No Sargon, read what I wrote before... I stated that the handwritten copy of the Zelph story by Joseph Smith does in fact contain the words "Hill Cumorah." Also the quote was from the "History of the Church" 2:79-80; June 3, 1834. This is from the Mormon archives..Sargon wrote: I asked you for references. You did not give them. Either you forgot, or you intentionally did not provide them because deep down inside you aren't really that you know all that much about this story. From everything I have read, Joseph Smith never left an account of what happened.
By suggesting that someone else wrote the account you provided pretending to be Joseph Smith, I am not at all suggesting that it was an evil imposter. Actually, that was a common method used back then by supporters of the cause. If you are able to provide proof that Joseph Smith left that account, I will retract my doubt. I provided you with the closest thing written in Joseph's hand on the subject, a letter to his wife that doesn't even mention Zelph.
Because you did not provide the reference, I searched it out myself. It is the account presented in an old church history book:
And you should also pay attention to what you read... According to Joseph, Zelph was killed in battle by a Lamanite arrow found among his ribs during the last great struggle between the Lamanites and Nephites. (History of the Church, 2:79-80; June 3, 1834). Have you read in the BoM where the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites occurred? According to the BoM it was on the hill Cumorah. Please read Mormon chapter 6, 1-22 about the last great Lamanite and Nephite battle..Sargon wrote:Zelph was found in Illinois. If you doubt it, do some simple research. Im not making this stuff up. Go ahead, ask for references, I will give them. The account you quoted does mention the Hill Cumorah, but it does not say he was found in the Hill Cumorah. Pay attention to what you read.
But yes there also seems to be reference of Zelph being found in Illinois too.. Regardless if he was killed on the hill Cumorah or in Illinois it was still in N. America.. Sorry..
No Sargon... It is against the Meso-America theory... He was killed in a battle by a Lamanite arrow found among his ribs during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites... Are you telling me that he died in Meso-America in the battle there and his ancestors traveled 1,800 miles away and buried his remains in Illinois??Sargon wrote:Because Zelph was found in N. America, is not evidence at all against the Meso-America theory.
So he migrated north to N. America and was killed on the Hill Cumorah in New York then... Also do you realize that Onandaga is the name of a county in New York state as well as the name of a tribe of the Iroquois Confederacy that once occupied the area of NY?Sargon wrote:In all the accounts of the Zelph story, it mentions his leader, the great prophet Onandagus. Well this "great" prophet is not mentioned at all in the Book of Mormon. Zelph was not a contemporary of the people in the Book of Mormon. He came long afterwards. They had plenty of time to migrate north, and in fact, the Book of Mormon mentions large groups of people migrating north never to be heard of again.
And you have completely failed to understand what I meant too... Because the word "Lamanite" exists only in one place in the entire world.. Only in the BoM..Sargon wrote:You completely failed to understand what I meant. "Those days" that I bolded above, are referring the days of Joseph Smith, not ancient days. Zelph could have never even heard the word Lamanite in his life, yet Joseph Smith would have still called him a Lamanite, being a descendant of them, or having some cultural or religious connection to them.
Also, the linguistics issue of Meso-America is not something we should attempt to dive into in this thread, but it will suffice to say that we know extremely little about ancient meso-america languages and dialects.
Yes it's clear now.. He died in a huge battle to the eastern sea of the Rocky mountains in the United States of America.. The only problem is there is no archaeological evidence to prove it..Sargon wrote:I think that about sums up the Zelph non-issue.
Again here are some more common elements in the two accounts..Sargon wrote:I am reading it. I am about half way through it. You would think that after reading halfway through a carbon copy you would be able recognize it for what it is...yet it simply is not. The Spalding story bares such little resemblance to the Book of Mormon, that the church at one time published the story just so people could see for themselves.
Source: http://www.geocities.com/lds_research/s ... lding.html
Sargon he was never the Lord's prophet... He fabricated the whole story to gain wealth and develop an ego..Sargon wrote:However I will admit that for someone desperately trying to justify their rejection of the Lord's prophet, it often is used as the biggest straw they are grasping.
Almost as laughable as the BoM... Correct.. And it came to pass.. Yea..Sargon wrote:I don't think much else needs to be said other than "So?". The "carbon copy" you claim bares such little resemblance that your story is really quite laughable.
Sargon.. You haven't read the Spalding manuscript then.. Here is another source to help you see the parallels.. This is highly damaging to the BoM..Sargon wrote:The Book of Mormon and the Spalding Story are both stories about ancient americans who had battles. The similarities stop there. When battles are fought, people die. When lots of peope die, they are buried. So what? Everyone knows that. Does that mean that Joseph Smith copied from Solomon Spalding?? Not anymore than he copied from Homer.
Fortigurn has already addressed these "so called" gold plates with you.. Please pay more attention to him on this matter..Sargon wrote:Gman, Joseph Smith did not copy from anything but the gold plates.
No Sargon.. These fortifications are practically in exact detail to one another.. There were large mounds of dirt built around the cities with logs on top them (protruding about the length of a human) to repel the intruders.. Both the Mormon and Spalding accounts are identical...Sargon wrote:So what if both Spalding and Smith mentioned timbers on their fortifications?? Does that mean they copied each other? Not at all! Spalding was a graduate of Dartmouth College. He certainly was smart enough to know that timbers could be used in a fort.
You might argue that Joseph took that little detail from Spalding, amongst thousands of others he didn't use, but could have, and copied it into the Book of Mormon. This would be an interesting claim, if it had any support. But, sadly enough, it doesn't have much support. The only way you can even claim that Joseph had access to the unpublished and undistributed manuscript, is by rewriting history and introducing an astounding number of "maybe" 's.
Sargon, everyone knows that Wikipedia is not a trustworthy source for information.. Anyone can write to it.. Even you..Sargon wrote:Wikipedia disagrees that the Book of Mormon is a "carbon copy" of the Spalding manuscript.
Oh I've only touched a small portion of the book.. Wait till I start quoting from the book..Sargon wrote:I encourage you to return the book you bought, that way, maybe you can save the small sum you spent on it. It certainly is worth more than the material written in the book.