Where We Go When We Die?

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Atticus Finch
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#16

Post by Atticus Finch » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:16 pm

Gman wrote:
Also I forgot to tell you... There is some scientific proof that when a person dies their body actually becomes a tad lighter... So perhaps there is some soulweight, but the science isn't extactly sure of the real weight (like 21 grams or something).
I remember reading of a Doctor from the 1800's who would record in a book all of the NDE's his patients had during their last few minutes before death.

I also remember reading of a Doctor in the 1800's who weighed bodies before and after death to find out how much the soul weighed.

Do you have a link for the scientific proof of the weight loss? Wouldn't it just be something entirely natural with the body rather than the leaving soul?

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#17

Post by Gman » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:04 pm

Atticus Finch wrote:Do you have a link for the scientific proof of the weight loss? Wouldn't it just be something entirely natural with the body rather than the leaving soul?
Again it depends... I would probably label it more of a curiosity than anything.. Do simple functions of the mind produce weight? We know that the mind produces electricity, so when that electricity goes does the weight go with it? Perhaps a mystery...

I thought Wikipedia has some pretty cool things to say about the soul..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul

Science and the soul

Science and medicine seeks naturalistic accounts of the observable natural world. This stance is known as methodological naturalism[4], which is silent on the question of whether non-material or supernatural entities, such as the soul, can or do exist as distinct from natural entities. Scientists, therefore, investigate the soul as a human belief or as concept that shapes cognition and understanding of the world (see Memetics), rather than as an entity in and of itself.

When modern scientists speak of the soul outside of this cultural and psychological context, it is generally as a poetic synonym for mind. Francis Crick's book The Astonishing Hypothesis, for example, has the subtitle, "The scientific search for the soul". Crick holds the position that one can learn everything knowable about the human soul by studying the workings of the human brain. Depending on one's belief regarding the relationship between the soul and the mind, then, the findings of neuroscience may be relevant to one's understanding of the soul.

A search of the PubMed research literature database shows the following numbers of articles with the indicated term in the title:

1. brain — 167,244
2. consciousness — 2,918 (842, 29%, of these articles also include “brain” in the database entry)
3. soul - 552 (40, 7%, of these articles also include “brain” in the database entry. Many of these articles deal with medical ethics issue such as the implications of religious beliefs on decisions about life support for people in persistent vegetative states)

An oft-encountered analogy is that the brain is to computer hardware as the mind is to computer software. The idea of the mind as software has led some scientists to use the word "soul" to emphasize their belief that the human mind has powers beyond or at least qualitatively different from what artificial software can do. Roger Penrose expounds this position in The Emperor's New Mind[5]. He posits that the mind is in fact not like a computer as generally understood, but rather a quantum computer, that can do things impossible on a classical computer, such as decide the halting problem. Some have located the soul in this possible difference between the mind and a classical computer.

Attempted demonstrations of the soul as distinct from the mind

During the late 19th and first half 20th century, researchers attempted to weigh people who were known to be dying, and record their weight accurately at the time of death. As an example, Dr. Duncan MacDougall, in the early 1900s, sought to measure the weight purportedly lost by a human body when the soul departed the body upon death. MacDougall weighed dying patients in an attempt to prove that the soul was material and measurable. These experiments are widely considered to have had little if any scientific merit, and although MacDougall's results varied considerably from 21 grams, for some people this figure has become synonymous with the measure of a soul's weight. Experiments such as MacDougall's have not been repeated with current precision equipment and research tools, and snopes.com concludes of one researcher that:

"MacDougall's results were flawed because the methodology used to harvest them was suspect, the sample size far too small, and the ability to measure changes in weight imprecise. For this reason, credence should not be given to the idea his experiments proved something, let alone that they measured the weight of the soul as 21 grams. His postulations on this topic are a curiousity, but nothing more."

Source and details: http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

Researchers, most notably Ian Stevenson and Brian Weiss have studied reports of children talking about past-life experiences. Any evidence that these experiences were in fact real would require a change in scientific understanding of the mind or would support some notions of the soul.
[edit]

Research on the concept of the soul

In his book Consilience, E. O. Wilson took note that sociology has identified belief in a soul as one of the universal human cultural elements. Wilson suggested that biologists need to investigate how human genes predispose people to believe in a soul.

