more mormon heresy

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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#46

Post by puritan lad » Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:05 pm

Gman wrote:Mormonism is actually an easier one to tackle.. It's the Asian religions that are a bit tougher because they are so convoluted..
Actually, the discovery of the current Big Bang Model has eliminated just about all Eastern religions from the realm of possibility. Eastern religions need either a Steady State Universe or an Oscillating Universe. Reality gives us neither. (There are other problems as well).

(I know it's not a Mormon Topic. If this point is expanded upon, it may be done in another thread).
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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#47

Post by oniichan » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:38 pm

Considering I am currently living in Utah, and have been since I was little, I have a fair bit of understanding when it comes to the LDS religion. I am not LDS but since everyone I live around is the knowledge rubs off.

My first question will be, if a religious book has no historical or archaeological evidence to back it up does that in itself leave enough of a whole in the religion to not believe it?
Example: In the book of mormon, out of all the ancient citys that were supposedly existing in the Americas why is it not one of them can be found. And its not just finding them, there are no traces of them. It says that they had a coin system yet there have been no coins found.

Without determining that these places actually existed can we except that these things happened?

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#48

Post by Gman » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:40 pm

Good question oniichan..

Also the Book of Mormon says there were horses, elephants, and cattle in the land at that time too. The only elephants I know of exist in zoos and cattle and horses were brought here by the europeans..

I thought this video explained it well..

The Bible vs. The Book of Mormon

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0702569026
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#49

Post by Angel Cake » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:03 am

He introduces people to doctrines, then invites them to ponder and pray about it. That is essentially it.
That is a problem I have with Mormons. The missionaries tell a person to pray about it and perhaps he/she will receive "a burning in the bosom" that what they are saying is true. The Bereans, however, checked the Scriptures to see if what Paul was saying held the truth (Acts 17:11). Should we not do the same? (By Scriptures, I mean the Holy Bible, not D&C, BOM, POGP, or any other Mormon "Scriptures.")

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#50

Post by Sargon » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:43 am

My first question will be, if a religious book has no historical or archaeological evidence to back it up does that in itself leave enough of a whole in the religion to not believe it?...Without determining that these places actually existed can we except that these things happened?
No! Not at all. But it certainly would cause many to understandibly wonder. We have no evidence of any place called "The Garden of Eden", yet we believe in it because it is in the bible. We have no scraps left over from Noah's ark, we dont have any idea where the ark of the covenant is, we dont know the locations of many of the OT and NT cities, yet we believe they existed. Religion is based on faith, not in-your-face proof, though understandibly proof does help.
Example: In the book of mormon, out of all the ancient citys that were supposedly existing in the Americas why is it not one of them can be found. And its not just finding them, there are no traces of them.
A legitimate question that has been asked by many LDS-critics over the past 176 years. Before adressing the question, I would like to remind you that only 55% of all the place names in the Bible have been identified, and the Bible is the most closely scrutinized book in the world!! For example, there are over 20 candidates for Mt. Sanai, we dont know the route taken by the Israelites leaving Egypt. I quote from an article:
In the final analysis the most certain identifications [of biblical place names] are still those dependent upon preservation of the ancient name, albeit with careful examination of written sources and archaeological data. Out of the approximately 475 place names mentioned in the Bible only about 262 have been identified with any degree of certainty, i.e., 55 per cent. Of these 190 are based upon preservation of the name, viz. 40 per cent of the over-all total. . . . Only 72 places (15 per cent of the over-all total) have been identified in situations where the ancient name is not to be found somewhere in the vicinity, of which only about half carry a degree of certainty, the remainder being more or less conjectural.
In this response I am making no attempt to discredit the bible. Just because I dont know where Mt. Sanai is doesnt mean it didnt exist for Moses. The NT has been around for 2000 years, and the OT for much longer. It is the most widely read book, and extensive amounts of time, research, and money have gone into locating the place-names in the bible, with minimal success. They have had to rely on the writings of neighboring nations, such as the Egyptians and Mesopotamians, for information regarding the locations of many places in the bible.

