Christian Universalism

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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FFC
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#61

Post by FFC » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:39 pm

puritan lad wrote:FFC,

Unfortunately, you seem to be the victim of the modern "gospel effeminate."

If you love a child who is standing in the path of a Mac Truck, you will not stand on the side of the road and offer him a piece of candy to get out of the way.

So it is with the cultists on his path to Hell, whether he believes it or not.

Jude 1:20-23
"But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. And have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh."

Besides, these cultists are not "misguided christians", but are of the Devil and are enemies of the faith, and thus should be treated as such, "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord." (1 Cor. 5:5). The Bible's warning is clear, from such turn away.

PL
PL, check out this passage in Jonah.
* the italisized words are mine

Jon 4:1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry (because God spared ninevah when they repented).


Jon 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, [was] not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou [art] a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

Jon 4:3 Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for [it is] better for me to die than to live.


Jon 4:4 Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry?

Jonah had a much different view of God than you seem to have, PL.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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#62

Post by puritan lad » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:35 am

No argument here FFC. I hope that R7-12 does repent. But his false teaching does need to be exposed for the sake of other readers.

Besides, I have yet to see a cultist repent by having believers cuddle up to them. They must be exposed and openly rebuked, that they may see the error in their ways. Hopefully then, they will be moved to repent.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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#63

Post by FFC » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:48 pm

puritan lad wrote:No argument here FFC. I hope that R7-12 does repent. But his false teaching does need to be exposed for the sake of other readers.

Besides, I have yet to see a cultist repent by having believers cuddle up to them. They must be exposed and openly rebuked, that they may see the error in their ways. Hopefully then, they will be moved to repent.
You're right, PL, the whole councel of God needs to be presented. Finding that firm but loving balance is hard sometimes. Wouldn't you agree? thankfully we have the Holy Spirit to giude us in these matters.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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#64

Post by puritan lad » Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:57 pm

Yes. There are times when a gentle nudge is needed. However, there are also times that "tough love" is needed, and this is especially true of cultists who want to spread their heresies among the sheep. Those who love God will accept the rebuke.

Proverbs 15:31
"The ear that hears the rebukes of life Will abide among the wise."

My wife cringes when Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door. I gladly invite them in as long as I'm home provided that they speak only to me and not to my wife and kids. They usually don't stay long. :lol:

God Bless,

PL
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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#65

Post by FFC » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:59 pm

My wife cringes when Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door. I gladly invite them in as long as I'm home provided that they speak only to me and not to my wife and kids. They usually don't stay long. :lol:
:lol: I have no doubt that they cringed too.

I invited Mormons into my house years ago, it was right after God saved me. I knew very little of what I believed at the time, but I had just read up on Mormons and what they believe and God gave me the scriptures to counter their main points of error. When they asked me to pray at the end, I prayed that God would enable them to see the truth so that they could be saved.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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#66

Post by Bernie » Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:36 pm

Hello Puritan lad,

Been away from the thread for a while. Let's test your ideas....
Let him who argues use scripture, without making it "spiritual" to suit their own ends, for their spirit is foul.
There are many who fear the spiritual as you do, and for good reason. The fire of God is within it and we love our darkness (Jn 3:19). Yet one wonders how it is you're able to discern the foulness of another's spirit? Is your comment, "there is no such thing as a Christian Universalist. One is either a Christian or a Universalist, but cannot be both" of the Spirit of Christ? Did the Lord teach you this great truth, or did the Holy Spirit impart this knowledge to you? Thank God He hasn't placed the destiny of human souls in your hands!
Can anyone rightly suggest that parental discipline can rescue a child from the grave?
Are you serious?....
"....God....gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist." (Rom 4:17) Read Ezek 37, too. Don't you read the Bible?

You try to make a case for eternal punishment. Let's take a look at your passages....

You claim hell is everlasting.....
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power....yet this is not what this passage says. It says the wicked pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, not that their punishment is everlasting. You infer by virtue of a traditional interpretive scheme that it is suffering in hell that is eternal, but that is not what this passage states. Once "eternal destruction" is understood--that the stain of falsity [evil] is destined to be removed from human spirit and all creation FOREVER, it should be clear to see that those who love God should long for this eternal destruction, for out of its fires comes the purity of literal righteousness.

You claim hell is eternal....
Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.....and again, you assign the traditional interpretation. Jude 1:7 actually says only that some suffer the punishment of eternal fire. This is a far cry from saying punishment in hell is forever. I believe the eternal fire to be the pure, holy righteousness of God [study the OT], which is fire to the kindling of human evil, and this does not affect my universalism one iota.

You claim hell is everlasting punishment....
Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."....but completely ignore the fact that in this passage the Lord slips into esoteric/spiritual/figurative language starting at v. 32 and onward, where He provides in powerful allegory the methodology of the removal of evil [falsity] from all the nations. Sheep and goats is spiritual language--the language which conveys the deeper truths you hate--describing those properties (sheep=good or truth; goats=evil or falsity) which will be separated from human spirit in the Holy Fire of God's presence. Jesus testifies to the same principle in the parable of the wheat [truth] and tares [falsity]. And Paul tells exactly the same story in 1Cor 3:11-15:

"For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."


Tell me, PL, do you really believe all the Scripture, or do you just mouth the words like the pretenders?......".....with God all things are possible." (Mat 19:26) Do you believe this?

The Lord gives a hint of the methodology of salvation and how v. 26 can be true in its universal sense in v. 24 "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." At the time He made this statement, His hearers were naturally astonished....their science at the time was not refined enough for them to realize that all material reality is composed of much smaller constituent components...atoms, for example. Today we know that a camel could easily pass through the eye of a needle if we knew how to reduce it to its molecular or even cellular level. Of course we can't....but with God all things are possible. When God's wrath is redirected from particular to universal.....i.e. from individual to one's spiritual components (goats, tares, sheep, wheat, etc.)....then both death and rebirth, destruction and new life, heaven and hell are orchestrated to every created intellect on earth. You, like all traditionalists, are only able to see God's wrath and blessings applied to particulars...and thus you miss the more significant, deeper level of meaning in the Scriptures: God's wrath is directed to essence in order to bless the organism.

I noted in an earlier post in this thread the major discrepancy of the traditional view of salvation using the example of God's walk with Abram on the road to Sodom. Can you refute this common sense example? No one else seems to have been able, either here or on other boards, but Puritan Lad appears to be full of the fire and zeal of his beliefs and should certainly have a proper answer. Have at it.

Now, in order to keep this thread manageable, let me throw out this challenge: You claim to contend only for the truth of Scripture...concentrate on this thread and show me how I violate the Bible in what I've posted, or in any of my beliefs. Let's see if you're as deeply embedded in God's truth as you suppose. Looking forward to your response.

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#67

Post by puritan lad » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:20 am

There are many who fear the spiritual as you do, and for good reason. The fire of God is within it and we love our darkness (Jn 3:19). Yet one wonders how it is you're able to discern the foulness of another's spirit? Is your comment, "there is no such thing as a Christian Universalist. One is either a Christian or a Universalist, but cannot be both" of the Spirit of Christ? Did the Lord teach you this great truth, or did the Holy Spirit impart this knowledge to you? Thank God He hasn't placed the destiny of human souls in your hands!
We are called to test the “spirits” (1 John 4:1), and we do so by “examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things are so". (Acts 17:11). Universalism doesn't pass the smell test. It is a lie, and we know who the father of lies is (John 8:44).
You try to make a case for eternal punishment. Let's take a look at your passages....

