Christian Universalism

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Christian Universalism

#136

Post by catherine » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:37 pm

I would just like to add that I will keep praying God will show us all, His truth on this matter. Our human reasoning can seem 'right' but at the end of the day, only God is perfect in all His ways. y[-o<

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Re: Christian Universalism

#137

Post by jlay » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:37 am

Now you guys have confused me.

Does He save ALL men, or annihilate some? If they are annihilated, are they saved?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: Christian Universalism

#138

Post by catherine » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:01 pm

jlay wrote:Now you guys have confused me.

Does He save ALL men, or annihilate some? If they are annihilated, are they saved?
Speaking for myself, Jlay, I'm rather confused too. I'm not sure to be honest. I AM SURE there is no place of eternal conscious torment so that leaves two possible outcomes: only some people will have their annihilation reversed and be resurrected (annihilation is being dead, not alive) or ALL PEOPLE will be eventually saved. There are loads and loads of scriptures that seem to support the universilist view but I'm still praying about it. y:-?

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Re: Christian Universalism

#139

Post by natcat86 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:45 pm

I personally believe that God will have all men to be saved. I take God at His word when He says:

Isaiah 45:22-24 (New Living Translation)
Let all the world look to me for salvation! For I am God; there is no other. I have sworn by my own name, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will confess allegiance to my name.

Philippians 2:10-11
At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

-for the Glory of God the father, it will be sincere as we know it does not bring God glory if it is just lip service;

'Matthew 15:8 (New International Version) 8" 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

Therefore it must be a sincere worship of God from all of His creation. For all His creation to do that He must have punished them, the punishment must have taught them the lesson of who God really is, what the reality of their sin was;

Psalm 96:11-13
Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof. Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

The world will be glad because through his punishment God will correct the world, Jesus will have made the way for us and we can all enter into heaven clothed in His righteousness.

I dont think God lets anyone off. Even though I am saved, my body will still die, I still get sick, mourn and suffer all the results of sin. BUT I AM SAVED and one day God will make good on the oath He swore on His name and reconcile the whole world back to Him.

Hallelujah! That is the true Good News!!!!

:ebiggrin:

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Re: Christian Universalism

#140

Post by Byblos » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:27 pm

natcat86 wrote:I personally believe that God will have all men to be saved. I take God at His word when He says:

Isaiah 45:22-24 (New Living Translation)
Let all the world look to me for salvation! For I am God; there is no other. I have sworn by my own name, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will confess allegiance to my name.

Philippians 2:10-11
At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

-for the Glory of God the father, it will be sincere as we know it does not bring God glory if it is just lip service;

'Matthew 15:8 (New International Version) 8" 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

Therefore it must be a sincere worship of God from all of His creation. For all His creation to do that He must have punished them, the punishment must have taught them the lesson of who God really is, what the reality of their sin was;

Psalm 96:11-13
Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof. Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

The world will be glad because through his punishment God will correct the world, Jesus will have made the way for us and we can all enter into heaven clothed in His righteousness.

I dont think God lets anyone off. Even though I am saved, my body will still die, I still get sick, mourn and suffer all the results of sin. BUT I AM SAVED and one day God will make good on the oath He swore on His name and reconcile the whole world back to Him.

Hallelujah! That is the true Good News!!!!

:ebiggrin:
What then was the need for a savior? To save us from what if we're already saved all along?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Christian Universalism

#141

Post by natcat86 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:13 pm

Because we were not saved all along- were slaves to sin, dead in sin, we couldn't come into His presence because of our disgusting sin. Jesus' death on the cross is how God will fulfil His oath to make all His creation worship Him. It is because Jesus died that we are all saved. We aren't saved because we were clever and good enough to believe but because Jesus died and in time God will reveal to each one the truth about Himself.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Noone has escaped the death of Adam and noone will escape Life in Christ- because he is the Christ, the Messiah, the Saviour of the World.

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Re: Christian Universalism

#142

Post by warhoop » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:59 pm

natcat86 wrote:Because we were not saved all along- were slaves to sin, dead in sin, we couldn't come into His presence because of our disgusting sin. Jesus' death on the cross is how God will fulfil His oath to make all His creation worship Him. It is because Jesus died that we are all saved. We aren't saved because we were clever and good enough to believe but because Jesus died and in time God will reveal to each one the truth about Himself.
It seems you're catching this whole salvation thing from an oblique angle and thus your conclusions are slightly skewed. While I'm not going to rebutt this statement, although I find the theology flawed, I would like to ask you a question. First a paraphrase of this comment: Regardless of what we do while breathing on this planet, we get to go to heaven. If this is an accurate representation of your point of view, then what is the purpose of Mathew 28:19?