In the case of the Book of Mormon, we have had very little time to study. The Book of Mormon has been around for a mere 177 years(one year before the creation of the church I think), and for most of that time very little was known about the Mesoamerican cultures. In fact, at the time the BoM was written the very thought that those "beastly savages" had the capacity to build cities was blasphemous!! Yet we find hundreds of ancient cities, evidences for complex societies, and the more we learn the more we discover that the BoM actually painted an accurate picture of those civilizations. We barely are able to tranlsate their writings, and their is only one culuture, the mayans, that developed a writing system that fully communicated their spoken tongue, the rest were basically hieroglyphic based. The language written and the language spoken were different. So even if we find a symbol representing a city, we still dont know how they called it in their spoken language. There is much evidence for the ancient BoM cities, you just have to look for it.

An interesting example is a situation in Oman. In the first book in the BoM, 1st Nephi, we read of a place where the traveling family stops for a season called Nahom. Well this Nahom has been identified in Oman, right along the path that Nephi described his family to have taken. Google it you can find alot more.
It says that they had a coin system yet there have been no coins found.
Actually, it does not say that they had a coin system. What it does describe though, is a system similar to the egyptians where pieces of metal were valued according to their weight. The word coin does not appear in the Book of Mormon text.
Also the Book of Mormon says there were horses, elephants, and cattle in the land at that time too. The only elephants I know of exist in zoos and cattle and horses were brought here by the europeans..
Actually, there is much evidence that this was not a mistake at all. Elephant and horse remains have been found in the Americas that date back to the time of the Book of Mormon peoples. As for cattle, it is a very common practice to label an unknown animal with a more familiar name.
it is likely that these Book of Mormon terms are the product of reassigning familiar labels to unfamiliar items...The Miami Indians, for example, were unfamiliar with the buffalo and simply called them “wild cows.” Likewise the “explorer DeSoto called the buffalo simply vaca, cow. The Delaware Indians named the cow after the deer, and the Miami tribe labeled sheep, when they first saw them, 'looks-like-a-cow'” [8]
More can found here:
http://www.fairwiki.org/index.php/Book_ ... ms:Animals

While we recognize that this evidence is not proof of the BoM, we do recognize that it is evidence that these accusations brought against the BoM can no longer stand the tests of modern science.
The missionaries tell a person to pray about it and perhaps he/she will receive "a burning in the bosom" that what they are saying is true. The Bereans, however, checked the Scriptures to see if what Paul was saying held the truth (Acts 17:11). Should we not do the same?
Of course you should do the same! The burning in the bosom is a testimony of the Holy Spirit that the gospel is true, and one of the prerequisites for receiving this testimony is to search the scriptures, and to study them. At the end of the Book of Mormon we find these words:
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
One thing that those who are quick to point out the apparent inconsistency with the BoM teaching and the example of the Bereans is that the Bereans are said to have received the word with "all readiness of mind":
Act 17:10 ¶ And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The Bereans prepared themselves by wanting to find the truth in the scriptures. They had sincerity, real intent, and faith in Christ. Were it not so they would have ended up just like the Pharisees, who also searched the scriptures daily yet were not able to understand what they meant. Real intent and faith in Christ are required in order to be persuaded by scripture.

The very apostle who taught the folks in Berea, Paul, was himself a former pharisee. As a pharisee he knew the scriptures well, yet he was unable to understand that they were teaching of Christ all along. Merely searching the scriptures obviously was not enought to persuade him, because we know that it took a heavenly manifestation to persuade him that Christ was the Lord, not an intense bible study session. It is the holy spirit that guides to truth, the scriptures help us to develop that faith which is required to believe, belief that allows us to recognize the voice of the Holy Spirit.

Im sure you will have much to say. I apologize if I cant participate extensively, as I have a busy schedule. But I will check in and do my best.
I would ask that we choose only one topic to debate at a time, because I have found that is the best way to not skip over any details. Thank You.

