Where We Go When We Die?

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#31

Post by Bill McEnaney » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:14 am

Here's what St. Justin Martyr says about the immortality of the soul in his First Apology.
CHAPTER XVIII -- PROOF OF IMMORTALITY AND THE RESURRECTION.

For reflect upon the end of each of the preceding kings, how they died the death common to all, which, if it issued in insensibility, would be a godsend to all the wicked. But since sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked), see that ye neglect not to be convinced, and to hold as your belief, that these things are true. For let even necromancy, and the divinations you practise by immaculate children, and the evoking of departed human souls, and those who are called among the magi, Dream-senders and Assistant-spirits (Familiars), and all that is done by those who are skilled in such matters--let these persuade you that even after death souls are in a state of sensation; and those who are seized and cast about by the spirits of the dead, whom all call daemoniacs or madmen; and what you repute as oracles, both of Amphilochus, Dodana, Pytho, and as many other such as exist; and the opinions of your authors, Empedocles and Pythagoras, Plato and Socrates, and the pit of Homer, and the descent of Ulysses to inspect these things, and all that has been uttered of a like kind. Such favour as you grant to these, grant also to us, who not less but more firmly than they believe in God; since we expect to receive again our own bodies, though they be dead and cast into the earth, for we maintain that with God nothing is impossible.

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Re: Moses and Elijah

#32

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:04 am

bluesman wrote:How did Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus if Moses and Elijah were suppose to be asleep in the grave? God does as he does.

Didn't the whirlwind take Elijah to heaven? into the sky yes, but it is recorded that a letter 10 years after the whirlwind incident was delivered to Jeroham

What does it mean God took Enoch? Like that of Phillip in Acts 8. Hebrews 11 should lead you to a truth

When did David go to heaven? Acts 2:34 David is not in heaven

If Christ had to die for our sins, then how was Moses and Elijah able to appear? same as 1


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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#33

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:01 pm

ECCL 12:7 says the body goes back to the dust, and the spirit returns to God. The Spirit is like that of Gen 2:7, the life giving breath from God. I would also note that the spirit nowhere in scripture is spoken of as a conscious entity apart from the body. The soul ceases to exist until the resurrection. The mortal must put on immortality 1 Cor 15:53. In Hebrews Enoch died and did not receive the promise nor Elijah. The bible clearly states that David is not in heaven. The thief on the cross, one could argue that since Jesus did not go to Paradise that day the thief did not either. Of Gen 2:7 we should note that man "became" a living soul (nephesh) not "given" a soul

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#34

Post by B. W. » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:15 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:ECCL 12:7 says the body goes back to the dust, and the spirit returns to God. The Spirit is like that of Gen 2:7, the life giving breath from God. I would also note that the spirit nowhere in scripture is spoken of as a conscious entity apart from the body. The soul ceases to exist until the resurrection. The mortal must put on immortality 1 Cor 15:53. In Hebrews Enoch died and did not receive the promise nor Elijah. The bible clearly states that David is not in heaven. The thief on the cross, one could argue that since Jesus did not go to Paradise that day the thief did not either. Of Gen 2:7 we should note that man "became" a living soul (nephesh) not "given" a soul
Are you so sure that NOWHERE in scripture the spirit is spoken of as a conscious entity apart from the body?

Well what about...


Job 4:15, 16, "Then a spirit passed before my face; The hair on my body stood up. 16 It stood still, But I could not discern its appearance. A form was before my eyes; There was silence; Then I heard a voice saying..."

Hmmm, spirits speak - interesting.... have being... and can speak!

Mat 12:43-45 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation."

Whose spirit? How can a spirit have the ability of possible deceit?

Psalms 32:2, "Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit."

We are called to test the spirits and bible tells us how...

1 John 4:1, 2, 3, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

God makes his angels – spirits?

Psalms 104:4 Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire.

Luke 24:38, 39, "And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Your comments are very Christadelphian like, yet, the bible makes it clear the Trinity of Being man/woman has…

1 Th 5:23, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The spirit of man is more than mere breath, force, or power –

Job 26:5, 6 "The dead (st 7496 – rephim means in ancient Hebrew - departed spirits in sheol) tremble (st2342 in Hebrew is “ A verb meaning to whirl, to shake, to fear, to dance, to writhe, to grieve. This word has many different meanings, most of which derive from two basic ideas: to whirl in motion and to writhe in pain.” - From AMG’s The Complete Word Study Dictionary), Those under the waters and those inhabiting them. 6 Sheol is naked before Him, And Destruction has no covering.

