Where We Go When We Die?

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#91

Post by RickD » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:45 pm

John, keep in mind, as far as the board guidelines are concerned, the belief that Jesus is God, Is considered a Christian belief.
And pay close attention to this:
5.If you vehemently disagree with Christian beliefs and constantly attack then know that you will be banned very quickly.
and this:
Any non-Christians who participate in discussions do so with an understanding moderators will be the judge of whether the line is crossed.
You are walking a very fine line with your other "jesus". And you're saying, "Jesus is not God".
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#92

Post by B. W. » Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:23 pm

Here is more on Luke 23:43

Here is the Greek Text of Luke 23:43:

και ειπεν αυτω αμην σοι λεγω σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

Notice the Greek word order translated in corresponding English:

"And said to him, "Certainly to you I say today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

There were no commas used in original Greek text and the word order is clear as it defines today as this very day (just as the Greek word translated day means) that this very repentant thief would be with Jesus.

You appear not to know the basic of Greek and are merely parroting you POV privet interpretation that ignores much of the bible.
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#93

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:22 am

Without punctuation, the statement in English is grammatically incorrect. But I find that there is punctuation in the translation you posted anyway. When Jesus died, he went to his grave, so is the grave Paradise? I believe that the rewards are given "at the last day" as Jesus clearly states. Matt. 16:27, 25:31-46 John 5:29, 6:39,40,44,54. I would also point out John 20:17 "I have not yet ascended" So if Jesus did not "ascend" I believe he did not "go to" heaven that day. I will stay with the early church fathers on this one. Irenaeus refuted the Gnostics that taught the heresy of going to heaven immediately after death. Justin Martyr also refuted the heretical Hellenistic/Platonic notion of the same ideology. The Orthodox at one point in time taught we did not go to heaven when we die, but somewhere along the line it changed. Now, it is the heretics that teach what the early church fathers taught.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#94

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:15 am

The issue is really one of WHAT a person thinks the spirit is.
The bible is clear that when we die, our spirit returns to God, ie: goes to heaven.
I don't think ANYONE will argue that.
What is in question is WHAT is the spirit and how much of us IS spirit.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#95

Post by Canuckster1127 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:47 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:If you think you are already immortal, you can hang out with Plato and his wonderful philosophical concept he had received from the Egyptians.
Ad Hominem. Please address issues and leave personal attacks alone.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#96

Post by B. W. » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:26 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Without punctuation, the statement in English is grammatically incorrect. But I find that there is punctuation in the translation you posted anyway. When Jesus died, he went to his grave, so is the grave Paradise? I believe that the rewards are given "at the last day" as Jesus clearly states. Matt. 16:27, 25:31-46 John 5:29, 6:39,40,44,54. I would also point out John 20:17 "I have not yet ascended" So if Jesus did not "ascend" I believe he did not "go to" heaven that day. I will stay with the early church fathers on this one. Irenaeus refuted the Gnostics that taught the heresy of going to heaven immediately after death. Justin Martyr also refuted the heretical Hellenistic/Platonic notion of the same ideology. The Orthodox at one point in time taught we did not go to heaven when we die, but somewhere along the line it changed. Now, it is the heretics that teach what the early church fathers taught.

It is not grammatically incorrect in Greek and that is what you do not understand.

You translate the Greek text from Greek into English and not from English into what you think the Greek text means as your POV does.

The Greek text is very-very specific - it was on the same day the event occurred - no and's if's or but's about it...

You wrongly assume that the word Paradise means heaven - it does not. You don't even know what Biblically based orthodox Christians believe on this matter at all, or the bible or what the bible actually says.

Paradise was located in Sheol. Sheol was divided into two parts as Luke 16:19-31 verifies as well as does the OT. Eph 4:9-10 also speaks of this. What you don’t realize is that Jesus First descended into the lower parts of the earth where Paradise is and that is where the repentant thief went.

As for Jesus not ascending you forgot Acts 1:9-11 and he lead captivity captive.

You simply are in complete error due to a faulty translation that the founders of THE WAY INTERNATIONAL created in error. You do not understand Greek basics and neither did the founders and your teachers. You are about the heretics - however - they are your scholars and leaders and founders who are not honest - you need to run from them - they teach that it is okay to break the first of the Ten Commandments...

You need the real Jesus - who does not teach it is okay to break the first of the Ten Commandments... You need Jesus Christ – the real Jesus…
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#97

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:59 am

We know that before Christ ascend to Heaven that he:
Preached to the spirits in prison ( the fallen ones)
Stayed on Earth until He ascended.
It MAY also be the He preached first and then "traveled" from heaven to earth until ascending for the last time.
The Jewish view of Sheol is a complex one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#98

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:02 pm

I think your starting to understand the orthodox POV that Irenaeus, Martyr, Tertullian, and also myself that we do not "go to" heaven when we die.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#99

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:05 pm

What has to be addressed is, quite simply this:
Acts 7:59
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"

Psalm 31:5 Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Again, one must come to grips that the spirit returns to God, what seems to be of issue is WHAT the spirit is.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#100

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:13 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:I think your starting to understand the orthodox POV that Irenaeus, Martyr, Tertullian, and also myself that we do not "go to" heaven when we die.
Justin Martyr?
According to Justin, near the beginning of his Apology, Justin wrote, "If death meant the end of all sensation, it would be a blessing to the wicked. However, SENSATION DOES NOT END WITH DEATH" (p.86;.