Daniel Dennett has championed the idea that the human survival strategy depends heavily on adoption of the intentional stance, a behavioral strategy that predicts the actions of others based on the expectation that they have a mind like one's own (see theory of mind). Mirror neurons in brain regions such as Broca's area may facilitate this behavioral strategy. The intentional stance, Dennett suggests, has proven so successful that people tend to apply it to all aspects of human experience, thus leading to animism and to other conceptualizations of soul.

But as several theologians and philosophers have noted (e.g. Keith Sutherland), claims by Dennett and his ilk are prompted by the philosophical agenda of physicalism. One counter-argument points out that just because the brain has regions that deal with colour and other aspects of vision, one does not argue that the genes produce an area to promote the illusion of a blue sky. By analogy, if there is a 'God sense' just as there is a sense of vision, it seems to argue for the objective existence of an extra-mundane reality.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

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Where do we go when We die?

#18

Post by Horace.Miles » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:39 pm

According to scripture you go to sleep.

We are a three part being - Body, Soul and Spirit

Your body returns to dust when you die.

Your soul which in essence is who you are a person remains in the ground.

Your Spirit or breath of life returns to God. That self same spirit can be compared to batteries. If you have a flash light with out the batteries it is just a case. Put in the batteries and you give it life or animation. You can take those self same batteries and put them into a another flashlight and they will work.

According to the scriptures this is a old subject and is discussed in 1 Thes.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If they are already in heaven from where are they rising. And we know that their bodies are not rising because flesh and blood can not inherit or enter into the kingdom.

When you go to sleep you dont really know the exact moment you went to sleep nether are you concious of how much time has gone by. Nor when you actually do awaken. It is a those you blinked you went to sleep you blink again your away in the twinkling of an eye. So shall it be for those that are asleep in Jesus Christ.. they will not be concious of how much time has actually passed wether it be one second or 100,000 years..

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

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#19

Post by IRQ Conflict » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:53 am

Hi Horace, not stalking you, I swear! :lol:
or if we believe that Jesus died and rose again
was Jesus just entertaining the worms for three days? Yes I love sarcasm. :wink:

But seriously, that scripture pertains to the physical resurrection of the saints, aka rapture.
If they are already in heaven from where are they rising. And we know that their bodies are not rising because flesh and blood can not inherit or enter into the kingdom.
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed
1 Corinthians 15:53-57

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus said to the thief on the cross who repented "Today (Present tense) you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). This thief was neither baptized nor partook of the Lords supper he believed and was promised to be with Jesus.
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Re:

#20

Post by jenna » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:04 pm

Swamper wrote:I don't believe that people who die immediately go to Heaven or Hell. I believe that no one will go to Heaven or Hell until Christ returns to Earth and everyone is judged. So what happens to the spirit after death, but before the final resurrection? I think it's possible for the spirit to remain on Earth until then, which would explain some sightings of ghosts (not all of them, of course, as some are just hoaxes, hallucinations, or possibly demonic spirits).
This is the closest thing to the truth as I know it. People who die aren't automatically sent to heaven or hell. However, their spirits do not remain on earth, either. They return to God until the resurrection. And no, they don't know anything (pleasure or torment) until they are resurrected. Psalms 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:3.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re:

#21

Post by Human » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:30 pm

Seraph wrote:If thats true then why would Jesus tell the thief on the cross that today you will be with me in paradise?
Original text had no punctuation marks.
"I tell you today, you will be with Me in paradise."

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#22

Post by jlay » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:02 pm

Then why did you add them?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#23

Post by Human » Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:51 pm

"I tell you today you will be with Me in paradise." is not a valid sentence. It's an ambiguous run-on. A comma must go before or after "today" in the translation to English. (in the original language it's fine without a comma, but the ambiguity exists and context must be used.)

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#24

Post by Seraph » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:50 pm

In most versions I've read, it reads as "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise".