You claim hell is everlasting.....
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power....yet this is not what this passage says. It says the wicked pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, not that their punishment is everlasting. You infer by virtue of a traditional interpretive scheme that it is suffering in hell that is eternal, but that is not what this passage states. Once "eternal destruction" is understood--that the stain of falsity [evil] is destined to be removed from human spirit and all creation FOREVER, it should be clear to see that those who love God should long for this eternal destruction, for out of its fires comes the purity of literal righteousness.
Putting it politely, this is nonsense. There is absolutely nothing in this passage (or anywhere else) to suggest that “the stain of falsity [evil] is destined to be removed from human spirit and all creation FOREVER”. In fact, we have testimony quite to the contrary, throughout the scriptures, as I have and will elaborate on.
You claim hell is eternal....
Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.....and again, you assign the traditional interpretation. Jude 1:7 actually says only that some suffer the punishment of eternal fire. This is a far cry from saying punishment in hell is forever. I believe the eternal fire to be the pure, holy righteousness of God [study the OT], which is fire to the kindling of human evil, and this does not affect my universalism one iota.
I assign the plain interpretation, especially backed up by the fact that “that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Cor. 6:9-10). Catch that Bernie. They will have no part in the kingdom of God. Not now, not ever. Bernie, heed Paul's warning and “do not be deceived”. Again, no one reading Jude 1:7 (or any scripture for that matter, would ever conclude that the men of Sodom and Gomorrah are heavenbound.
You claim hell is everlasting punishment....
Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."....but completely ignore the fact that in this passage the Lord slips into esoteric/spiritual/figurative language starting at v. 32 and onward, where He provides in powerful allegory the methodology of the removal of evil [falsity] from all the nations. Sheep and goats is spiritual language--the language which conveys the deeper truths you hate--describing those properties (sheep=good or truth; goats=evil or falsity) which will be separated from human spirit in the Holy Fire of God's presence. Jesus testifies to the same principle in the parable of the wheat [truth] and tares [falsity]. And Paul tells exactly the same story in 1Cor 3:11-15:

"For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."

Tell me, PL, do you really believe all the Scripture, or do you just mouth the words like the pretenders?......".....with God all things are possible." (Mat 19:26) Do you believe this?
Tell me dear cult member, where did either Paul or Jesus mention anything about eternal punishment being equivalent to a purifying fire. God punishment on the wicked is not "purifying" or reformatory in any way. It is retributive, described as "vengeance", "wrath", and "fury". Jesus said it was “eternal punishment”. If this is “esoteric/spiritual/figurative language”, then what about the "eternal life" of the believer? Maybe you should heed Jesus' clear warnings instead of trying to reinterpret the Bible to support your damnable heresies.
God's wrath is directed to essence in order to bless the organism.

This would be funny if you didn't actually believe it. In this case, maybe we should all forsake the faith and go to Hell so we can obtain part of that "blessing". Of course, Jesus Christ was totally unaware of any future blessing upon Judas Iscariot.

Matthew 26:24
“The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

For Jesus to have made such a statement, while at the same time allegedly knowing that Judas would eventually be happy and holy in heaven, would have made Jesus more than a mere sensationalist. It would have made Him a liar (unless you hold that non-existence is better than heaven). Similar charges could be made to Him for threatening His audience with “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41).

The fact is that it is not God's plan to purge evil from all of creation, for we know that Hell is eternal, and that “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night…” (Rev. 14:11). It is God's plan to glorify Himself. He gets glory out of purging wickedness from the saints, and He gets glory out of the destruction of the wicked. In either case, He is glorified.

By the way. I don't think you ever answered my original question. Will Satan eventually end up in Heaven?
I noted in an earlier post in this thread the major discrepancy of the traditional view of salvation using the example of God's walk with Abram on the road to Sodom. Can you refute this common sense example? No one else seems to have been able, either here or on other boards, but Puritan Lad appears to be full of the fire and zeal of his beliefs and should certainly have a proper answer. Have at it.
You have to take that up with the Arminians. Who says that there is any good residing in any individual? Certainly not the Bible. That, however, is another debate that I am currently involved in, just not as heretical as yours.
Now, in order to keep this thread manageable, let me throw out this challenge: You claim to contend only for the truth of Scripture...concentrate on this thread and show me how I violate the Bible in what I've posted, or in any of my beliefs. Let's see if you're as deeply embedded in God's truth as you suppose. Looking forward to your response.
How have you violated the Bible? You have done your best to explain it away, “spiritualizing” certain passages that you don't like (with no basis in truth whatsoever), in a vain attempt to support your foolish nonsense. There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures, figurative or otherwise, that supports universalism. (In fact, you could make a better case for annihilationism, though that is another heresy which is easy to disprove as well.)

I would suggest that you read the words of the damned soul in Luke 16:24, 27-28. May his pitiful cries pierce your flinty heart, and cause you to repent of your heresies and run to Christ.

PL
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#68

Post by puritan lad » Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:39 am

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."....but completely ignore the fact that in this passage the Lord slips into esoteric/spiritual/figurative language starting at v. 32 and onward, where He provides in powerful allegory the methodology of the removal of evil [falsity] from all the nations. Sheep and goats is spiritual language--the language which conveys the deeper truths you hate--describing those properties (sheep=good or truth; goats=evil or falsity) which will be separated from human spirit in the Holy Fire of God's presence. Jesus testifies to the same principle in the parable of the wheat [truth] and tares [falsity]. And Paul tells exactly the same story in 1Cor 3:11-15:
Let's interpret the Sheep/Goats and Wheat/Tares Parables the way the Bible interprets them, without using your own private interpretations (a practice forbidden in the Scriptures — 2 Peter 1:20-21).

Matthew 13:38
“The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,"

The Wheat and Tares refer to people (children, sons), not “deeper truths.. wheat [truth] and tares [falsity].”

Matthew 25:32
“Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

Again, the Sheep and goats are People, not “deeper truths you hate--describing those properties (sheep=good or truth; goats=evil or falsity)”.

It is the Goats (People) who “will go away into eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46). It is the tares (the sons of the evil one — people) who will be “bound up in bundles to be burned” (Matthew 13:30) "with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:12).

Bernie, you are adding to the Word of God, privately interpreting a parable that Christ has clearly interpreted for us. Take Heed, as you are currently approaching the left hand of Christ.

PL
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#69

Post by Bernie » Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:53 pm

Hello PL,

No I'm not 'adding' to the word of God but interpreting it as the Spirit has led me. You are most likely mistaking me for those often called 'exessive spiritualizers', who impose meaning that seems for the most part to have little or no discernable association with truth.. As we'll see shortly, what I contend for has an amazing coherence and correspondence with both Testaments of the Bible, joining them together in an orderly, logical, and aesthetically consistent pattern that only a unity of truth can achieve.