We have in this text of Job the principle that the departed spirits are alive, cognizant because they experience what the translated word tremble means…

Also Ezekiel 32:31 states old dead Pharaoh is able to see in the afterlife in a place called the pit…

You are in error.. john666
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#35

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:23 am

The HUMAN Spirit returns to God.... You were speaking of "divine" Spirit beings. huge difference.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#36

Post by B. W. » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:12 am

B. W. wrote:
1 Th 5:23, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The spirit of man is more than mere breath, force, or power –

Job 26:5, 6 "The dead (st 7496 – rephim means in ancient Hebrew - departed spirits in sheol) tremble (st2342 in Hebrew is “ A verb meaning to whirl, to shake, to fear, to dance, to writhe, to grieve. This word has many different meanings, most of which derive from two basic ideas: to whirl in motion and to writhe in pain.” - From AMG’s The Complete Word Study Dictionary), Those under the waters and those inhabiting them. 6 Sheol is naked before Him, And Destruction has no covering.

We have in this text of Job the principle that the departed spirits are alive, cognizant because they experience what the translated word tremble means…

Also Ezekiel 32:31 states old dead Pharaoh is able to see in the afterlife in a place called the pit…

You are in error.. john666

All Bible quotes are from the NKJV
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#37

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:25 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:ECCL 12:7 says the body goes back to the dust, and the spirit returns to God. The Spirit is like that of Gen 2:7, the life giving breath from God. I would also note that the spirit nowhere in scripture is spoken of as a conscious entity apart from the body. The soul ceases to exist until the resurrection. The mortal must put on immortality 1 Cor 15:53. In Hebrews Enoch died and did not receive the promise nor Elijah. The bible clearly states that David is not in heaven. The thief on the cross, one could argue that since Jesus did not go to Paradise that day the thief did not either. Of Gen 2:7 we should note that man "became" a living soul (nephesh) not "given" a soul
You are interpretating the texts to what you want them to say, just as those that interpret the text in a why they want them to say.
All are guilty of take what is implicit and trying to "make sense of it".
There are many passages in which the spirit (human) is given its attributes and lets us not forget that it is when John and Paul and others are in the spirit.that they have revelations and can see Christ and God and Heaven.
Paul is also very clear about his desire to be in the spirit and to be back with Christ, viewing that state to be better than what he was in now.
As for the passage of Paradise, we do NOT know what happened in the "3 days" before Jesus' resurrection, except that he preached to the spirits that where captive and we also know that he gave up his spirit to His Father and there is really no reason to think that, at one point in that time frame, that Jesus did NOT go and take the thief to paradise.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#38

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:27 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:The HUMAN Spirit returns to God.... You were speaking of "divine" Spirit beings. huge difference.
Perhaps, but not so much since, we will be like "the angels" and as such, will be "spirit beings" like them.
What can be debated of course is WHEN.
Most passages seem to imply that it is after the resurrection that we will be given these new bodies that are spirit bodies.
Just like the angels have now.
There is no reason to think that our spirit, when in heaven with God, is NOT sentient about what is going on.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#39

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:19 pm

My whole point when debating life after death is the hope part of it. I mean this, Is our hope to become "ghosts" or spirits? Scrip says we get new glorified bodies. Ireneaus, an early church father wrote in against heresies book 5 cht 31 "For the heretics, not admitting the salvation of their flesh, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens" It was the teaching of "the heretics" that taught immortality of the soul. Justin Martyr also said something to the like, saying Dialogue with Trypho... "we heard this from Plato" It's worth a peek into these two people writings.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#40

