Where We Go When We Die?

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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B. W.
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#46

Post by B. W. » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:07 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Irenaeus has a book called "Against Heresies" and to keep with "orthodoxy" it should be noted that in book 5 chapt 31 it says "Some who are reckoned among the ORTHODOX go beyond the prearranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption. They thus entertain heretical opinions. For the heretics, not admitting the salvation of their flesh, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens." When did this change? It should be noted that it is the heretics that teach you go on to eternal bliss. Which is contrary to when we put on immortality. Do we die, go to heaven mortal, wait for Jesus to go back to Earth and put our "disembodied spirits" or "ghosts" in our new glorified bodies? Justin Martyr stated in "dialouge with Trypho" of (immortality of the soul) "That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us?"

David is not in heaven, Enoch, Elijah...etc. the bible is clear about this.
Hate to tell you this, Irenaeus meant people whose doctrines are similar to yours...

Scripture interprets scripture. You deny the triune nature of man and can’t see that the final resurrections (there are two mentioned in the book of Revelation) is when man’s triune being is reunited in total for a final eternal sentencing.

It is the eternal Spirit of Man that continues on after death: 2 Sam 14:14, Eze 32:21, Eze 32:31, Isa 14:9, 10, Luke 16:23, 24, Job 26:5-6 for example....

Next you did not cite the whole chapter which contradicts your claim about it…

First I know one on the forum who currently believes that upon death people shall pass above the heavens and the Demiurge, and go to the Mother (Achamoth) or to that Father whom they have feigned. Or that Jesus, after the death on the cross went to heaven first. Irenaeus goes on to explain, as does the bible, what and where Jesus went for three days and nights…

You are taking Irenaeus out of context to build a false assumption and you must be called on it.

http://carm.org/irenaeus-heresies5-19-31

CHAPTER 31 -- THE PRESERVATION OF OUR BODIES IS CONFIRMED BY THE RESURRECTION AND ASCENSION OF CHRIST: THE SOULS OF THE SAINTS DURING THE INTERMEDIATE PERIOD ARE IN A STATE OF EXPECTATION OF THAT TIME WHEN THEY SHALL RECEIVE THEIR PERFECT AND CONSUMMATED GLORY.

Since, again, some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption, they thus entertain heretical opinions.

For the heretics, despising the handiwork of God, and not admitting the salvation of their flesh, while they also treat the promise of God contemptuously, and pass beyond God altogether in the sentiments they form, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens and the Demiurge, and go to the Mother (Achamoth) or to that Father whom they have feigned.

Those persons, therefore, who disallow a resurrection affecting the whole man (universam reprobant resurrectionem), and as far as in them lies remove it from the midst [of the Christian scheme], how can they be wondered at, if again they know nothing as to the plan of the resurrection?

For they do not choose to understand, that if these things are as they say, the Lord Himself, in whom they profess to believe, did not rise again upon the third day; but immediately upon His expiring on the cross, undoubtedly departed on high, leaving His body to the earth.

But the case was, that for three days He dwelt in the place where the dead were, as the prophet says concerning Him: "And the Lord remembered His dead saints who slept formerly in the land of sepulture; and He descended to them, to rescue and save them."(3) And the Lord Himself says, "As Jonas remained three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth."(4) Then also the apostle says, "But when He ascended, what is it but that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth?"(5) This, too, David says when prophesying of Him, "And thou hast delivered my soul from the nethermost hell;"(6) and on His rising again the third day, He said to Mary, who was the first to see and to worship Him, "Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to the disciples, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and unto your Father."(7)
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#47

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:03 am

I am not taking Irenaeus out of context. I am simply putting forth "orthodox" belief vs. heresy. We put on immortality at the 2nd coming not before.
Scripture is quite clear that David, Enoch, Elijah are not in heaven currently.
I like this line that is not finished. " and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and unto your Father, to my God and to your God" John 20:17

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#48

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:15 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I am not taking Irenaeus out of context. I am simply putting forth "orthodox" belief vs. heresy. We put on immortality at the 2nd coming not before.
Scripture is quite clear that David, Enoch, Elijah are not in heaven currently.
I like this line that is not finished. " and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and unto your Father, to my God and to your God" John 20:17
1stjohn, Again, You are denying Jesus' two natures.http://carm.org/jesus-two-natures
Who taught you that Jesus isn't God? Did a church teach you this? A family member? Who?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#49

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:22 am

1stjohn, how do you explain John 10:30-33? The Jews wanted to stone Jesus, because Jesus claimed to be God.
30 “I and the Father are one.”