Like most traditionalists, you overlook the Lord's methodology in supposing that His teaching to the disciples in Mat 13:38 is the sum total of meaning to the parable. Spiritual men have noted since early Christianity that God has placed a layering of meaning in Scripture. The Bible is a spiritual book, to be mined for its riches, not controlled as harsh literalists try to do.

The structure of spiritual meaning is the use of the literal or particular to convey the universal/spiritual. A good example of this is Mat 15:15-20:

“And Peter answered and said to Him, 'Explain the parable to us.' And He said, 'Are you still lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
"'But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.'"

The apostles were babes; the Lord fed them milk as re vv. 15-16. The structure of Jesus' teachings—which structure can be discerned in virtually all He taught in the Gospels—can be seen clearly here. He first makes the distinction between the material and spiritual, noting (v. 17) that food is merely matter that passes through the digestive system and is eliminated, possessing no prescriptive or moral value in itself. He then points to the inner man, spiritual essence, to teach that it is from this realm that true evil arises and makes itself manifest in time and space. The common conveyance of spiritual meaning is by the use of figurative language….metaphor, simile, parable, allegory, poetry. That universals emerge from particulars is attributable only to human intellect… spirit energizes matter to produce intellect, which is a spiritual organ. The establishment of types, kinds, genera, classes, use of figurative language, etc. is a distinctly spiritual power. This is why large portions of the Old Testament, especially those written by men filled with the Holy Spirit, are highly allegorical. Where Spirit intercedes, allegory is necessary because we humans who wallow mostly in the darkness of the material (time and space) have only a tiny percentage of our languge dedicated to spiritually intuited vernacular….spirit, eternality, morality, omniscience, etc.

Jesus, after teaching that spatiotemporal reality has no correspondence to evil (v. 17), goes on to use the figurative language of metaphor—comparing spirit to “heart” (v. 19)—to show that evil has its basis in universal essence, not in material expression. Paul confirmed this distinction using different words when he wrote, “….the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2Cor 3:6), and, “….he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God” (Rom 2:29). This is the ordering of prescriptive meaning.

Don't take my word for it. Let's look to the Scriptures to see if this coherent structure exists….

"and say to the land of Israel, `Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I am against you, and I will draw My sword out of its sheath and cut off both righteous and wicked from you. Because I will cut off both righteous and wicked from you, therefore My sword shall go out of its sheath against all flesh from south to north, that all flesh may know that I, the LORD, have drawn My sword out of its sheath; it shall not return anymore."' (Ezek 21:3-5)

In your literalizing will you assign only an historical meaning to this passage—the coming of Nebuchadnezzar? Most literalists do, dishonoring God by turning His holy word into a mere textbook of history. In fact, look at the spiritual surgery, the cutting off of the wicked (goats; tares) from the righteous (sheep; wheat). Truth corresponds with truth. What do you think the Spirit prompted Isaiah to speak of when He prophecied, “Thus says the LORD, "As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, 'Do not destroy it, for there is benefit in it,' So I will act on behalf of My servants In order not to destroy all of them. And I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, And an heir of My mountains from Judah; Even My chosen ones shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there” (Isa 65:8-9)? Do you suppose this is about farming grapes? That's the literal reading. All these verses speak to a 'fragmented' spirit, human spirit infused with the property of multiple elements, falsity and truth (evil/good).

Now compare this with 1Cor 3:11-15….Paul teaches the same thing, the principle of a multiplicity of elements both good [gold, silver, precious stones] and evil (wood hay straw). Only a blind man can miss the unity of significance in both Testaments….or a mind in darkness (Jn 3:19). The cluster (a multiplicity) is human spirit, and there is benefit in it (see Jn 1:9; it's already been placed there by a loving God). The entire message of salvation in the Bible is here, the bringing forth of offspring (new life) from death.

You seem unable to see that the shifting from particular [individual] to essence [spirit] in the application of God's wrath is not only in perfect harmony with the dualistic structure of God's creation, but accords perfectly with the systematic organiztion of the entire Bible. The message is the same. Unity, coherence, accord, consensus, harmony, etc. are associated with truth.

"Go up through her vine rows and destroy, But do not execute a complete destruction; Strip away her branches, For they are not the LORD'S. For the house of Israel and the house of Judah Have dealt very treacherously with Me," declares the LORD” (Jer 5:10-11). Jesus likewise reinformced the metaphor of branches being thrown away and burned in Jn 15:6. This is sanctification. The arrogance of organized Christianity (NOT the true church) is such that we read the Bible and wonder at the terrible evil of those Jews…never realizing the spiritual power of God's word, that in them He is showing each and every human being his or her own heart. The Jews were merely players on a stage. God could have chosen any nation on earth represent the apostacy of His people because we are all evil together. Are you beginning to feel the fires of hell on your own soul, PL? I do. Paul did. He noted, “….I die daily” (1Cor 15:31), and if you'll study Jn 15:1-6 you might be able to figure out how each one of us dies daily. Those who in great self-piety throw God's hell and torment around like free balls at a dunk tank stand in dange of the Lord's fiery wrath themselves, as He inspired Isaiah to incite, "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts, A people who continually provoke Me to My face, Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks; Who sit among graves, and spend the night in secret places; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots.
"Who say, 'Keep to yourself, do not come near me, For I am holier than you!' These are smoke in My nostrils, A fire that burns all the day. Behold, it is written before Me, I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will even repay into their bosom”
(Isa 65:2-6),

I looked up Mat 25:32 in four versions (NASB, NKJ, AV, Young's Literal) and not one contained the word “people” as you posted. Where do you quote from?

Lest you think this is contrived, let's look at a type in the Exodus which God placed there for us to examine regarding the concept of human spirit as fragmented. Israel as a nation in the Exodus was 600,000 strong, but imagine this nation as a single individual made up of many parts. God shows here how He commits to us the spiritual surgery conveyed in Ezek 21:2-5.

Re Israel as an individual, at first God was patient with his grumbling and complaining. Israel complained of lack of water in (Ex 15) and God provided it. He complained of lack of food and God provided quail and manna (Ex. 16), Israel bewailed a scarcity of water again (chapter 16). God instructed Moses to strike the rock at Meribah (17:6) and water flowed from it. Yet even these miracles failed to convince Israel to listen to God's voice, to believe and obey him. Correspondingly, we often see God's works around us and still refuse to believe. This inclination to unbelief continued in humanity through history to those who refused to believe even though they saw Christ's miracles. It continues to each succeeding generation, to you and I today.

Because of Israel's unbelief and complaining, “...the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp.” (Num 11:1) Notice that Scripture says of Israel, “And the rabble who were among them had greedy desires; and also the sons of Israel wept again and said, "Who will give us meat to eat? We remember the fish which we used to eat free in Egypt, the cucumbers and the melons and the leeks and the onions and the garlic, but now our appetite is gone. There is nothing at all to look at except this manna." (Num 11:4-6, my emph.). We all have within our spirit a “rabble” (collection or mixed multitude; falsity amidst the truth, goats among sheep, tares in the wheat) which influences the mind to hate the light of truth, and induces bitter complaint about His treatment of us when we are brought into life's wilderness and its many tribulations. Just as the rabble incited Israel to complaining and unbelief in the Exodus, so does our own “spiritual rabble” produce in intellect the same traits of rebelliousness and doubt in us. This is our spiritual pathology. The whole person is affected by his or her constituent spiritual components.

