Where We Go When We Die?

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#61

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:35 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Hebrews 11 records all the people of faith listed died. Hebrews 11:5,13,32,39,40. I see "all these died" "did not receive the promise" and "not made perfect"
You do realize that the verse you posted says that Enouch did NOT see death.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#62

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:20 pm

I see Hebrews 11:5 as the same instance of that as Phillip with the Eunuch. Moved from one place on Earth to another place on Earth. I do not believe that anybody preceded Jesus "to" heaven. Hebrews 11:13 says "these all died" it does not say "these all died except Enoch"

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#63

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:55 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I see Hebrews 11:5 as the same instance of that as Phillip with the Eunuch. Moved from one place on Earth to another place on Earth. I do not believe that anybody preceded Jesus "to" heaven. Hebrews 11:13 says "these all died" it does not say "these all died except Enoch"
So, when Moses and Elijah came to Jesus on the mountain, where did they come from?

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#64

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:21 pm

What a divine thing to have happen, the image of those men certainly appeared. It was like a photo prophecy, like John in Revelation. Matt 17:1-9 is not proof texts that these people are alive enjoying the eternal bliss of heaven...yet. We should head over to verses in Matt 16:27,28. I ask you, Is the kingdom here now? Has Christ appeared with the angels already and we missed something? Has the dead already been raised? Rev 22:12, Rev 5:10, Col 3:4, 1 Peter 5:1,4. One needs to take very close attention to the words of Christ at the transfiguration Matt 17:9. "tell the "VISION" to no man". We have evidence that it is like John's "vision" in Revelation. A prophecy with your own eyes.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#65

Post by B. W. » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:01 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:What a divine thing to have happen, the image of those men certainly appeared. It was like a photo prophecy, like John in Revelation. Matt 17:1-9 is not proof texts that these people are alive enjoying the eternal bliss of heaven...yet. We should head over to verses in Matt 16:27,28. I ask you, Is the kingdom here now? Has Christ appeared with the angels already and we missed something? Has the dead already been raised? Rev 22:12, Rev 5:10, Col 3:4, 1 Peter 5:1,4. One needs to take very close attention to the words of Christ at the transfiguration Matt 17:9. "tell the "VISION" to no man". We have evidence that it is like John's "vision" in Revelation. A prophecy with your own eyes.
Please verify where in scripture is the word ‘photo prophecy’ is used and validated as an actual experience?

Scripture please - not opinions or conjectures…
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#66

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:12 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:What a divine thing to have happen, the image of those men certainly appeared. It was like a photo prophecy, like John in Revelation. Matt 17:1-9 is not proof texts that these people are alive enjoying the eternal bliss of heaven...yet. We should head over to verses in Matt 16:27,28. I ask you, Is the kingdom here now? Has Christ appeared with the angels already and we missed something? Has the dead already been raised? Rev 22:12, Rev 5:10, Col 3:4, 1 Peter 5:1,4. One needs to take very close attention to the words of Christ at the transfiguration Matt 17:9. "tell the "VISION" to no man". We have evidence that it is like John's "vision" in Revelation. A prophecy with your own eyes.
What the apostles saw were NOT the resurrected bodies of Moses and Elijah, but there spirits in a "corpreal from".
It is quite incorrect to think that God and Jesus are limited to what they can do at any pint in time.
What the aspostles saw was indeed a vision because they were there in the spirit since ONLY in the spirit can humans see the "angelic" forms of divine beings and spirits.
We can NOT ignore the simple and EXPLICIT fact that the spirits of Moses and Elijah were THERE with Jesus and the apostles.
Mark 9:2-8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

2 (A)Six days later, Jesus *took with Him (B)Peter and James and John, and *brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; 3 and (C)His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 4 Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. 5 Peter *said to Jesus, “(D)Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; (E)let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 6 For he did not know what to answer; for they became terrified. 7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and (F)a voice came out of the cloud, “(G)This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!” 8 All at once they looked around and saw no one with them anymore, except Jesus alone.