Sargon

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#51

Post by FFC » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:50 pm

Sargon,
Is it true that mormons believe that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers?
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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#52

Post by Gman » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:09 pm

Sargon wrote:No! Not at all. But it certainly would cause many to understandibly wonder. We have no evidence of any place called "The Garden of Eden", yet we believe in it because it is in the bible. We have no scraps left over from Noah's ark, we dont have any idea where the ark of the covenant is, we dont know the locations of many of the OT and NT cities, yet we believe they existed. Religion is based on faith, not in-your-face proof, though understandibly proof does help.
Sargon, I'm sorry, but using the Garden of Eden or Noah's ark as examples of no evidence is not good in my view. The Garden of Eden has many surviving non-Biblical sources from the Sumerians. As for Noah's ark there are many other non-Biblical sources. Josephus the historian is one example who claims that people were actually taking away pieces of it back to their villages (Chap. 3 v6). Another on-Biblical source would be the Epic of Gilgamesh which practically mimics the Biblical account word for word.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs200 ... gamesh.asp
A legitimate question that has been asked by many LDS-critics over the past 176 years. Before adressing the question, I would like to remind you that only 55% of all the place names in the Bible have been identified, and the Bible is the most closely scrutinized book in the world!! For example, there are over 20 candidates for Mt. Sanai, we dont know the route taken by the Israelites leaving Egypt. I quote from an article:
In the final analysis the most certain identifications [of biblical place names] are still those dependent upon preservation of the ancient name, albeit with careful examination of written sources and archaeological data. Out of the approximately 475 place names mentioned in the Bible only about 262 have been identified with any degree of certainty, i.e., 55 per cent. Of these 190 are based upon preservation of the name, viz. 40 per cent of the over-all total. . . . Only 72 places (15 per cent of the over-all total) have been identified in situations where the ancient name is not to be found somewhere in the vicinity, of which only about half carry a degree of certainty, the remainder being more or less conjectural.
I believe it is much higher than you propose. You are not mentioning the non-Biblical sources as well?... But anyway I would take 55% over 0% anyday..
In this response I am making no attempt to discredit the bible. Just because I dont know where Mt. Sanai is doesnt mean it didnt exist for Moses. The NT has been around for 2000 years, and the OT for much longer. It is the most widely read book, and extensive amounts of time, research, and money have gone into locating the place-names in the bible, with minimal success. They have had to rely on the writings of neighboring nations, such as the Egyptians and Mesopotamians, for information regarding the locations of many places in the bible.
Not true... Try going to the Temple Mount sometime in Jerusalem. Also, many towns have been identified through archeology in and around Israel.
In the case of the Book of Mormon, we have had very little time to study. The Book of Mormon has been around for a mere 177 years(one year before the creation of the church I think), and for most of that time very little was known about the Mesoamerican cultures. In fact, at the time the BoM was written the very thought that those "beastly savages" had the capacity to build cities was blasphemous!! Yet we find hundreds of ancient cities, evidences for complex societies, and the more we learn the more we discover that the BoM actually painted an accurate picture of those civilizations. We barely are able to tranlsate their writings, and their is only one culuture, the mayans, that developed a writing system that fully communicated their spoken tongue, the rest were basically hieroglyphic based. The language written and the language spoken were different. So even if we find a symbol representing a city, we still dont know how they called it in their spoken language. There is much evidence for the ancient BoM cities, you just have to look for it.
That is in central America... Not Northern America where the book of Mormon said that many of these huge cities existed. Also in the battle in the hill of Cumorah in the state of New York there was said to be 230 thousand people killed. Where is the evidence for this outside of the book of Mormon?
An interesting example is a situation in Oman. In the first book in the BoM, 1st Nephi, we read of a place where the traveling family stops for a season called Nahom. Well this Nahom has been identified in Oman, right along the path that Nephi described his family to have taken. Google it you can find alot more.
I don't see the connection.. Also, the American Indians here were not Jewish. Please check out this video source DNA vs The Book of Mormon.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... rmon&hl=en
Actually, there is much evidence that this was not a mistake at all. Elephant and horse remains have been found in the Americas that date back to the time of the Book of Mormon peoples. As for cattle, it is a very common practice to label an unknown animal with a more familiar name.
Yes, Mormons believe the elephants were the mammoths, not the actual elephants we see today. As for cattle and horses, you find remains of them here today because the Europeans brought them over. They were never native to this land here. Any real scientist would back up this claim. I'm sorry...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#53