This principle of separation of falsity from human spirit can be clearly seen in God's dealing with Israel in his (and our) trials in the wilderness. Moses plays the part of Christ in this example, who alone is our high priest before God (Ex 24:1-2, Heb 2:17, 3:1, 7:26, 8:1). When He was gone for forty days and nights (Ex 24:18), Israel quickly forgot God and fashioned an idol, a golden calf, and worshipped it (Ex 32:1-6). God, seeing this continued unfaithfulness, tells Moses that He will destroy Israel and make of him a great nation instead (vv. 9-10). Moses as Christ (v. 30) intercedes (vv. 11-14). Moses/Christ saved Israel from total destruction, yet 3000 within him died as a result of this idolatry (vv. 25-28). Once more the pattern of “spiritual dissection” that takes place in our soul unfolds. Those defiant, rebellious parts, like a cancer, are brought out into the open in “wilderness affliction,” cut off and destroyed. This is sanctification at work.

Notice God's decree concerning those who sin against Him: “And the Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.” (Ex 32:33) This blotting out of God's “book” was decreed against the 'evil portions' of Israel in the wilderness, and this principle is orchestrated in the spirit of every human being. The death deserved by the individual is transferred from particular reality to the source of evil content within that individual's incorporeal, universal essence. We are simultaneously, at any given moment, both "in" and "out" of the book of life fractionally.

PL, I submit that your insistence on God's destroying particular human beings is so wrought with problems—virtually all of which are corrected in the rational esoteric view I present—that the burden is heavy upon you to defend your position. I believe I've shown that my view correlates strongly to the dualistic structure God designed into both Testaments of the Bible and all creation, and we haven't yet begun to scratch the surface. I also notice that you've failed completely to adequately answer the difficulties I posed in earlier posts. You seem adept at posting the opinions of other men….I'm curious to see if you're able to provide a reasoned response of your own. I'm not your enemy, as I recognize you as a brother in Christ, but you have denounced me as a non-Christian heretic. I await your response. Show me my heresy.

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#70

Post by puritan lad » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:18 am

No I'm not 'adding' to the word of God but interpreting it as the Spirit has led me.
No doubt about this. Unfortunately, you are following the wrong Spirit.
Like most traditionalists, you overlook the Lord's methodology in supposing that His teaching to the disciples in Mat 13:38 is the sum total of meaning to the parable. Spiritual men have noted since early Christianity that God has placed a layering of meaning in Scripture. The Bible is a spiritual book, to be mined for its riches, not controlled as harsh literalists try to do.
No argument here. However, you are clearly over-Spiritualizing the Book in order to promote your heresy. There is nothing in Scripture, anyplace, anytime, to support universalism. It is a heresy that you dreamed up following the heresies of Origen. You then must “interpret” the Bible in your own personal way to support this nonsense, a practice that I've already shown to be forbidden in Scripture. You have no right to your private interpretations. The Bible is not just allegory, but is literal in many cases. The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment has ALWAYS been understood as literal. There is no evidence whatsoever to support any other doctrine. The Doctrine was used by Jesus and His Apostles to “persuade” men.
Jesus, after teaching that spatiotemporal reality has no correspondence to evil (v. 17), goes on to use the figurative language of metaphor—comparing spirit to “heart” (v. 19)—to show that evil has its basis in universal essence, not in material expression. Paul confirmed this distinction using different words when he wrote, “….the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2Cor 3:6), and, “….he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God” (Rom 2:29). This is the ordering of prescriptive meaning.
Jesus said that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4). The Word and the Spirit cannot be separated. The Word is eternal, and is the method by which we test the Spirits. Your Spirit of Universalism fails the test.
Don't take my word for it. Let's look to the Scriptures to see if this coherent structure exists…

"and say to the land of Israel, `Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I am against you, and I will draw My sword out of its sheath and cut off both righteous and wicked from you. Because I will cut off both righteous and wicked from you, therefore My sword shall go out of its sheath against all flesh from south to north, that all flesh may know that I, the LORD, have drawn My sword out of its sheath; it shall not return anymore."' (Ezek 21:3-5)

In your literalizing will you assign only an historical meaning to this passage—the coming of Nebuchadnezzar? Most literalists do, dishonoring God by turning His holy word into a mere textbook of history.
Not so. This “history” is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness…” (2 Tim. 3:16). Your excessive allegory makes the doctrine meaningless, instruction in righteousness worthless, and Jesus clear warnings of eternal punishment a melodrama. It enables you to your own “private interpretation”, despite the clear warnings otherwise. Therefore it is correctly written of universalists and other cultists, that “their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools,” (Romans 1:21-22). They somehow think that the unrighteous will eventually inherit the kingdom of God, to which Paul warns, “Do not be deceived”. (1 Cor. 6:9-10).
"Go up through her vine rows and destroy, But do not execute a complete destruction; Strip away her branches, For they are not the LORD'S. For the house of Israel and the house of Judah Have dealt very treacherously with Me," declares the LORD” (Jer 5:10-11). Jesus likewise reinformced the metaphor of branches being thrown away and burned in Jn 15:6. This is sanctification.
Now that is ridiculous. John 15:6 is sanctification??? I would love to put that to a vote. No one who can read at a child's level would ever come to such a conclusion, unless he was being led by some strange spirit, like universalism.
Are you beginning to feel the fires of hell on your own soul, PL? I do. Paul did. He noted, “….I die daily” (1Cor 15:31).
I don't think Paul ever felt the fires of Hell, but the rich man in Luke 16 certainly did. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and you lack both.

Luke 12:4-5
“I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!"

Bernie, you know nothing of the fires of Hell, yet. Indeed, unless you fear Him and repent of your heresies, you will soon enough.
I looked up Mat 25:32 in four versions (NASB, NKJ, AV, Young's Literal) and not one contained the word “people” as you posted. Where do you quote from?
I used the ESV in this case, but it really doesn't matter. The greek word “ethnos” (nations) always refers to people, and “autos” used in conjection with “ethnos” clearly denotes people. The bottom line is that the Bible itself refutes your “spiritual” interpretation, clearly showing that it is people who will be cast into unquenchable fire, not some deeper truth of “evil/falsity”.
Notice God's decree concerning those who sin against Him: “And the Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.” (Ex 32:33) This blotting out of God's “book” was decreed against the 'evil portions' of Israel in the wilderness, and this principle is orchestrated in the spirit of every human being. The death deserved by the individual is transferred from particular reality to the source of evil content within that individual's incorporeal, universal essence. We are simultaneously, at any given moment, both "in" and "out" of the book of life fractionally.
The Bible disagrees.

Rev 20:13-15
“And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.”