Luke 9:28-36

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Transfiguration

28 (A)Some eight days after these sayings, He took along (B)Peter and John and James, and (C)went up on the mountain (D)to pray. 29 And while He was (E)praying, the appearance of His face (F)became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His (G)departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and his companions (H)had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. 33 And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, “(I)Master, it is good for us to be here; (J)let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—(K)not realizing what he was saying. 34 While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 Then (L)a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “(M)This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!” 36 And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And (N)they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#67

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:46 pm

The transfiguration was the inauguration of the new covenant. When a person is dead they are really dead. If we are dead and either "go to" heaven or hell immediately after death... what is the need for a 2nd coming for the dead? What need is there for a resurrection? What need is there "to put on immortality" if you are already immortal to begin with? I believe that Moses and Elijah died, and are not enjoying some eternal bliss as "ghosts" The hope is to have a resurrection and eternal life and the established kingdom of God on the new Earth.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#68

Post by B. W. » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:59 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:The transfiguration was the inauguration of the new covenant. When a person is dead they are really dead. If we are dead and either "go to" heaven or hell immediately after death... what is the need for a 2nd coming for the dead? What need is there for a resurrection? What need is there "to put on immortality" if you are already immortal to begin with? I believe that Moses and Elijah died, and are not enjoying some eternal bliss as "ghosts" The hope is to have a resurrection and eternal life and the established kingdom of God on the new Earth.
That is not what the bible teaches at all. You ignore bible verse that tell otherwise to support the way's group think...

You know not the purose of the the final Judgment either, or what God is doing.

No reason, as Jesus siad, to cast pearls before swine... so I will not waste my time on this - you can read the post I have logged hours on answering this matter in detial at your pleasure.

You need to leave the way group who teach that it is okay to break the 1'st commanment, even in heaven...
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#69

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:22 am

Enlighten me on those verses.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#70

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:10 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:The transfiguration was the inauguration of the new covenant. When a person is dead they are really dead. If we are dead and either "go to" heaven or hell immediately after death... what is the need for a 2nd coming for the dead? What need is there for a resurrection? What need is there "to put on immortality" if you are already immortal to begin with? I believe that Moses and Elijah died, and are not enjoying some eternal bliss as "ghosts" The hope is to have a resurrection and eternal life and the established kingdom of God on the new Earth.
Have you read Revelation ??

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#71

Post by B. W. » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:45 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Enlighten me on those verses.
For starters please begin here and read this thread line from the forum that I recently Bumped to the front of the line...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 8&start=30
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#72

Post by B. W. » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:14 am

Here is a quote from the link I posted but on page 10 that gives just a few verse - but not all...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... &start=135

Notice the question john666 and this time try to answer them instead of ignor them...
B. W. wrote:Jesus speaks on Hell in 46 verses Jenna and Nick. Bible does teach that there is life immediately after death.

Ezekiel 32:21-27 in this verse how can the dead speak if they are asleep or non-exist?

Jonah 2:2 how could he cry out if he non-existed?

Matthew 17:3 Moses and Elijah appeared ‘how could they have spoken if they were annihilated or were fast asleep?

Luke 16:22-30 ‘Abraham spoke to the rich man in hell. This does not sound like they were annihilated does it? Why would Jesus use a parable not based on solid truth and facts? - To do other wise for any other reason would have made Jesus sin.

Luke 23:43 ‘Jesus said what the thief on the cross? This also backs up Luke 16:22-31 as true. Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19) and lead captivity captive (Eph 4:8). Jesus did not go to these places asleep in soul sleep or in an annihilated state. Please note that this thief went to Paradise with Jesus very much alive and not to sheol, hell, the pit.

Acts 7:59 - what did Stephen say? He did not cry out ‘'oh gave receive me' but rather cried out: Jesus receive my spirit!

Philippians 1:23 - Paul said it would be better to depart to be with the Lord. If this happened Paul expected to be with Christ and not soul-sleeping not annihilated but rather existing on after death residing with Jesus.

Job 26:5-6 speaks of the shades trembling in sheol. How could they be if they were annihilated? Read Job 26:4-6, ‘With whose help hast thou uttered words? And whose spirit [breath 5397] came forth from thee? 5 The shades [7496] tremble [2342-twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained] beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction [11-Abbadon - a place where ruination is brought out, or drawn out of a person ‘exposing a person as he/she really is - their moral rot slowly uncovered] hath no covering [3682-concealment, masking].  JPS

Numbers 16:29-33 speaks of Korah going down alive into hell.

Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS ‘pretty plain language used here of both death and going alive into the nether world

Revelation 5:5 John speaks to an elder in heaven ‘this elder existed then and was not soul-sleeping nor was he annihilated.