Post by Gman » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:33 pm

Sargon wrote:Of course you should do the same! The burning in the bosom is a testimony of the Holy Spirit that the gospel is true, and one of the prerequisites for receiving this testimony is to search the scriptures, and to study them. At the end of the Book of Mormon we find these words:
One thing that those who are quick to point out the apparent inconsistency with the BoM teaching and the example of the Bereans is that the Bereans are said to have received the word with "all readiness of mind":
Act 17:10 ¶ And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
The Bereans prepared themselves by wanting to find the truth in the scriptures. They had sincerity, real intent, and faith in Christ. Were it not so they would have ended up just like the Pharisees, who also searched the scriptures daily yet were not able to understand what they meant. Real intent and faith in Christ are required in order to be persuaded by scripture.
The very apostle who taught the folks in Berea, Paul, was himself a former pharisee. As a pharisee he knew the scriptures well, yet he was unable to understand that they were teaching of Christ all along. Merely searching the scriptures obviously was not enought to persuade him, because we know that it took a heavenly manifestation to persuade him that Christ was the Lord, not an intense bible study session. It is the holy spirit that guides to truth, the scriptures help us to develop that faith which is required to believe, belief that allows us to recognize the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Quote from Ed Decker:
"This whole procedure (burning in the bosom) is utterly without scriptural foundation. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that we can trust our feelings with important issues like our eternal destiny. We cannot use the Book of Mormon or other LDS scriptures to prove the validity of the burning bosom, because that would be circular reasoning. You cannot logically or reasonably prove the Book of Mormon with a quote from the Book of Mormon or other Mormon books which depend upon the Book of Mormon for their authentication. We must depend on the Bible alone, which says nothing about trusting our feelings. To the contrary, the Bible warns that "there is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12). Additionally, in Jeremiah we read, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

There is no guarantee from the Bible (or even from our own experiences in life) that our feelings can be trusted. How many times have you felt sure that you were right about something, only to find out you were wrong? How often have people felt sure that someone really loved them, and then found out they were deceiving themselves without even knowing it? If we can be this easily deceived in human relationships, why trust our immortal souls on such emotional, unreliable methods?

The whole problem of impulse shopping is based on the premise that advertising and marketing can make someone feel as if they absolutely have to have something, even though they entered the store without any such notion. With all of this evidence to the contrary, why should anyone think that they can trust their heart when it comes to God and His truth? The human capacity for self-deception is enormous. Attend an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and find out how many people there used to say, "I don't have a problem with drinking," while they were falling down drunk.

We should not be praying about whether some man is truly a prophet of God; we should be testing him and his utterances to see if they meet biblical tests already given to us for that purpose. The Bible gives several objective tests for measuring spiritual truth and those who claim to be prophets."
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#54

Post by Sargon » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:14 pm

I would ask that we choose only one topic to debate at a time, because I have found that is the best way to not skip over any details. Thank You.
I have chosen to only adress the first subject that was responed to.