31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
John 10:30-33

Or, John 20:28
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
If Jesus isn't God, why didn't he correct Thomas?

1stjohn, The only way to make sense of scripture that says Jesus is God, and scripture that says Jesus is man, is to understand Jesus is fully God, and fully man. Otherwise, the bible would contradict itself.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#50

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:45 am

Jesus did not claim to be God "he said in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one" the words prior ... "25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand"
They are working together. Like Adam and Eve are not "one flesh' (to mean one person) because they have sex. They are two people performing in the same action... now there are different roles for each person.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#51

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:52 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Jesus did not claim to be God "he said in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one" the words prior ... "25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand"
They are working together. Like Adam and Eve are not "one flesh' (to mean one person) because they have sex. They are two people performing in the same action... now there are different roles for each person.
1stjohn, according to the Jews speaking to Jesus, he was claiming to be God. Otherwise they wouldn't have accused Jesus of claiming he was God.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#52

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:36 pm

That's the point "who was speaking" it certainly was NOT Jesus who said "I am God" it was the Jews

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#53

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:49 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:That's the point "who was speaking" it certainly was NOT Jesus who said "I am God" it was the Jews
John 10:30 IS Jesus speaking.

1stjohn, this is as plain as day, and you are refusing to believe what is painfully obvious. You just refuse to see the truth. Ask God to open your eyes, so that you can see and believe. And by believing on Jesus, the real Jesus, you will have eternal life. If you're going to believe in some other Jesus, besides the Jesus of the bible who is God, you might as well believe in Freddy Krueger, because your Jesus can't save anyone.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#54

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:25 am

Here is a very nice article I stumbled on:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?ppo=293

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#55

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:18 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I am not taking Irenaeus out of context. I am simply putting forth "orthodox" belief vs. heresy. We put on immortality at the 2nd coming not before.
Scripture is quite clear that David, Enoch, Elijah are not in heaven currently.
I like this line that is not finished. " and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and unto your Father, to my God and to your God" John 20:17
David died, there is no record of Enoch or Elijah dying.
There is however a record of Elijah being seen with Jesus and Moses by Peter, James and John.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#56

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:24 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Here is a very nice article I stumbled on:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?ppo=293
John666 you belong to the Charles Taze Russell groups and are for all purposes a JW as you advance their cause...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taze_Russell

You are in a Cult sir...
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#57

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:37 am

Hebrews 11 records all the people of faith listed died. Hebrews 11:5,13,32,39,40. I see "all these died" "did not receive the promise" and "not made perfect"

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#58

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:04 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Hebrews 11 records all the people of faith listed died. Hebrews 11:5,13,32,39,40. I see "all these died" "did not receive the promise" and "not made perfect"
Again you adhere so strongly to Charles Taze Russell’s dictations that you can't see. Such teachings as his blind a person and prevents a person from reasoning with the Lord himself.

Where did they go - according to Hebrews book - they reside with with Jesus in Heaven right now waiting for the fullness of the promise - re-united with a new body, re-united with their soul/spiritual essence due to the promise God made all Humanity in Gen 1:26-28 in preparation for the New Heavens and earth to come.

That is a foreign concept to you because it promotes and ask you to find the Lord and reason with him about it, not rely on me to explain it to you.

Mr Russell forbids such reasoning and instead reasons for you – so you who follow him become his literal dictation machine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taze_Russell

So I ask - do you realy want to meet the real Jesus Christ?
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#59

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:14 am

I am not Jw TY for trying. :lol:

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#60

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:28 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I am not Jw TY for trying. :lol:
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/tw_s ... groups.htm

A splinter group from The Way International then? who holds to Mr Russell's Restoration Light teachings...?
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
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