In fact Annihilationism has it roots firmly entrenched in the philosophy of Atomist / materialist traditions like Epicurus. For example, Wikipedia stated that, Epicurus believed that death was not to be feared. When a man dies, he does not feel the pain of death because he no longer is and he therefore feels nothing. Therefore, as Epicurus famously said, "death is nothing to us." When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the false belief that in death there is awareness.

Annihilationism's doctrine contorts scripture to redefine word meanings to bolster doctrine derived by men as the historical record proves.

When the followers of Korah went down alive into Hell, they went down alive. Jesus said that there was a certain rich man that died and went to hell, alive. When God causes mortal life to cease, it is for judgment. God knows these individuals have reached the point where they will never repent and are totally corrupt. This was found in them, not placed within by God. He knows all. He is just. They are sent to wait the final verdict in the depths of hell, alive.

He consigns such to the same place prepared for the devil and his angels, forever. Thus God is not a murderer as life continues after the mortal ceases. God can slay the mortal wicked justly without violation of life he gave and his word given in Genesis Chapter One. So in a sense when God slays the mortal wicked ‘these go into judgment. Before this time, God pleads and warns and exhorts people everywhere to repent through the message of the cross. He offers a way of escape as Jesus paid the penalty for the sin of us all. This is the way of God - as he is merciful and full of grace and truth.

The proof text scriptures that annihilationist use are contrary to Jesus' teaching on hell as well as the bible in both the Old and New Testament by distorting word meanings in the text to support ancient Greek philosophic atomist thought.
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#73

Post by B. W. » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:31 am

John 666 I began a series addressing your very POV (point of View) objections here – several years ago. So please follow the link and please read. Please note that all the strange letters - ' -etc are from an older format the site used that did not switch over due to an upgrade.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... &start=150
B. W. wrote:Part One - Study from Psalms 88:

Introduction:


Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed (shades) rise up to praise you? Selah 11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon? 12 Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?” Psalms 88:10-12, ESV

Those that adhere to the doctrines of Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and the various other forms of conditional immortality use bible verses from Psalms 88:10-12 as a proof text to bolster their assertions by simply connecting these to other verse such a Eccl 9:5-6, Isaiah 26:14, Isaiah 38:18 without regard to paying any attention to context of scripture, continuity with other parts of the bible, and common sense. In other words, one 'leads the witness' to reach a presupposed conclusion based on personal bias.

This is how error can become doctrine. For example, you can take the word translated 'beat' in our Bibles and connect all the passages that describe 'beat / beatings' and teach that is okay to beat up anybody perceived as a fool as a justifiable act of God and then turn it into dogma.

Actually, in fact Psalms 88:10-12, Eccl 9:5-6, Isaiah 26:14, Isaiah 38:18, do not back up such assertions that the dead cease to exist or support some form of soul sleepas we shall soon see. There are other parts neglected in these bible chapters that these dogmas have failed to mention as well as a continued denial of the continuity with other bible passages related to the theme of the subject matter on the hereafter.

Another important note is that all languages of the world are sloppy. One word can be used in a variety of ways. You cannot lock a single definition to a word as concrete and unchanging in all cases it is used. Those that adhere to the doctrines of Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and the various other forms of conditional immortality dogma do just that. They define a word in concrete terms without regard to how it is used in each case where it is used.

For example, such words translated destruction, ruin, destroyed, annihilate, perish, are all cemented to mean non-existence and nothing else. Here is an example of how we use the word annihilate. The Denver Broncos annihilated the Kansas City Chief’s during a Monday night football game. Funny, the Chief’s same players still exist and they all will play another game with another team the following week. If the team was annihilated, then all players should have died during the game and now be buried in their grave if annihilation can only mean non-existences. You see how important it is to apply context to the meaning of a word?

To understand Psalms 88:10-12, one should first consider the writer’s frame of mind and also keep these verses in context with the rest of Psalm 88. Next, the context of Psalm 88 will also line up with other parts of the bible and thus paints a more accurate picture of what these passages mean (as we shall soon see) without any slight of hand.

In the next few post, I’ll point these out in a slow and methodical manner.
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#74

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:49 am

Lets us not forget Revelation 6:9
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under(CL) the altar(CM) the souls of those who had been slain(CN) because of the word of God(CO) and the testimony they had maintained.

And Revelation 7:9
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language,(DT) standing before the throne(DU) and before the Lamb.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#75

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:12 pm

If you think you are already immortal, you can hang out with Plato and his wonderful philosophical concept he had received from the Egyptians.

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