1stjohn0666 wrote:we will sleep the "sleep of death" "The dead know nothing" "The dead do not praise" <-- these are unconscious attributes. Even though the spirit will return to "God who gave it" The bible is clear that the rewards and punishments happen at the 2nd coming. David is not in heaven, Enoch, Elijah...etc. the bible is clear about this.
Here is a post I did on this forum regarding the subject on Ecclesiastes 9 and year or so ago:
Part Three continued from my last post;
To answer some of your points regarding Ecc 9
Remember, bible interprets bible – both Old and New Testaments testify clearly that after one dies, their spiritual being in judged and continues on in cognizance either with the Lord or in a place called hell. That is one reason the writer Psalms 55 said this:
Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them.
" JPS – That's pretty plain language used here of both death and arriving alive into the nether world…
I gave you many of these verses and you cannot toss them out when you come to passages like Psalms 37:9, 10, 20 – Ecc 9:1-6 – Psalms 88 etc… or you’ll have proven a contradiction beyond all doubt. I am posting below a modified/edited response written on this forum back during 2008…
...Let’s look at Ecclesiastes 9:1-6 and actually discover what it is saying contextually…
Ecclesiastes 9:3 ESV, “This is an evil in all that is done under the sun that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Notice it says – they go to the dead… interesting – where do the dead go? Bible elsewhere describes where, sheol, cognizant placed in a congregation mentioned in Proverbs 21:16 , The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades.
In such a place, the unrighteous are described cognizant as Job 26:5 states – revealed by word translated tremble – writhe, pained, grieved, vexed, etc… Interesting – look at all the verses I quoted in parts one and two as well of this thread. Next, read…
Ecclesiastes 9:4-5, “But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
What does this all mean? Soul sleep – annihilationism? Or something else? Look at the imagery first:
He who is joined to the living Lord has hope. Sinners were classed as dogs to the ancient Jewish people and in fact a woman said to Jesus, even the dogs eat crumbs from the master’s table
illustrates this point. Therefore what is being said in verse 4 is simple God transforms those, who were likened like a mangy flea bitten dog, into a new creation i.e. Born Again and have joined themselves to the Lord of all living. Bible tells us that God changes wretches like us into kings and priest and are now remembered inscribed in the book of life.
However, those that join death’s lion and share its pride have no hope. Recall: Satan roars like a lion seeking whom to devour. Principle message from verse 4 is clear: join yourself to the living Lord and forsake the pride of the dead lion.
Why – because: Ecclesiastes 9:6 answers, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun
This is telling us that those who have departed have no more share in the land of mortals. Who is being mentioned: All people or those who join the Lion’s pride? The context explains who – those who die without hope – the unrighteous connected directly by context linked to whom Ecc 9:3 clearly describes.
This means such persons have been cut off from mortal life, and are now separated from it; no more can they share in the mortal state of the flesh. Instead they found a place where the wicked have no rest, a place where the dead lion devours, where they are banished from God and hope forever. Where they are held in punishment awaiting the resurrection of the dead which raises the existing spiritual body of a person to his/her final domain.
Look again at Ecc 9:6
, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun
: Explains what is forgotten and why no memory on earth will remain of such persons mentioned as they have no more share in anything done under the sun – in other words they do not come back to this planet. This mortal life under the sun they'll know nothing about any more. Think of it another way - the movies have it all wrong - Freddie Kruger and Jason the killers can’t come back to life for revenge…
I do not want to sound rude but go to a graveyard and read these verses out loud and you may get a better understanding of what these verses mean and note which graves have the most flowers compared with those that do not. How many people lived in ancient times or even 200 years ago? Are not their thoughts and dreams forgotten? No memory of them remains. Unless there were famous and even then, time moves on and their history will fade too. That is what Eccl 9 and Ps 37 and 88 refer too...
That is what Ecc 9:1-6 is revealing. We who are still mortally alive will forget the dead and their lives forgotten by us. That is the context of Psalms 37:1-20 and Psalms 89 as well. Ps 37 refers to the wicked becoming no more on earth. The memory of such vanishes from those who are alive in the flesh as time passes.
In Fact, Ezekiel 32:19-32 describes the cognizant fate of those who caused woe in the land of the living as soldiers in the bad part of Sheol/Hell’s pit. They did not vanish from God’s sight but only ours. For example, we who are alive in the flesh right now have no memory of the name of the head charioteer in Pharaohs’ army, do we? Or the names of Ottoman Turks who butchered Christians during WW 1 – do we? So like smoke, the wicked are no more, memory of them vanishes here on earth, but in Hell, there they remain, cognizant…there eternal spirit (shade) still alive.
Bible passages that suggest that the unrighteous dead are no more, or vanish are applied to the realm of mortal living. It is from the flesh/blood mortal world that they are no more part of and vanish from. Psalms 37:20 is easily taken out of context from context Psalms 37:1-2 begins with, which speaks of the wicked being cut off from this mortal flesh and blood life. Such cannot return from the dead to continue to cause harm. This Psalms does not say what happens after they are cut off from the land flesh/blood mortal living.
The book of Job records the same sentiments… see verse 9 and note context pertains to mortality.
Job 7:8 "The eye of him who sees me will behold me no longer; Your eyes will be on me, but I will not be."
Job 7:9 "When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up."
Job 7:10 "He will not return again to his house, nor will his place know him anymore."
Job 7:11 "Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul."
Psalms 88 also contains the same sentiments as well.
Bible explains bible and after one dies comes judgment Hebrews 9:27, a person’s spiritual essence, the real them, continues on either with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:6c) or banished forever away from the Lord. In the banished place, they are cognizant as Job 26:5, Ezekiel 26:20, Ezekiel 32:19-32, Luke 16:19-30, Matthew 25:41, 46 speak of.
To imply that this does not happen, denies the verses that clearly speak of everlasting contempt, recompense, to the wicked and produces contradiction.
Note on the Psalms 37:20 NET translation from the NET version uses a poor choice of words. The word translated incinerate is not in the text but was implied by the translators. The word is the Hebrew is kÄlÄh – consume, vanish, complete failing: it is a verb which means to complete, to accomplish regarding end, finish, or failing. Its primary meaning implies to consummate, to bring to completion – not incineration.
KÄlÄh is used twice in the text but not place next to each other as the verb word die is used in Genesis 2:17 and 3:4 (shall die-die) for emphatic definition. But rather smoke is place between the two words. Emphatic incineration is not implied because a word separates from the other KÄlÄh by a noun (smoke). The meaning changes to the wicked meeting their just end in this mortal life, and vanish from it: Nothing to do with the state of the afterlife they’ll face.
Go back to verse 1 and 2 for context as it points to how such things (the evil wicked) are viewed from a mortal perspective, how they fail and meet their mortal end from a mortal perspective: They’ll vanish from mortal life and they will be forgotten by those mortals living in the future.