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Re: Christian Universalism

#143

Post by natcat86 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:05 am

In my church there are lots of people who, before they became christians, had terrible drug addictions. Many who were depressed, lonely, in a cycle of destructive behaviour, angry all the time, abused, and WORST OF ALLcut off from God. Now, becasue people obeyed Mat 28:19 they are forgiven, God has restored familys, healed addiction, given purpose but BEST OF ALL they are in a relationship with God.

We should share the GOOD NEWS with everyone. Some people think that Hell is not fire and brimstone but seperation from God. Well the majority of peolpe on this planet have seperated themselves from God already. They are reaping the rewards of their Sin. When they become His disciples they enter into a relationship with Him which is what He wants, the sooner the better!!!

We should share the good news, 'this is what He has done for you!'

Do we share teh Gospel to tell them the good news or to warn them? If you believe in Hell then surely it is a warning and NOT good news. It doesnt feel like Good News to those whose children have died without knowing the Lord.

I dont see how
warhoop wrote:
natcat86 wrote:Because we were not saved all along- were slaves to sin, dead in sin, we couldn't come into His presence because of our disgusting sin. Jesus' death on the cross is how God will fulfil His oath to make all His creation worship Him. It is because Jesus died that we are all saved. We aren't saved because we were clever and good enough to believe but because Jesus died and in time God will reveal to each one the truth about Himself.
It seems you're catching this whole salvation thing from an oblique angle and thus your conclusions are slightly skewed. While I'm not going to rebutt this statement, although I find the theology flawed, I would like to ask you a question. First a paraphrase of this comment: Regardless of what we do while breathing on this planet, we get to go to heaven. If this is an accurate representation of your point of view, then what is the purpose of Mathew 28:19?
Please tell me where the theology is flawed. Unlike those who believe in Hell I have not taken the words God uses (Gehenna- local dump) and twisted it to fit my idea of God. I have taken the scriptures like Phil 2:10-11 and drawn the conclusion that God manages to accomplish this through love not as some monstrous puppet master forcing His creation to pay Him lip service before torturing them forever.

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Re: Christian Universalism

#144

Post by B. W. » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:37 am

Points for you all too ponder...
Nah 1:3, "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet." ESV

Job 10:11-14, "...You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews. 12 You have granted me life and steadfast love, and your care has preserved my spirit. 13 Yet these things you hid in your heart; I know that this was your purpose. 14 If I sin, you watch me and do not acquit me of my iniquity” ESV
The Lord will by no means acquit the guilty nor will he grant them peace in any shape and form...

Next Catharine: the Greek word aiōnios spelled in its grammar form in Mark 3:29 as aiōniou translated as eternal or translated in the YLT as age enduring is used in 15 bible verses in the NT and all of these spellings indicate that this word means: 'eternal as in never ending, age enduring forever and ever and does not imply in meaning of a temporal age.

Now if your teachers are correct in that eternal spelled this way only means lasting for some unknown temporal time age then the following 'temporal age' definition must absolutely be applied to all the following 15 verses in the NT where the spelling and grammar use would indicate this need. Correct? (I'll list a few of these verses for you but you'll have to look all of them up where aiōniou is used on your own).

So if this is the case then:
John 6:68, “Simon Peter, therefore, answered him, `Sir, unto whom shall we go? thou hast sayings of life age-during (eternal)…”YLT
...God's own word will only last a temporal age! If so, how can God be God? If Jesus only spoke temporal words about life then eternal life is not eternal but only temporal.
Romans 16:26, “and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during (eternal) God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith—“ YLT
So you must be fair and apply your temporal age here as well, thus, making God merely a temporal being and that he can only live for and during a temporal age! Now, Is God eternal — forever or not?
1 Tim 6:19, … “treasuring up to themselves a right foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on the life age-during (eternal). “YLT
Is eternal — age enduring life eternal lasting forever or is it temporal?
2 Ti 2:10, “For this reason I endure all [things], for the sake of the chosen ones, so that they also shall obtain salvation, the [one] in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory (age enduring).” ALT
So is Christ's Glory temporal or eternal?
Titus 1:2, “…in [the] hope [or, confident expectation] of eternal life, which the incapable of lying God promised before eternal times [or, before time began]…” ALT