The Second Death is real Bernie. Pharaoh, Saul, the Rich man, Judas, and the Pharisees all face it. So will “all liars”, like universalists (Rev. 21:8).
PL, I submit that your insistence on God's destroying particular human beings is so wrought with problems—virtually all of which are corrected in the rational esoteric view I present—that the burden is heavy upon you to defend your position. I believe I've shown that my view correlates strongly to the dualistic structure God designed into both Testaments of the Bible and all creation, and we haven't yet begun to scratch the surface. I also notice that you've failed completely to adequately answer the difficulties I posed in earlier posts. You seem adept at posting the opinions of other men….I'm curious to see if you're able to provide a reasoned response of your own. I'm not your enemy, as I recognize you as a brother in Christ, but you have denounced me as a non-Christian heretic. I await your response. Show me my heresy.
Opinions of other men? I have used dozens of Scriptures, which you simply try to explain away by calling them “spiritual” (and there is many more where they caem from). Well, they are definitely Spiritual, and they mean what they say. Your “rational esoteric view” is not rational, but renders the majority of Scripture meaningless, open to whatever interpretation one may desire.

Your heresy is that you do not believe Jesus Christ when he warns us to fear Hell, to even subject ourselves to bodily mutilation if necessary to avoid it's flames. You do not believe that Judas would have been better off not to have been born than to have gone into his own place in perdition. You obviously think that Jesus was blowing allegorical smoke when He threatened his hearers with "everlasting punishment", and "eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels". In short, you do not believe, period. (My guess is that this isn't the only heresy you hold to, but it's enough for now).

And you are correct that you are not my brother in Christ, but a liar and a wolf that is used of the devil to lead sheep astray. My prayer for you is that you repent of this wickedness before your errors are revealed to you in eternity, for you will know, one way or another, soon enough. In any case, your blood will not be on my hands.

PL
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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#71

Post by Bernie » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:15 pm

Hello PL,

Last night I missed your initial post. I went immediately to the last post in the thread and didn't find your earlier entry till this morning. Here's my response to your longer post above…..
We are called to test the “spirits” (1 John 4:1), and we do so by “examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things are so". (Acts 17:11). Universalism doesn't pass the smell test. It is a lie, and we know who the father of lies is (John 8:44).
Let's call this 'Example One' [E1]. E1 demonstrates a very common specimen of irrelevant 'point scoring', i.e., making a statement that some view or concept is false without presenting a shred of significant evidence to sustain the charge. E1 is mere opinion, and opinion carries no actual weight in an intelligent discussion, even though its practitioners often use references (as re the Scripture quotes above) that are inevitably also irrelevant to meaningful debate. I'm not necessarily dissing you, PL, as virtually everyone who posts to theology boards, including me, uses this tactic at one time or another. Let's try to avoid it and keep the debate intelligent, intellectually stimulating and on-track, okay?
Putting it politely, this is nonsense. There is absolutely nothing in this passage (or anywhere else) to suggest that “the stain of falsity [evil] is destined to be removed from human spirit and all creation FOREVER”. In fact, we have testimony quite to the contrary, throughout the scriptures, as I have and will elaborate on.
“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
“The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, The last enemy that will be abolished is death.”
(1Cor 15:22-28).

“And just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 'O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?'"
(1Cor15:49-55)

"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Mat 5:48).

“….when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away” (1Cor 13:10).

Use a dictionary if necessary to find the proper association of words and phrases such as:
* all shall be made alive [life/true/perfect/holy, etc. =one set of associated signifiers. death/false/corrupt/unrighteous, etc. is an opposite set of associated signifiers. The former stand in tension and resistance to the latter, and vice versa]
* He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. [indicating the elimination of all untruth/falsity. falsity, introduced by Adam's sin into creation, is the ultimate enemy of God]
* The last enemy that will be abolished is death. [death is caused by and corresponds closely to falsity/evil]
* this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. [falsity is that which denies a thing its perfection; when a thing is purely true, it is perfect…Adam's and creation's original state]
* you are to be perfect [true=perfection; false=imperfection]
* when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away

I believe you stand corrected.

In response to my pointing out that Jude 1:7 actually says that some suffer the punishment of eternal fire, you posted:
I assign the plain interpretation, especially backed up by the fact that “that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Plain interpretation? There is no plain interpretation to assign, PL. In fact, you twist Jude 1:7 and other Scriptures to mean what you want them to say. In fact, you attempted to use this as a 'proof' that hell is eternal and the passage says no such thing! I thought it was only we universalists who twisted Scripture?
Tell me dear cult member, where did either Paul or Jesus mention anything about eternal punishment being equivalent to a purifying fire. God punishment on the wicked is not "purifying" or reformatory in any way. It is retributive, described as "vengeance", "wrath", and "fury". Jesus said it was “eternal punishment”. If this is “esoteric/spiritual/figurative language”, then what about the "eternal life" of the believer?
"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. And He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD, as in the days of old and as in former years” (Mal 3:2-4). [Purification by fire equals cleansing.]

"Thus says the LORD, "As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, 'Do not destroy it, for there is benefit in it,' So I will act on behalf of My servants In order not to destroy all of them. And I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, And an heir of My mountains from Judah; Even My chosen ones shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there” (Isa 65:8-9) [will not destroy all of them refers in its deeper sense to elements within every human spirit. This is spiritual language that may be interpreted with perfect consistency throughout the entire Bible. Consistency and coherence are evidences of truth]

“I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1Cor 5:5). [Salvation accomplished specifically in the midst of destruction, exactly to the contrary of what you've claimed, PL]

"For everyone will be salted with fire” (Mark 9:49). [what purpose could be served by literally everyone being salted with fire if fire brings only the destruction of individuals, PL? Does this mean everyone will be destroyed in your theology?]

"As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you. And I shall bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out; and I shall bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I shall enter into judgment with you face to face.
"As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord GOD. And I shall make you pass under the rod, and I shall bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I shall purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I shall bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the LORD. As for you, O house of Israel," thus says the Lord GOD, "Go, serve everyone his idols; but later, you will surely listen to Me, and My holy name you will profane no longer with your gifts and with your idols.
"For on My holy mountain, on the high mountain of Israel," declares the Lord GOD, "there the whole house of Israel, all of them, will serve Me in the land; there I shall accept them, and there I shall seek your contributions and the choicest of your gifts, with all your holy things. As a soothing aroma I shall accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered; and I shall prove Myself holy among you in the sight of the nations. And you will know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the land which I swore to give to your forefathers.
And there you will remember your ways and all your deeds, with which you have defiled yourselves; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for all the evil things that you have done. Then you will know that I am the LORD when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your evil ways or according to your corrupt deeds, O house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD'"
(Ezek 20:33-44)
[Yes, I know this was a long one…but it succinctly demolishes your statement, “where did either Paul or Jesus mention anything about eternal punishment being equivalent to a purifying fire. God punishment on the wicked is not "purifying" or reformatory in any way. It is retributive, described as "vengeance", "wrath", and "fury"]
Of course, Jesus Christ was totally unaware of any future blessing upon Judas Iscariot.

Prove it. [hint: Mat 26:24 is completely inadequate to arrive at the conclusion that future blessing was not available to Judas Iscariot. You'll have to do better than this.]
By the way. I don't think you ever answered my original question. Will Satan eventually end up in Heaven?
I don't know.