Further, "GEHENNA IS A PLACE OF PUNISHMENT for those who live wickedly and for those who do not believe these Fire things that God taught us through Christ. THE DEMONS CANNOT KEEP HIDDEN THE FACT that there will be a fire for the punishment of the wicked" (pp.86f;

Later, Justin states about the early Christians in general, "We say THE WICKED WILL BE PUNISHED in the same bodies they have now, after their bodies and spirits are re-united. Also, we say that THEIR PUNISHMENT WILL BE EVERLASTING, not merely for a thousand years, as Plato taught (p.108;

When discussing the return of Christ and the final resurrection, he declares, "He (Christ) will clothe the bodies of the worthy with immortality. He will send the bodies of the wicked, ENDOWED WITH ETERNAL SENSIBILITY, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE with the demons (p.125;

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#101

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:06 pm

Chapter 80

"Sir," said Trypho, "as I already remarked, you are very careful to keep close to the Scriptures in all your statements. But, tell me truthfully, do you really believe that this place Jerusalem will be rebuilt, and do you actually expect that you Christians will one day congregate there to live joyfully with Christ, together with the patriarchs, the prophets, the saints of our people and those who became proselytes before your Christ arrived? Or did you admit this only to win the argument ?"

[2] "Trypho," I replied, "I am not such a wretch as to say one thing and to think another. I have declared to you earlier, that I, with many others, feel that such an event will take place. However, I did point out that there are many pure and pious Christians who do not share our opinion. [3] Moreover, I also informed you that there are some who are Christians in name, but in reality are godless and impious heretics whose doctrines are entirely blasphemous, atheistic, and foolish. However, that you may be assured that I am not making this admission in your presence only, I promise to write up our whole debate in book form as well as I can, and in it I will insert the admission I just made to you, for I do not desire to be a follower of men and their teachings, but of God and His doctrines. [4] If you have ever encountered any so-called Christians who do not admit this doctrine [of the millennium], but dare to blaspheme the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob by asserting that there is no resurrection of the dead, but that their souls are taken up to Heaven at the very moment of their death, do not consider them to be real Christians; just as one, after careful examination, would not acknowledge as Jews the Sadducees or the similar sects of the Genistae, Meristae, Galileans, Hellenians, and the Baptist Pharisees (please take no offense if I speak my mind), but would realize that they are Jews and children of Abraham in name only, paying lip service to God, while their hearts (as God Himself declared) are far from Him. [5] But I and every other completely orthodox Christian feel certain that there will be a resurrection of the flesh, followed by a thousand years in the rebuilt, embellished, and enlarged city of Jerusalem, as was announced by the Prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and the others.

Let's take a note from Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Ch 80. If you have ever encountered any so-called Christians who do not admit this doctrine [of the millennium], but dare to blaspheme the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob by asserting that there is no resurrection of the dead, but that their souls are taken up to Heaven at the very moment of their death, do not consider them to be real Christians.
http://www.bombaxo.com/trypho.html

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#102

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:25 pm

True, but Justin never denied that the SPIRIT goes to heaven.
Justin was making a point against the gnostics and others that deny the resurrection of the body at the "end of days".

The issue is, like I stated before, the "mixing" of the soul and spirit.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#103

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:52 pm

Oh yes I do not deny "the spirit returns to God who gave it" but as for "it" being a conscious entity apart from the body I do. I am a holistic believer. Basically all or nothing.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#104

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:52 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Oh yes I do not deny "the spirit returns to God who gave it" but as for "it" being a conscious entity apart from the body I do. I am a holistic believer. Basically all or nothing.
Ah, I understand now.
SO to you, WHAT is the spirit?

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#105

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:25 am

"Ruach occurs 377 times in the Old Testament and most frequently is translated 'spirit,' 'wind,' or 'breath' (Gen. 8:1, etc.). It is also used to denote vitality (Judges 15:19), courage (Joshua 2:11), temper or anger (Judges 8:3), disposition (Isa. 54:6), moral character (Eze. 11:19), and the seat of the emotions (1 Sam. 1:15). "The New Testament equivalent of ruach is pneuma, 'spirit,' from pneo, 'to blow,' or 'to breathe.' As with ruach, there is nothing inherent in the word pneuma denoting an entity in man capable of conscious existence apart from the body, nor does New Testament usage with respect to man in any way imply such a concept. In such passages as Romans 8:15; 1 Corinthians 4:21; 2 Timothy 1:7; 1 John 4:6 pneuma denotes 'mood,' 'attitude,' or 'state of feeling.' It is also used of various aspects of the personality, as in Galatians 6:1; Romans 12:11; etc. As with ruach, the pneuma is yielded to the Lord at death (Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59). Like ruach, pneuma is also used of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:11, 14; Eph. 4:30; Heb. 2:4; 1 Peter 1:12; 2 Peter 1:21; etc.)." <---- I got this from the SDA "27 fundamental beliefs" BTW 27 is now 28 LOL

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