Titus 3:7, “so that having been justified [or, declared righteous] by that One's grace, we shall become heirs according to [the] hope [or, confident expectation] of eternal life.” ALT
Is eternal life — age enduring life -- eternal lasting forever or is it temporal? You must apply your temporal age definition here to support Universalism and or annihilationism doctrine to be honest with the textual usages here..
Hebrews 9:14-15, “how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during (Eternal) Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And because of this, of a new covenant he is mediator, that, death having come, for redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, those called may receive the promise of the age-during inheritance…YLT”
So does God's Spirit last only an age? is his inheritance likewise temporal?
Hebrews 13:20. “And the God of the peace, who did bring up out of the dead the great shepherd of the sheep--in the blood of an age-during (eternal) covenant--our Lord Jesus,
Therefore if in all 15 bible verses in the NT where the Greek word aiōnios spelled in its grammar form as aiōniou translated as eternal or in YLT as age enduring and 13 of these usages refer to God being eternal, his Spirit being Eternal, the Covenant of life as eternal, eternal life as eternal then the same word, spelled the same way means eternal in the other two verse as well:
Hebrews 6:2 “Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.” KJV

Mark 3:29, “but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness--to the age, but is in danger of age-during (eternal —never ending) judgment;' YLT
You cannot make a case that only when aiōniou is used to denote judgment / punishment as meaning only enduring for only a temporal age and then not apply the same meaning to every case where it is used to refer to God, Christ, eternal life!

That is being disingenuous and misleading — your teachers are misleading you!
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting...

Mat 25:46. “And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.” YLT
You cannot have eternal mean one thing (temporal age) for verses you disagree with. You have and must apply the same meaning elsewhere αἰώνιος / aiōniou is spelled and used in the same grammar forms. Either Eternal life is eternal (forever and ever) or it is temporal and if eternal-never ending forever and ever as indicated then eternal punishment and eternal judgment and hell is also forever and ever because:
Nah 1:3, "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet." ESV

Job 10:11-14, "...You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews. 12 You have granted me life and steadfast love, and your care has preserved my spirit. 13 Yet these things you hid in your heart; I know that this was your purpose. 14 If I sin, you watch me and do not acquit me of my iniquity” ESV

Isaiah 48:22, “There is no peace, said Jehovah, to the wicked!” YLT

Ecc 3:14, 17-18, 22, "I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him...17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts... 22 ....Who can bring him to see what will be after him? ESV

Luke 16:22-23, "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side." ESV
It is the teachers of universalism and annihilationism that make controversy out of the usages of αἰώνιος / aiōniou and not Orthodox Christian doctrine. Therefore beware:
2 Ti 4:3 -4, “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.” ESV
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Re: Christian Universalism

#145

Post by jlay » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:53 pm

Speaking for myself, Jlay, I'm rather confused too. I'm not sure to be honest. I AM SURE there is no place of eternal conscious torment so that leaves two possible outcomes: only some people will have their annihilation reversed and be resurrected (annihilation is being dead, not alive) or ALL PEOPLE will be eventually saved. There are loads and loads of scriptures that seem to support the universilist view but I'm still praying about it.
I know people who are sure that there is no God at all. I have been certain of many things in my life only to find out later, I was wrong.

There is no question that Christ died for all. Now, whether all will receive Him and come into salvation is another story. There certainly are verses that if taken outside the WHOLE counsel of God would give some suggestion that everyone will be saved. That is why we must consider the WHOLE counsel. That is what B.W. has done exhaustively. When considered in the whole counsel we can see that yes, the cross of Christ covers all sin. But we all know that while some were added to the number, some scoffed. Some names are written in the book of life, others not. A good example is in John 3

Jesus says, "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." So, if we stop right there we have a good universalist doctrine. However Jesus didn't stop there In verse 18 He goes on to say. "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Maybe Jesus was confused. He just said to save the WORLD through him. But then He adds a condition of belief/faith. No, Jesus wasn't confused. But someone is.
In my church there are lots of people who, before they became christians
What do you mean they "became" Christians. So they weren't Christian at some point? If everyone is saved, isn't everyone Christian?
It doesnt feel like Good News to those whose children have died without knowing the Lord.
That is not a theological argument. That is a feelings argument. The reality of Heaven and Hell are irrelevant to how someone might feel. And that is the underlying deception in all Universilist's thinking.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Christian Universalism

#146

Post by warhoop » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:36 pm

Very good post BW. Koine Greek is not a language impoverished of vocabulary, if the NT writers wanted to say temporal, they would have.
natcat86 wrote:In my church there are lots of people who, before they became christians, had terrible drug addictions. Many who were depressed, lonely, in a cycle of destructive behaviour, angry all the time, abused, and WORST OF ALLcut off from God. Now, becasue people obeyed Mat 28:19 they are forgiven, God has restored familys, healed addiction, given purpose but BEST OF ALL they are in a relationship with God.