In response to my challenge to you to refute the principle God established with Abram that He would not destroy a whole if there were any good in it, you posted….
You have to take that up with the Arminians.
Actually, this principle has nothing whatever to do with the Calvinist/Arminian debate. You're avoiding my challenge. Again, I want you to show me how this principle is wrong.
Who says that there is any good residing in any individual? Certainly not the Bible.
“There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man” (Jn 1:9)
“In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord” (Luke 1:5-6) [I suspect you're trying to impose Mark 10:18 as a blanket concept on all humanity. Actually, Jesus states in this verse that only God is wholly true or literally perfect and good. Godly illumination is a form of good, and it's found in all men along with the falsity of evil in some ratio.

The Calvinist error of applying regeneration wholly to the saved and not at all to the unsaved is one of the most irrational and easily disproved doctrines I've found. Unfortunately, many Arminians have also adopted this error. As to your inferring that there's no good in a human, a spirit/mind totally deprived of spiritual life can only equate to total chaos and death. In both the soul completely regenerate and completely unregenerate, there could be no possibility of moral choice. Pure truth knows nothing of morality by virtue of its perfection; when only truth and good exist, there's no point of reference to evil. Likewise, the soul/mind totally darkened would have no moral responsibility…but this is a moot point, because, as stated earlier, total falsity ultimately corresponds only to total chaos and destruction.

Earlier in this thread I think I provided a a link to my refutation of the error of whole and instantaneous regeneration in a critique of A.W. Pink. No one has been able to refute it to date. If you're able, take a shot at it. Logically, there has to be some ratio of both good and evil in every human being in order for moral precept to bear upon the mind…and literally every human being recognizes normative rules on some level.
The fact is that it is not God's plan to purge evil from all of creation
This has been refuted above.
How have you violated the Bible? You have done your best to explain it away, “spiritualizing” certain passages that you don't like (with no basis in truth whatsoever), in a vain attempt to support your foolish nonsense. There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures, figurative or otherwise, that supports universalism. (In fact, you could make a better case for annihilationism, though that is another heresy which is easy to disprove as well.)
Please refer to Example One in the beginning of this post and try again. I've responded to your charges with what I believe to be well reasoned responses.

Your opinions are worthless unless you're able to substantiate them, PL. If the "heresies" you stand against are so easy to disprove, why are you currently failing miserably?[/quote]

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#72

Post by Bernie » Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:46 pm

you are clearly over-Spiritualizing the Book in order to promote your heresy. There is nothing in Scripture, anyplace, anytime, to support universalism. It is a heresy that you dreamed up following the heresies of Origen. You then must “interpret” the Bible in your own personal way to support this nonsense, a practice that I've already shown to be forbidden in Scripture. You have no right to your private interpretations. The Bible is not just allegory, but is literal in many cases. The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment has ALWAYS been understood as literal. There is no evidence whatsoever to support any other doctrine. The Doctrine was used by Jesus and His Apostles to “persuade” men.
Jesus said that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4). The Word and the Spirit cannot be separated. The Word is eternal, and is the method by which we test the Spirits. Your Spirit of Universalism fails the test.
Your excessive allegory makes the doctrine meaningless, instruction in righteousness worthless, and Jesus clear warnings of eternal punishment a melodrama. It enables you to your own “private interpretation”, despite the clear warnings otherwise. Therefore it is correctly written of universalists and other cultists, that “their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools,” (Romans 1:21-22). They somehow think that the unrighteous will eventually inherit the kingdom of God, to which Paul warns, “Do not be deceived”. (1 Cor. 6:9-10).
Now that is ridiculous. John 15:6 is sanctification??? I would love to put that to a vote. No one who can read at a child's level would ever come to such a conclusion, unless he was being led by some strange spirit, like universalism.
I don't think Paul ever felt the fires of Hell, but the rich man in Luke 16 certainly did. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and you lack both.
Bernie, you know nothing of the fires of Hell, yet. Indeed, unless you fear Him and repent of your heresies, you will soon enough.
I used the ESV in this case, but it really doesn't matter. The greek word “ethnos” (nations) always refers to people, and “autos” used in conjection with “ethnos” clearly denotes people. The bottom line is that the Bible itself refutes your “spiritual” interpretation, clearly showing that it is people who will be cast into unquenchable fire, not some deeper truth of “evil/falsity”.
The Second Death is real Bernie. Pharaoh, Saul, the Rich man, Judas, and the Pharisees all face it. So will “all liars”, like universalists (Rev. 21:8).
Your “rational esoteric view” is not rational, but renders the majority of Scripture meaningless, open to whatever interpretation one may desire.
Your heresy is that you do not believe Jesus Christ when he warns us to fear Hell, to even subject ourselves to bodily mutilation if necessary to avoid it's flames. You do not believe that Judas would have been better off not to have been born than to have gone into his own place in perdition. You obviously think that Jesus was blowing allegorical smoke when He threatened his hearers with "everlasting punishment", and "eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels". In short, you do not believe, period. (My guess is that this isn't the only heresy you hold to, but it's enough for now).
you are not my brother in Christ, but a liar and a wolf that is used of the devil to lead sheep astray. My prayer for you is that you repent of this wickedness before your errors are revealed to you in eternity, for you will know, one way or another, soon enough. In any case, your blood will not be on my hands.
Fortunately for all, our blood is on Christ Jesus' hands, feet, head, side…. “But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many” (Rom 5:15).


PL, literally every word of your post is nothing but slavering denouncement and personal opinion. There's nothing of substance in any of it, no fodder for intelligent discussion. It seemed that when you came into the fray, you rather envisioned yourself the Lord's champion, a knight in shining armour defending the desire of God to roast human souls for all eternity. I haven't yet warmed up, we have a lot of ground to cover, but you seem to have retreated into hurling insults and telling how rotten and hell-bound I am. This is accomplishing nothing.

Mouthing trite, unoriginal opinion, fashionable as it is among debating religionists today, does nothing to advance the cause of truth. To chant repeatedly that “Scripture clearly shows that people will burn in eternity in hell” or “the Bible clearly states such and such” is simply evidence of a dogmatic mind trained to parrot repetitious criticisms. This is hardly even a starting point for testing truth claims. You or I either one can only honestly claim, “my interpretation of the Bible on this subject is….”, after which we both need to substantiate our claims in attempts to find all those elusive strands of association of principles and facts which compose a belief system.

I'll check back on the thread from time to time to see if there are any serious seekers.

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#73

Post by puritan lad » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:59 am

I could, like you, write these off as “spiritual allegory”, but instead I'll deal with the text as written, something that you choose not to do, for obvious reasons. There is absolutely nothing in the scriptures you posted that teaches universalism, nor does it refute the doctrine of eternal punishment. In 1 Cor. 15, Paul is dealing with the doctrine of the resurrection, and makes no reference to the final judgment of the wicked. He writes that “in Christ, all shall be made alive.” In particular, he was referring to those who are “in Christ” being made alive. Of course, the wicked will also be “made alive” to the “resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28-29). Maybe you could take a little time and expound that one for me, as well as the multitude of others that I have mentioned.

In verses 49-55, Paul was referring to “we”, his Christian listeners. Of course, all will be resurrected imperishable, but that isn't good news for the wicked. They will be resurrected imperishable, yet will suffer the Second Death as “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night” (Rev. 14:11). They will wish that they could perish, but will “live” for eternity in Hell.