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:00 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:My whole point when debating life after death is the hope part of it. I mean this, Is our hope to become "ghosts" or spirits? Scrip says we get new glorified bodies. Ireneaus, an early church father wrote in against heresies book 5 cht 31 "For the heretics, not admitting the salvation of their flesh, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens" It was the teaching of "the heretics" that taught immortality of the soul. Justin Martyr also said something to the like, saying Dialogue with Trypho... "we heard this from Plato" It's worth a peek into these two people writings.
I believe the issue is the "confusion" between spirit and soul.
We do NOT have an immortal soul, it can die (be killed) as Jesus warns.
We do have an immortal spirit BUT over the centuries, soul and spirit have become "intermixed" and meaning the same thing basically for many people.
Animals and humans, all living beings have souls (living souls) but only Humans have a Spirit.
When we die the spirit returns to God and the "living soul" dies ( or sleeps if you prefer) and upon the resurrection, the soul is "reborn"/"awakened" when God gives back our Spirit BUT the big difference is the body we will have then, it will be a "spiritual" body ( not a spirit body), it will be like Jesus' after the resurrection - flesh and bone ( not blood) and with the same abilities and properties that Jesus' ( and the Angels) "corporeal" bodies have.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#41

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:26 am

we will sleep the "sleep of death" "The dead know nothing" "The dead do not praise" <-- these are unconscious attributes. Even though the spirit will return to "God who gave it" The bible is clear that the rewards and punishments happen at the 2nd coming. David is not in heaven, Enoch, Elijah...etc. the bible is clear about this.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#42

Post by B. W. » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:28 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:we will sleep the "sleep of death" "The dead know nothing" "The dead do not praise" <-- these are unconscious attributes. Even though the spirit will return to "God who gave it" The bible is clear that the rewards and punishments happen at the 2nd coming. David is not in heaven, Enoch, Elijah...etc. the bible is clear about this.
Here is a post I did on this forum regarding the subject on Ecclesiastes 9 and year or so ago:

Part Three continued from my last post;

To answer some of your points regarding Ecc 9


Remember, bible interprets bible – both Old and New Testaments testify clearly that after one dies, their spiritual being in judged and continues on in cognizance either with the Lord or in a place called hell. That is one reason the writer Psalms 55 said this:

Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS – That's pretty plain language used here of both death and arriving alive into the nether world…

I gave you many of these verses and you cannot toss them out when you come to passages like Psalms 37:9, 10, 20 – Ecc 9:1-6 – Psalms 88 etc… or you’ll have proven a contradiction beyond all doubt. I am posting below a modified/edited response written on this forum back during 2008…

...Let’s look at Ecclesiastes 9:1-6 and actually discover what it is saying contextually…

Ecclesiastes 9:3 ESV, “This is an evil in all that is done under the sun that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Notice it says – they go to the dead… interesting – where do the dead go? Bible elsewhere describes where, sheol, cognizant placed in a congregation mentioned in Proverbs 21:16 , The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades. JPS

In such a place, the unrighteous are described cognizant as Job 26:5 states – revealed by word translated tremble – writhe, pained, grieved, vexed, etc… Interesting – look at all the verses I quoted in parts one and two as well of this thread. Next, read…

Ecclesiastes 9:4-5, “But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

What does this all mean? Soul sleep – annihilationism? Or something else? Look at the imagery first:

He who is joined to the living Lord has hope. Sinners were classed as dogs to the ancient Jewish people and in fact a woman said to Jesus, even the dogs eat crumbs from the master’s table illustrates this point. Therefore what is being said in verse 4 is simple God transforms those, who were likened like a mangy flea bitten dog, into a new creation i.e. Born Again and have joined themselves to the Lord of all living. Bible tells us that God changes wretches like us into kings and priest and are now remembered inscribed in the book of life.

However, those that join death’s lion and share its pride have no hope. Recall: Satan roars like a lion seeking whom to devour. Principle message from verse 4 is clear: join yourself to the living Lord and forsake the pride of the dead lion.

Why – because: Ecclesiastes 9:6 answers, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.”

This is telling us that those who have departed have no more share in the land of mortals. Who is being mentioned: All people or those who join the Lion’s pride? The context explains who – those who die without hope – the unrighteous connected directly by context linked to whom Ecc 9:3 clearly describes.

This means such persons have been cut off from mortal life, and are now separated from it; no more can they share in the mortal state of the flesh. Instead they found a place where the wicked have no rest, a place where the dead lion devours, where they are banished from God and hope forever. Where they are held in punishment awaiting the resurrection of the dead which raises the existing spiritual body of a person to his/her final domain.