Sargon, I'm sorry, but using the Garden of Eden or Noah's ark as examples of no evidence is not good in my view. The Garden of Eden has many surviving non-Biblical sources from the Sumerians. As for Noah's ark there are many other non-Biblical sources. Josephus the historian is one example who claims that people were actually taking away pieces of it back to their villages (Chap. 3 v6). Another on-Biblical source would be the Epic of Gilgamesh which practically mimics the Biblical account word for word.
Actually, the stories in the book of Mormon have many non-biblical sources as well. I dont have time to go into them today, but there are lots. Ever heard of quetzalcoatl?
There are many Jewish traditions about things that the Book of Mormon talks about, that are not in the Bible. For example, that Joseph's coat survived for generations, and that Noah used glowing objects powered by God for light in the ark. I have a busy week so my participation will be limited.

Sargon

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#55

Post by FFC » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:44 pm

Noah used glowing objects powered by God for light in the ark
:? If God resided in the arK...wouldn't there be plenty of light in there already? Never mind...I just realized you're talking about noah's ark. :oops:
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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#56

Post by Gman » Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:19 pm

FFC wrote:
Noah used glowing objects powered by God for light in the ark
:? If God resided in the arK...wouldn't there be plenty of light in there already? Never mind...I just realized you're talking about noah's ark. :oops:
Noah had a fog light? What?
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#57

Post by ttoews » Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:50 pm

Sargon wrote:In the case of the Book of Mormon, we have had very little time to study. The Book of Mormon has been around for a mere 177 years(one year before the creation of the church I think), and for most of that time very little was known about the Mesoamerican cultures. In fact, at the time the BoM was written the very thought that those "beastly savages" had the capacity to build cities was blasphemous!!
Blasphemous? Are you sure? Are you telling me that the Spanish didn't report on the civilizations that they conquered...or that such reports, if they did exist weren't available? When the BoM was written was it contemplated (by JS and the others at the top) that the events described in the BoM occurred mainly in a small area of central america?....or was such blasphemous and was it accepted that much of what is described occurred in New England? Please provide some reference for your claim that the existence of cities was such a radical idea.
Yet we find hundreds of ancient cities, evidences for complex societies, and the more we learn the more we discover that the BoM actually painted an accurate picture of those civilizations.
accurate? Are you sure? Does the BoM detail the religions practised in the various mesoamerican civilizations? ...the way the temples are shaped and laid out?....the manner and seasons of the sacrifices? Please provide those accurate descriptions if you want to claim such exist.
An interesting example is a situation in Oman. In the first book in the BoM, 1st Nephi, we read of a place where the traveling family stops for a season called Nahom. Well this Nahom has been identified in Oman, right along the path that Nephi described his family to have taken. Google it you can find alot more.
Identified? Are you sure? It seems an inscription "NHM" was found and that the LDS assume that NHM is a variant of Nahom.... Please provide proof that we must (or even should) accept NHM as being Nahom.

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#58

Post by ttoews » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:15 pm

FFC wrote:Sargon,
Is it true that mormons believe that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers?
we are all brothers according to LDS doctrine....here is a bit of mormon teaching that might interest you: premortal existence

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#59

Post by Gman » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:28 pm

Sargon wrote:Ever heard of quetzalcoatl?


Yes I have.. Can you please explain the BoM connection? I'm confused..
ttoews wrote:Blasphemous? Are you sure? Are you telling me that the Spanish didn't report on the civilizations that they conquered...or that such reports, if they did exist weren't available? When the BoM was written was it contemplated (by JS and the others at the top) that the events described in the BoM occurred mainly in a small area of central america?....or was such blasphemous and was it accepted that much of what is described occurred in New England? Please provide some reference for your claim that the existence of cities was such a radical idea.
Darn, I must be blind.. Good point ttoews... Of course they did.. The Spanish conquest of Mexico refers to the conquest of the Mexica/Aztec Empire by Hernán Cortés from 1519-1521 well before the BoM..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Conquest_of_Mexico
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#60

Post by FFC » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:13 pm

ttoews wrote:
FFC wrote:Sargon,
Is it true that mormons believe that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers?
we are all brothers according to LDS doctrine....here is a bit of mormon teaching that might interest you: premortal existence
Thanks, ttoews, that was interesting...and a tad bizarre. :?
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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