And what does Matthew 5:48 or 1 Cor. 13:10 have to do with the subject at hand? Please expound.
Plain interpretation? There is no plain interpretation to assign, PL. In fact, you twist Jude 1:7 and other Scriptures to mean what you want them to say. In fact, you attempted to use this as a 'proof' that hell is eternal and the passage says no such thing! I thought it was only we universalists who twisted Scripture?
Let's try this again. I will list the scriptures, and let you try to explain them. However, when you do so, please do not give an interpretation that the Bible itself does not give (ie. wheat and tares, according to the Bible = People, not your own private interpretation.)

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory; and before him shall be gathered all nations, and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:31-46).

“If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:43-48).

“What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? What is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and be cast away?” (Mark 8:36; Luke 9:25).

“The rich man died and was buried, and in hell he lifted up his eyes being in torments” (Luke 16:22-23).

“Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul' but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:41-42).

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:22-23).

“He that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. Unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost, it shall never be forgiven” (Luke 12:9-10).

“Woe unto you, ye blind guides. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (Matthew 23:16-33).

“Woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24).

“The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with unbelievers” (Luke 12:46).

“He that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:16).

“Thou Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell” (Matthew 2:23).

“At the end of the world, the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire” (Matthew 13:49-50).

“Then said Jesus again to them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go ye cannot come” (John 8:21).

“The hour is coming in which all that are in their graves shall hear my voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28-29).

“they who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ shall be punished with everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

“he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night…” (Revelation 14:10-11)

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

These are but a few of the multitude of verses that clearly teach eternal punishment. Once you deal with these, there are plenty more, too many to write off the doctrine of punishment as an allegory.

Regarding the “purification” by fire, it is true that God purifies HIS people. There is nothing in the scriptures that teaches the eventual salvation of all men, nor does it suggest that Hell is “purifying”. There is a huge difference between punishment and correction (if only our legal system would learn this). While it is true that some punishment can be for correction (like the Lord chastening His people), this isn't always the case. The final judgment will be one of “burning anger”, “kindled wrath”, “fury”, and “vengeance”. These descriptions cannot be mistaken for reformatory punishments, but punitive. (By the way, Ezek 20:33-44 says absolutely nothing about the eternal state of the wicked. Nice Try. You need a reading lesson, and you may start with the above Scriptures.) God punishes the unredeemed not to correct them, but because they are guilty. They will never cease to be guilty, so God retributive punishments will never cease.
In response to my challenge to you to refute the principle God established with Abram that He would not destroy a whole if there were any good in it, you posted….
Quote:
You have to take that up with the Arminians.

Actually, this principle has nothing whatever to do with the Calvinist/Arminian debate. You're avoiding my challenge. Again, I want you to show me how this principle is wrong.
Your entire argument hinges on the idea that God sees something good in unregenerate man. I deny that He does. The root of your principle is wrong to the core. Man, by his fall, has no good in him but what God himself provides. We are deserving of Hell, and unless God Himself saves us, we are all lost.
Quote:The fact is that it is not God's plan to purge evil from all of creation

This has been refuted above.
No it hasn't. Your refutation has been refuted. Try again.

Unoriginal opinion? All I've stated are scriptural facts. It is you who are entrenched in mere opinion, and simply write off any scripture that you don't agree with as “allegory”. However, I will continue to pos these scriptures until you deal with them, without trying to make them mean something other than their clear meanings. If you can't, then either repent, or just admit that you are a cultists who hates the God of the Bible, since we all know it anyway. Don't forget Paul's warning in 1 Cor. 6. The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. DO NOT BE DECIEVED!!!

PL
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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#74

Post by Bernie » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:30 pm

Hello PL,
In 1 Cor. 15, Paul is dealing with the doctrine of the resurrection, and makes no reference to the final judgment of the wicked. He writes that “in Christ, all shall be made alive.” In particular, he was referring to those who are “in Christ” being made alive. Of course, the wicked will also be “made alive” to the “resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28-29). Maybe you could take a little time and expound that one for me, as well as the multitude of others that I have mentioned.
Your tirades contstitute one of the worst cases of intellectual dishonesty I've seen in a long time, PL. You're clearly twisting Paul's words to fit your theology. Look carefully, Paul writes in v.22, “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.” The context of ALL is established by Paul in those who died in Adam….literally every human being on earth who every was or will be born. You can't possibly deny this fact. When Paul continues in the very same breath, “….so also in Christ all shall be made alive”, he is quite obviously referring again to exactly the same ALL who will be made alive as the ALL who are dead in Adam.

Rom 11:25-26: “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." [my emph]

Rom 5:18-19: “So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” [my emph]

You have no valid argument whatever that Paul understood that exactly the same all who are dead will in the future be made alive. The 'Paul was referring only to Christians' is so obviously close-minded and dishonest that I can't fathom how you can make such a statement and not be wholly embarrassed.
Let's try this again. I will list the scriptures, and let you try to explain them. However, when you do so, please do not give an interpretation that the Bible itself does not give (ie. wheat and tares, according to the Bible = People, not your own private interpretation.)
No, actually the ball is in your court to show me how my interepretation is invalid. Show me the structure of your truth claims, tell me how my interpretation does not pass a legitimate test of truth. And please don't use the irrelevant 'I use the plain language of the Bible' argument. This approach is, as I mentioned before, completely irrelevant as it presupposes that your interpretation is the standard of truth by which all other interpretations must be judged. Atheists use a similar dishonest stance in metaphysical/philosophical arguments, demanding that debate conform to the standard that only matter has reality. This is a dishonest stacking of the deck--God is Spirit, and in the atheist's arena, spirit is a made-up word that has no real (material) meaning. PL, the burden remains upon you to prove to me why wheat and tares, goats and sheep are not truthfully esoteric language denoting a fragmented possession in spirit, mind and body of the qualities or properties of truth (good) and falsity (evil).

Let me summarize what I've presented in support of my view in this thread to date to refresh your memory:
1. I show in an article I wrote some years ago [The Error of the Wholly Animated Spirit, found here: http://www.rationalesotericism.com/Rati ... icles.html] that regeneration is necessarily fragmented and progressive. No one has refuted it. If you are unable, I'll assume we will accept my premise as correct.
2. I've shown that the structure of meaning, what Swedenborg called 'correspondences', constitute the use of the particulars of literal language to represent spiritual concepts in that methodology we call figurative language. This the Lord Himself used repeatedly in His own teachings to represent more significant spiritual truths than the literal is able to bear on its own. Thus, the literal is, as was readily recognized by Aquinas and many others, merely the base meaning from which deeper spiritual meaning springs.
3. It is orthodoxy that God created His universe in a dualistic structure [thing/attribute; spirit/body] in which individual things are comprised of generally smaller elements we call constituent components. Rational Esotericism supposes that it is perfectly natural to suppose that God would use this same structure to convey His meaning to us in His written word.
4. I've shown Scripture support for #2 in pointing out the conversation between God and Abram in which God illustrates the principle that He will not destroy the whole if any good remains in it…He then illustrated a separation of righteous components from Sodom before visiting destruction upon the unrighteous, a very common theme in Scripture. Additionally, I showed a type of this same separation of false elements from a whole, resulting in the establishment of faith in Israel by this same principle of destruction of offending (falsity) elements to further support my proposition.
5. Finally, I showed that this interpretive structure is valid by virtue of its incredible capacity for unity, congruity, continuity and agreement with all Scripture.