Look again at Ecc 9:6, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun: Explains what is forgotten and why no memory on earth will remain of such persons mentioned as they have no more share in anything done under the sun – in other words they do not come back to this planet. This mortal life under the sun they'll know nothing about any more. Think of it another way - the movies have it all wrong - Freddie Kruger and Jason the killers can’t come back to life for revenge…

I do not want to sound rude but go to a graveyard and read these verses out loud and you may get a better understanding of what these verses mean and note which graves have the most flowers compared with those that do not. How many people lived in ancient times or even 200 years ago? Are not their thoughts and dreams forgotten? No memory of them remains. Unless there were famous and even then, time moves on and their history will fade too. That is what Eccl 9 and Ps 37 and 88 refer too...

That is what Ecc 9:1-6 is revealing. We who are still mortally alive will forget the dead and their lives forgotten by us. That is the context of Psalms 37:1-20 and Psalms 89 as well. Ps 37 refers to the wicked becoming no more on earth. The memory of such vanishes from those who are alive in the flesh as time passes.

In Fact, Ezekiel 32:19-32 describes the cognizant fate of those who caused woe in the land of the living as soldiers in the bad part of Sheol/Hell’s pit. They did not vanish from God’s sight but only ours. For example, we who are alive in the flesh right now have no memory of the name of the head charioteer in Pharaohs’ army, do we? Or the names of Ottoman Turks who butchered Christians during WW 1 – do we? So like smoke, the wicked are no more, memory of them vanishes here on earth, but in Hell, there they remain, cognizant…there eternal spirit (shade) still alive.

Bible passages that suggest that the unrighteous dead are no more, or vanish are applied to the realm of mortal living. It is from the flesh/blood mortal world that they are no more part of and vanish from. Psalms 37:20 is easily taken out of context from context Psalms 37:1-2 begins with, which speaks of the wicked being cut off from this mortal flesh and blood life. Such cannot return from the dead to continue to cause harm. This Psalms does not say what happens after they are cut off from the land flesh/blood mortal living.

The book of Job records the same sentiments… see verse 9 and note context pertains to mortality.

Job 7:8 "The eye of him who sees me will behold me no longer; Your eyes will be on me, but I will not be."
Job 7:9 "When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up."
Job 7:10 "He will not return again to his house, nor will his place know him anymore."
Job 7:11 "Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul."
NASB

Psalms 88 also contains the same sentiments as well.

Bible explains bible and after one dies comes judgment Hebrews 9:27, a person’s spiritual essence, the real them, continues on either with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:6c) or banished forever away from the Lord. In the banished place, they are cognizant as Job 26:5, Ezekiel 26:20, Ezekiel 32:19-32, Luke 16:19-30, Matthew 25:41, 46 speak of.

To imply that this does not happen, denies the verses that clearly speak of everlasting contempt, recompense, to the wicked and produces contradiction.

Note on the Psalms 37:20 NET translation from the NET version uses a poor choice of words. The word translated incinerate is not in the text but was implied by the translators. The word is the Hebrew is kālāh – consume, vanish, complete failing: it is a verb which means to complete, to accomplish regarding end, finish, or failing. Its primary meaning implies to consummate, to bring to completion – not incineration.

Kālāh is used twice in the text but not place next to each other as the verb word die is used in Genesis 2:17 and 3:4 (shall die-die) for emphatic definition. But rather smoke is place between the two words. Emphatic incineration is not implied because a word separates from the other Kālāh by a noun (smoke). The meaning changes to the wicked meeting their just end in this mortal life, and vanish from it: Nothing to do with the state of the afterlife they’ll face.

Go back to verse 1 and 2 for context as it points to how such things (the evil wicked) are viewed from a mortal perspective, how they fail and meet their mortal end from a mortal perspective: They’ll vanish from mortal life and they will be forgotten by those mortals living in the future.
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#43

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:33 pm

I don't see your point in anything that you gave.
David is not in heaven, Enoch, Elijah...etc. the bible is clear about this.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#44

Post by B. W. » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:36 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:I don't see your point in anything that you gave.
David is not in heaven, Enoch, Elijah...etc. the bible is clear about this.
Can't be any plainer...