We should share the GOOD NEWS with everyone. Some people think that Hell is not fire and brimstone but seperation from God. Well the majority of peolpe on this planet have seperated themselves from God already. They are reaping the rewards of their Sin. When they become His disciples they enter into a relationship with Him which is what He wants, the sooner the better!!!

We should share the good news, 'this is what He has done for you!'
This is essentially a truthful statement with regards to the state of man and salvation. But I'm a little confused because this is not what you have stated prior. You can't have it both ways. According to your earlier comments, and I'm paraphrasing again so please correct me if this way off base, we as human beings are saved regardless of whether or not we want to be saved; no ifs, ands, or buts. So, let me see if you agree with this statement, the redemption of man glorifies God. If you agree with this statement, does God dragging off his children kicking and screaming to heaven glorify Himself?

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Re: Christian Universalism

#147

Post by natcat86 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:21 am

Ok first things first. I DO NOT think that God winks at sin. I think that those who do not accept Christ in this life will be punished. However, I think that there is a purpose to that punishment. It is to correct the unbelieving. God will punish them as long as it takes for eah one to accept the truth about Him. It will be a fair punishment and a loving punishment.

Now, concerning the meaning of aionios- I'm not really bothered about any dictionary definition. We dont need to worry about that because we have been given a definition by a higher source than any dictionary:

John 17:3
And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.

Does aionios life mean eternal? No, it means to have Jesus:

1 John 5:11-12
And this is the testimony: God has given us aionios-life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

As far as I can tell translating aionios as eternal completly limits what it really is. Aionios life is having Jesus live in you and everything that means.

Will we know jesus forever, yes but that doesnt mean that the meaning of that fact should be added to aionios. We will have ainios life forever, because:

2 Timothy 1:8-11
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the time of the ages, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought LIFE and IMMORTALITY to light through the gospel.

If life were the same as immortality why would Paul say both?

Do you have aionios life? Do you know Jesus and the one who sent HIm? Yes.
Do you have eternal life/immortality? No you are going to die. You will be ressurected but right now you are not immortal, that will be some thing added to you when you are ressurected.

Am I trying to change the meaning of aionios when it suits me? NO! It meas pertaining to the age from the begining to the end of the Bible.

If I say God is the God of the ages does that mean He is no longer eternal? No, it just puts God into a frame of reference that I can understand. God has been God for all the ages past, He was God before there were ages, He will be God when the ages come to an end. Same for His Glory, same for His word. That doesnt mean it will only last for an age, but it spans the ages (and off into eternity).

In the creation story a day is used to represent an age. Back then trying to get their head around billions of years would have blown them away. We cannot ever get our heads around eternity. The writers of the bible have refered to God in terms of ages because that is what we understand. It does not make Him un-eternal.


To sum up. Jesus wants us to have aionios life NOW- to know Him and the One who sent Him. The more the better! If people do not come to have aionios life in this life time, they will be punished until they are corrected and can have aionios life.

Gods hand's arent tied by His justice.

Justice is what God says it is not the other way around.

Jesus asked God to forgive the people who were crucifing Him, they hadn't asked for it but Jesus gave it anyway. He forgave the sinner hanging on the cross next to Him and told Him he would go to heaven, no sinners prayer. Where is the justice!!! well thats up to God.

Nat :)

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Re: Christian Universalism

#148

Post by jlay » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:05 am

Jesus said forgive them, they no not what they do.

No one will be condemned for what they don't know. It is what we/they do know.
They, Roman soldiers were following orders, killing what they thought to be a criminal who had been sentenced to die. We are not condemned because of our human limitations, but when we shake our fist in defiance to Him, our conscience or any light He has placed within us. There are things that adults know that children do not. We don't discipline children for making mistakes. We correct. When they willfully rebel or disobey we discipline.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Christian Universalism

#149

Post by natcat86 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:16 am

We discipline with the purpose of teaching how they should behave. Through discipline we teach. It is a loving thing to discipline a child. You do it not for your own satisfaction, but so the child will learn to do better. You do it to help the child.

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Re: Christian Universalism

#150

Post by jlay » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:50 pm

My reference to discipline was an analogy to add clarity to what we are responsible for. Not to start a thread on why we discipline. There is a difference in correction and discipline. When Jesus spoke of a tree and its fruit He was not giving a lecture on agriculture.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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