By the way, I find your arguments, which, like FFC's are designed to deny the more popular forms of Christian universalism (CU) circulating today, to be ineffective because I come from an entirely different approach. I first make minor corrections to existing doctrine (as re the link above), from which the inexorable conclusion materializes—that Christ Jesus will save all human beings. Most CUs try to marry the notion of universal salvation to existing doctrine and interpretive methods, which goes some distance in showing that salvation is universal. The rationally esoteric view reveals that God has woven into His word how He saves; wrath is deflected from individual to its source, falsity in spirit, resulting in the preservation of the whole. Thus, neither wrath nor blessing is denied, and God's attributes of mercy, justice, love and forgiveness are rendered perfect, which popular soteriologies cannot do. Once this is understood, the 400 year enmity between Calvinist sovereign grace and Arminian free will is put to rest.

Are you up to the challenge on an intellectually honest level?

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#75

Post by puritan lad » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:22 am

Bernie wrote:Hello PL,
In 1 Cor. 15, Paul is dealing with the doctrine of the resurrection, and makes no reference to the final judgment of the wicked. He writes that “in Christ, all shall be made alive.” In particular, he was referring to those who are “in Christ” being made alive. Of course, the wicked will also be “made alive” to the “resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28-29). Maybe you could take a little time and expound that one for me, as well as the multitude of others that I have mentioned.
Your tirades contstitute one of the worst cases of intellectual dishonesty I've seen in a long time, PL. You're clearly twisting Paul's words to fit your theology. Look carefully, Paul writes in v.22, “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.” The context of ALL is established by Paul in those who died in Adam….literally every human being on earth who every was or will be born. You can't possibly deny this fact. When Paul continues in the very same breath, “….so also in Christ all shall be made alive”, he is quite obviously referring again to exactly the same ALL who will be made alive as the ALL who are dead in Adam.

Rom 11:25-26: “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." [my emph]

Rom 5:18-19: “So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” [my emph]

You have no valid argument whatever that Paul understood that exactly the same all who are dead will in the future be made alive. The 'Paul was referring only to Christians' is so obviously close-minded and dishonest that I can't fathom how you can make such a statement and not be wholly embarrassed.
I say so because only Christians can be saved, but I'm sure that you are familiar with the verses that clearly say such. If not, please let me know and I'll be glad to point them out.

Bernie, I have dealt with "all men" and "whole world" many times on this board. The terms are almost never universal. For you sake, I'll repeat this from my most recent post.

"Arminians usually point to passages such as this, that included the phrases "whole world", or "all men". However, such phrases are rarely, if ever, universal in their scope. This is even true in our speech today. What would you make of this TIME ONLINE Blog concerning Princess Diana: The World Grieves Online. Does the "world" refer to every single person? I have to confess that I did not grieve, and certainly not online. Perhaps my lack of grief is a sign of my still sinful heart, but I honestly didn't lose much sleep over the Diana tragedy. In any case, it is obvious that the reference here to the "world" should be applied to "many people, Diana fans from all over the planet". The birth of Christ was said to be "good news of great joy that will be for all the people" (Luke 2:10), yet somehow that good news of great joy escaped King Herod. In fact, if you go back to Luke 2:1, you'll see that Caesar Augustus sent out a decree, that "all the world should be taxed". However, the Chinese, Aborigines, and American Indians never paid a dime to Caesar.

I think you can see my point. If the "world" were taken to mean every single person on planet earth in the Scriptures, then Scripture would certainly teach universal salvation. For example, 2 Cor. 5:19 - "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ" would teach that every person on planet earth has been reconciled to God. Obviously, this is nonsense.

Most of the verses that speak of salvation of "the world" or "all men" fall into one of two categories:

1.) They were written to correct the erroneous belief that salvation was for Jews only, eg. Paul wrote 1 Timothy 2:3-4 for the express purpose of defending his ministry to the Gentiles (See 1 Timothy 2:7).

2.) They were written to a select group of people, and, in context, were meant for those people in particular. For example, 2 Peter 3:9, an Arminian mainstay, tells of a promise that was "toward us". "Us" in the passage clearly refers to the elect (see 2 Peter 1:1)."
Bernie wrote:
Let's try this again. I will list the scriptures, and let you try to explain them. However, when you do so, please do not give an interpretation that the Bible itself does not give (ie. wheat and tares, according to the Bible = People, not your own private interpretation.)
No, actually the ball is in your court to show me how my interepretation is invalid. Show me the structure of your truth claims, tell me how my interpretation does not pass a legitimate test of truth. And please don't use the irrelevant 'I use the plain language of the Bible' argument. This approach is, as I mentioned before, completely irrelevant as it presupposes that your interpretation is the standard of truth by which all other interpretations must be judged. Atheists use a similar dishonest stance in metaphysical/philosophical arguments, demanding that debate conform to the standard that only matter has reality. This is a dishonest stacking of the deck--God is Spirit, and in the atheist's arena, spirit is a made-up word that has no real (material) meaning. PL, the burden remains upon you to prove to me why wheat and tares, goats and sheep are not truthfully esoteric language denoting a fragmented possession in spirit, mind and body of the qualities or properties of truth (good) and falsity (evil).
Bernie, I have already interpreted the sheep/goats and wheat/tares for you the way Jesus Christ did. With all due respect to your "esoteric language" method of interpretation, I'll go with Christ's. He was just a little bit wiser than you are, and since the parables were His parables, he alone has the right to interpret them. Your method of interpretation seeks to intepret scripture to mean what you want it to say. Then, any scripture that disagrees with your interpretation is written off as "allegory". "Intellectually honest"? Please...

I may, when I have nothing better to do, hold my nose and check out your article. In the meantime, you still haven't dealt with the Scriptures, so I will post them again. I ask you to please deal with them, or put an end to your claim of "intellectually honesty". For example, please explain your belief in the eventual salvation of Judas in light of Matthew 26:24. For your benefit, I'll post them again (and there are many more where these came from).

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory; and before him shall be gathered all nations, and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:31-46).

“If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:43-48).

“What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? What is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and be cast away?” (Mark 8:36; Luke 9:25).

“The rich man died and was buried, and in hell he lifted up his eyes being in torments” (Luke 16:22-23).

“Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul' but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:41-42).

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:22-23).

“He that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. Unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost, it shall never be forgiven” (Luke 12:9-10).

“Woe unto you, ye blind guides. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (Matthew 23:16-33).

“Woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24).

“The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with unbelievers” (Luke 12:46).

“He that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:16).

“Thou Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell” (Matthew 2:23).

“At the end of the world, the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire” (Matthew 13:49-50).

“Then said Jesus again to them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go ye cannot come” (John 8:21).

“The hour is coming in which all that are in their graves shall hear my voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28-29).

“they who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ shall be punished with everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

“he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night…” (Revelation 14:10-11)

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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