than that, they both mention people coming overseas to America.. They tell the story of the same ancient American inhabitants... They make clear distinctions between light and dark skinned races.... They are based upon a comparable Christian or Jewish system of values.... They provide details of a final war of extermination fought between two nations that had once been brothers, the final battle of which, in both cases, takes place upon a hill.... etc...
Sargon wrote:The Book of Mormon does not have one particular plot, it is not about one major war, initiated by a love scandal, as Spalding's story is.
What?? No major war? By the end of the Bom, the Lamanites later ended up destroying the Nephites, except for Moroni, son of the prophet Mormon. You don't think there was a major war in the BoM that destroyed the Nephites?
Sargon wrote:We could get into particulars, but whats the point?? We will never agree.
We probably would never agree because Mormon apologists AUTOMATICALLY think the Spalding manuscripts are spoofed and void... All you have to do is read the accounts... That's it... The evidence speaks for itself..
Sargon wrote:Ok, then let me correct an earlier statement I made. Critics can claim whatever they want to about the contents of Manuscript Found, because it is not known to currently exist. Is it true that all the testimonies given in support of this theory were given after the publication of the Book of Mormon?
Most of the testimonies I have read are given after the publication of the Book of Mormon.. But you have to remember, it was never published because Spalding died before it ever could get published.. However, a number of people did read it before he died.. Which caused an uproar at that time because they recognized the storyline and it's characters completely..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#13

Post by Sargon » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:19 am

No it has... People just need to read it.. And now with the internet more facts about the BoM will be revealed..
Stop acting like the internet is this brand new thing and that from now on The Book of Mormon is doomed. This very topic has been debated for years, and the internet has been the medium for a while now. No new clever attack has reared it's head since the internet became a popular medium of debate.
Ok, but what don't you see similar in both plots or themes?
Yes I do, but not the way you do. I see massive differences within your alleged parallels.
The seer stones in Manuscript Story were not used to translate the Indian records.. However, they were still used to locate buried treasures and view things present...
The seerstones in the Book of Mormon were not used for either of those two things. They were used only for translating unknown languages. Nothing else.
Other than that, they both mention people coming overseas to America..
For vastly different reasons. One was a complete accident. One was following the commandments of God. The themes are very different.
They tell the story of the same ancient American inhabitants...
How can you claim to know that? Spalding's story uses names like Kentucks, so it is clear what area the people lived in. The Book of Mormon is entirely unclear about where the events are taking place, until examined for that very purpose alone.
They make clear distinctions between light and dark skinned races....
Yes they do, a fact which is historically accurate.
They are based upon a comparable Christian or Jewish system of values...
I haven't read Manuscript Story to the very end, but I have read most of it. So far I have seen on reference to Jesus Christ, and one single chapter dedicated to religion, which did not resemble Judaism nor Christianity.
They provide details of a final war of extermination fought between two nations that had once been brothers
The nations in Manuscript Story were not brothers. They were neighbors. They did not originate from the same family. The Nephites and Lamanites were brothers.
the final battle of which, in both cases, takes place upon a hill.... etc...
The only real battle in Manuscript Story is on a hill. The Book of Mormon describes several wars, and many battles, throughout thousands of years, and they occur on many different geological features, and in many different places. The final battle is centered around a hill, but is not restricted to that place only. The Lamanites hunt the Nephites from city to city.

So yes, there are similarities, but they are not as exact as you suggest. In historical works similarities will arise. And because those similarities exist is not reason to suspect plagiarism.
We probably would never agree because Mormon apologists AUTOMATICALLY think the Spalding manuscripts are spoofed and void... All you have to do is read the accounts... That's it... The evidence speaks for itself..
Yes, the evidence that didn't exist until many years after the Book of Mormon was published.

Sargon
Let us not confuse what science reveals, with what we interpret science to reveal, and what we want science to reveal.

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#14

Post by Gman » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:54 am

Sargon wrote:Stop acting like the internet is this brand new thing and that from now on The Book of Mormon is doomed. This very topic has been debated for years, and the internet has been the medium for a while now. No new clever attack has reared it's head since the internet became a popular medium of debate.
Stop acting like the BoM doesn't have any serious problems because it does.. You think you are blowing a trumpet, but on this side of things it sounds like a little plastic kazoo... I also know that many Mormon elders in the past thwarted any attempts of their members to seek the truth or listen to opposing views.. The internet will change this... And the chapel Mormons will soon find this out...
Sargon wrote:Yes I do, but not the way you do. I see massive differences within your alleged parallels.
All you have to do is read it to see the massive similarities...

Source: http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/SCIOTA/Bown01a.htm
Sargon wrote:The seerstones in the Book of Mormon were not used for either of those two things. They were used only for translating unknown languages. Nothing else.
Incorrect... The seer stones were also used for treasure hunting...

According to A. W. Benton in 1831, Joseph Smith:

"…was about the country in the character of a glass-looker: pretending, by means of a certain stone, or glass, which he put in a hat, to be able to discover lost goods, hidden treasures, mines of gold and silver, &c.... At length the public,... had him arrested as a disorderly person, tried and condemned before a court of Justice." (Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate, April 9, 1831, p. 120)

Source: http://trialsofascension.net/mormon/treasure.html
Sargon wrote:For vastly different reasons. One was a complete accident.
No way.. Both of them had accidents in their travels.. Just click the links...

* A great storm arose
* The voyagers became frightened, and were lost
* They prayed to God for the storm to cease
* Then the storm ceased

Plus many more similarities...