Look again at Ecc 9:6, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun: Explains what is forgotten and why no memory on earth will remain of such persons mentioned as they have no more share in anything done under the sun – in other words they do not come back to this planet. This mortal life under the sun they'll know nothing about any more. Think of it another way - the movies have it all wrong - Freddie Kruger and Jason the killers can’t come back to life for revenge…

I do not want to sound rude but go to a graveyard and read these verses out loud and you may get a better understanding of what these verses mean and note which graves have the most flowers compared with those that do not. How many people lived in ancient times or even 200 years ago? Are not their thoughts and dreams forgotten? No memory of them remains. Unless there were famous and even then, time moves on and their history will fade too. That is what Eccl 9 and Ps 37 and 88 refer too...

That is what Ecc 9:1-6 is revealing. We who are still mortally alive will forget the dead and their lives forgotten by us. That is the context of Psalms 37:1-20 and Psalms 89 as well. Ps 37 refers to the wicked becoming no more on earth. The memory of such vanishes from those who are alive in the flesh as time passes.

In Fact, Ezekiel 32:19-32 describes the cognizant fate of those who caused woe in the land of the living as soldiers in the bad part of Sheol/Hell’s pit. They did not vanish from God’s sight but only ours. For example, we who are alive in the flesh right now have no memory of the name of the head charioteer in Pharaohs’ army, do we? Or the names of Ottoman Turks who butchered Christians during WW 1 – do we? So like smoke, the wicked are no more, memory of them vanishes here on earth, but in Hell, there they remain, cognizant…there eternal spirit (shade) still alive.

Bible passages that suggest that the unrighteous dead are no more, or vanish are applied to the realm of mortal living. It is from the flesh/blood mortal world that they are no more part of and vanish from. Psalms 37:20 is easily taken out of context from context Psalms 37:1-2 begins with, which speaks of the wicked being cut off from this mortal flesh and blood life. Such cannot return from the dead to continue to cause harm. This Psalms does not say what happens after they are cut off from the land flesh/blood mortal living.

The book of Job records the same sentiments… see verse 9 and note context pertains to mortality.

Job 7:8 "The eye of him who sees me will behold me no longer; Your eyes will be on me, but I will not be."
Job 7:9 "When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up."
Job 7:10 "He will not return again to his house, nor will his place know him anymore."
Job 7:11 "Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul." NASB

...Bible explains bible and after one dies comes judgment Hebrews 9:27, a person’s spiritual essence, the real them, continues on either with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:6c) or banished forever away from the Lord. In the banished place, they are cognizant as Job 26:5, Ezekiel 26:20, Ezekiel 32:19-32, Luke 16:19-30, Matthew 25:41, 46 speaks of.

To imply that this does not happen, denies the verses that clearly speak of everlasting contempt, recompense, to the wicked and produces contradiction.

Note on the Psalms 37:20 NET translation from the NET version uses a poor choice of words. The word translated incinerate is not in the text but was implied by the translators. The word is the Hebrew is kālāh – consume, vanish, complete failing: it is a verb which means to complete, to accomplish regarding end, finish, or failing. Its primary meaning implies to consummate, to bring to completion – not incineration.

Kālāh is used twice in the text but not place next to each other as the verb word die is used in Genesis 2:17 and 3:4 (shall die-die) for emphatic definition. But rather smoke is place between the two words. Emphatic incineration is not implied because a word separates from the other Kālāh by a noun (smoke). The meaning changes to the wicked meeting their just end in this mortal life, and vanish from it: Nothing to do with the state of the afterlife they’ll face.

Go back to verse 1 and 2 for context as it points to how such things (the evil wicked) are viewed from a mortal perspective, how they fail and meet their mortal end from a mortal perspective: They’ll vanish from mortal life and they will be forgotten by those mortals living in the future.
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#45

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:04 am

Irenaeus has a book called "Against Heresies" and to keep with "orthodoxy" it should be noted that in book 5 chapt 31 it says "Some who are reckoned among the ORTHODOX go beyond the prearranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption. They thus entertain heretical opinions. For the heretics, not admitting the salvation of their flesh, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens." When did this change? It should be noted that it is the heretics that teach you go on to eternal bliss. Which is contrary to when we put on immortality. Do we die, go to heaven mortal, wait for Jesus to go back to Earth and put our "disembodied spirits" or "ghosts" in our new glorified bodies? Justin Martyr stated in "dialouge with Trypho" of (immortality of the soul) "That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us?"

David is not in heaven, Enoch, Elijah...etc. the bible is clear about this.

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