Ha, never thought I would follow up on a thread from three years ago.
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#25

Post by Murray » Tue May 03, 2011 4:04 pm

At some point there will be a reward freind, and if we do "go to rest until the revalation" the wait will most likely seem instant to us,
in nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte

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Re: Re:

#26

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed May 04, 2011 7:14 am

Human wrote:
Seraph wrote:If thats true then why would Jesus tell the thief on the cross that today you will be with me in paradise?
Original text had no punctuation marks.
"I tell you today, you will be with Me in paradise."
The only place I have ever read it that way in the the JW's translation of the NWT.
It makes no sense in Koine greek though, why would Jesus have mentioned that today he was telling the thief anything, the thief knew exactly when Jesus was telling it to him, he was right there hearing it.
It is not constant in how Jesus spoke in that Gospel (lukes).
The greek "semeron" means :
1) this (very) day)

2) what has happened today

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#27

Post by kevdog19 » Sat May 28, 2011 3:40 pm

I believe the soul leaves the body after we die because of an out of body experience I had on the physical plane, flew around my room for a couple minutes then turned and saw myself and reenetered my body, but there is no cord you just know instinctually to return, maybe some people have a cord but I believe these people have restrictions in their thinking that prevents their souls from travelling as effectively as people without cords.
I also had a near death experience where it seemed like the world was made of shattered glass and I halucinated an ambulance coming downmy driveway and take my body while my soul remained on the couch, I then proceeded to see myself in the ambulance, at the hospitol, then finally at my funeral, but that was all in my minds eye, I never saw the light or anything like some people report but the experience ended right aftert being put in the ground so maybe it was coming and the experience ended prematurely.
This may also seem strange to some people, but I invoked Satan one time and he shot me in the eyes with laser beams, gave me a seizure and filled me with demonic energy. Lucifer expanded my brain, but I've also felt divine energy which occurs when your right brain communicates directly with the left side, since then I've left my evil ways and live in accordance with the dragon gods that live in the id. True enlightenment is a pathof the darkness and the light. The path back from evil is the path of illumination. So anyways I believe when we die first our souls and spirit remain on the physical plane until all the remaining physical particles of the soul dissolve and then we proceed to the astral plane where your soul like dillutes into it leaving the pure spirit which goes onto a like budic state where time and space have no meaning, until we're completely purified and then we return to the earth in a new body until the end of time in which case we go to gods heavenly kingdom or to hell depending upon our accumulated karma.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#28

Post by B. W. » Mon May 30, 2011 8:54 am

Again, this is drug talk...as well as shows you are being manipulated to follow a false path...

So you admit demonic entities entered into you; therefore, how many?

Kevin
kevdog19 wrote:I believe the soul leaves the body after we die because of an out of body experience I had on the physical plane, flew around my room for a couple minutes then turned and saw myself and reenetered my body, but there is no cord you just know instinctually to return, maybe some people have a cord but I believe these people have restrictions in their thinking that prevents their souls from travelling as effectively as people without cords.

I also had a near death experience where it seemed like the world was made of shattered glass and I halucinated an ambulance coming downmy driveway and take my body while my soul remained on the couch, I then proceeded to see myself in the ambulance, at the hospitol, then finally at my funeral, but that was all in my minds eye, I never saw the light or anything like some people report but the experience ended right aftert being put in the ground so maybe it was coming and the experience ended prematurely.

This may also seem strange to some people, but I invoked Satan one time and he shot me in the eyes with laser beams, gave me a seizure and filled me with demonic energy. Lucifer expanded my brain, but I've also felt divine energy which occurs when your right brain communicates directly with the left side, since then I've left my evil ways and live in accordance with the dragon gods that live in the id. True enlightenment is a pathof the darkness and the light. The path back from evil is the path of illumination. So anyways I believe when we die first our souls and spirit remain on the physical plane until all the remaining physical particles of the soul dissolve and then we proceed to the astral plane where your soul like dillutes into it leaving the pure spirit which goes onto a like budic state where time and space have no meaning, until we're completely purified and then we return to the earth in a new body until the end of time in which case we go to gods heavenly kingdom or to hell depending upon our accumulated karma.
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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#29

Post by kevdog19 » Mon May 30, 2011 12:27 pm

I've been demonically possesed on atleast 20 occasions.I've only seen the demon on 3 of those.

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Re: Where We Go When We Die?

#30

Post by Dallas » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:11 pm

Here's what I was told from multiple people from Church. In Heaven and Hell there is no such thing as Time. So by saying this once we die we automatically get judged, even though there has been a time laps, but we just haven't noticed it becuase there is no Time In God's "time."
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