* Both records include an account of the departure of a small party from the Old World.
* The people crossed the ocean in a sailing vessel
* They sailed further several days and then landed
* They landed on the American Continent
Sargon wrote:One was following the commandments of God.The themes are very different.
The themes are very different because one is following the commandments of God?? Is that all you have? That is hardly a difference... Tell me Sargon, you said earlier before that there were many books that have the same similarities to the BoM.. Tell me, what other books (before or after the BoM) that have the same storyline??
Gman wrote:They tell the story of the same ancient American inhabitants...
Sargon wrote:How can you claim to know that? Spalding's story uses names like Kentucks, so it is clear what area the people lived in. The Book of Mormon is entirely unclear about where the events are taking place, until examined for that very purpose alone.
How can I claim I know that? Sargon, again are you really looking at the parallels? The BoM has ALWAYS claimed that the people lived in Americas... Or are you saying now that the BoM's events took place in China??

* They landed on the American Continent
* There were many rivers and lakes in the land
* There were many tribes or races of people
* The people built cities
* Built along the seashore and bodies of water
* Some modern building methods were used
* Some of the people built houses of wood
* Others lived in tents
* They fortified their cities and borders
* These fortifications were similar to each other
* The people were governed by kings
* They had a system of taxation
* The people were agricultural
* Corn and wheat were raised
Gman wrote:They make clear distinctions between light and dark skinned races....
Sargon wrote:Yes they do, a fact which is historically accurate.
Historically accurate? Are you claiming that there really were light and dark skinned races in the Americas?? Where is your proof? Did you find some skin samples somewhere?
Sargon wrote:I haven't read Manuscript Story to the very end, but I have read most of it. So far I have seen on reference to Jesus Christ, and one single chapter dedicated to religion, which did not resemble Judaism nor Christianity.
Again please review the religious parallels... Why do I have to constantly repeat myself??

From here we can clearly see how Joseph Smith made his connection with Spalding that these American Indians were actually Jewish.. Unless you know of another monotheistic religion that performed sacrifices for their sins and observed a sabbath day...

* They had priests and high priests
* They offered sacrifices
* Some of the people worshipped a great spirit
* The Lord speaks with a voice of thunder
* They believed in a good and an evil spiritual power
* The people believed that man had a soul
* They believed in prayer
* The people obtained inspiration from heaven
* They believed in a life after death
* Payment of tithing was demanded
* They observed a sabbath day
Sargon wrote:The nations in Manuscript Story were not brothers. They were neighbors. They did not originate from the same family. The Nephites and Lamanites were brothers.
Incorrect... Spalding's Ohians were a single race, divided into two nations: The Sciotans living north of the Ohio, and the Kentucks living to the south.
Sargon wrote:The only real battle in Manuscript Story is on a hill. The Book of Mormon describes several wars, and many battles, throughout thousands of years, and they occur on many different geological features, and in many different places. The final battle is centered around a hill, but is not restricted to that place only. The Lamanites hunt the Nephites from city to city.
Incorrect.. There were other wars in Manuscript Story in various places before the great and final war...

* There were wars between two factions
* The last war was to be one of extermination
Sargon wrote:So yes, there are similarities, but they are not as exact as you suggest. In historical works similarities will arise. And because those similarities exist is not reason to suspect plagiarism.
Sargon, I challenge you to find another book or manuscript that closely parallels the BoM.. Show me another book where you will find such similarities as the following..

1. In the beginning both books depend upon the discovery of an ancient record on top of a hill, and the discoverer's ability to translate that record that provides the basis for what follows.

2. Each record was uncovered in essentially the same way, was originally written for the same purpose.

3. They tell the story of the same ancient American inhabitants.

4. Includes an ocean voyage during which the travelers are blown off course by a storm.

5. Makes clear distinctions between light and dark skinned races.

6. Includes account of remarkably similar arts and sciences.

7. Is based upon a comparable Christian or Jewish system of values.

8. Makes mention of a single God.

9. Involves the use of magical "seer stones" reminiscent of Joseph Smith's well known "peep-stone."

10. Provides details of a final war of extermination fought between two nations that had once been brothers, the final battle of which, in both cases, takes place upon a hill.
Sargon wrote:Yes, the evidence that didn't exist until many years after the Book of Mormon was published.
Baloney...

Gman..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#15

Post by Sargon » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:53 pm

Gman,

It is no use for me to continue debating this issue with you. We simply will not agree. You are not familiar enough with the BoM to understand how different it is from MS/MF. The parallels you cite are interesting, but don't hold that much weight beyond that. They are not as impressive as you would like to think, and though I have tried to point that out for only a few of them, you simply did not understand. I can't make you see if you don't want to.
I could explain why many of the other parallels simply fail the test, but I really don't think it will do any good. Your challenge would be quite a challenge if indeed the parallels you suggest existed between the BoM and the MS, but they do not.
Others have successfully argued that the Spalding Theory is a weak house of cards, fully dependent on a few important details that simply do not have impressive evidence to support them. I do not own the book you are depending so heavily on, and I will no longer attempt to rebut it. Others who are much more informed on the issue have already done that, and they aren't all LDS.
So go ahead and continue this charade if you must. I will not participate.

Oh yeah, one more thing. The title of the thread is not descriptive of what you are actually preaching. According to your theory, Spalding did not debunk the Book of Mormon. Spalding didn't even know about the Book of Mormon. You might more accurately label it "Mormonism debunked by angry excommunicated immoral former mormon Philastus Hurlburt seeking to tarnish Joseph Smith's name by digging up "evidence" against him".


Sargon
Let us not confuse what science reveals, with what we interpret science to reveal, and what we want science to reveal.

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