Catholics

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Post Reply
User avatar
Brigham
Recognized Member
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:10 am
Christian: No
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Catholics

#1

Post by Brigham » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:25 am

Where and what is the passage that Christians and Catholics disagree on, about the keys to heaven, and what are some opinions?

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5962
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 95 times
Been liked: 139 times

Re: Catholics

#2

Post by Byblos » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:58 am

Brigham wrote:Where and what is the passage that Christians and Catholics disagree on, about the keys to heaven, and what are some opinions?


You say it as if Catholics are not Christian, they (we) are. The most fundamental differences have to do with the authority of the church, particularly the sole authority of the pope unto the church and interpretation of scriptures. There are many differences pertaning to salvation (by grace and works according to Catholics or by grace alone according to the reformers). There are many more differences but those are the most serious.

In my view, even the most serious differences are insignificant and immaterial to salvation. The fundamental truths are the same. IMO, Catholisism is sheltered under the umbrella of christianity.

God bless,

Byblos.

ray
Recognized Member
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:30 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

catholic

#3

Post by ray » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:09 pm

Not being catholic I could be mistaken on some of these. Two of the differences are in the idea of purgatory, praying to saints instead of Jesus. Someone who is Catholic may be able to clarify.

Ray

User avatar
SUGAAAAA
Established Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:42 pm
Christian: No
Location: California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#4

Post by SUGAAAAA » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:34 pm

I agree that Catholics are Christians, and although I come from a Catholic backround, I really havent studied the scriptures enough to really comment upon their beliefs and doctrines... But I believe Catholics are saved, but you dont necessarily have to be one to be saved.


Also, Catholics do not pray to Saints, let alone pray to them instead of Jesus... :roll:
Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something.

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#5

Post by bizzt » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:05 am

SUGAAAAA wrote:I agree that Catholics are Christians, and although I come from a Catholic backround, I really havent studied the scriptures enough to really comment upon their beliefs and doctrines... But I believe Catholics are saved, but you dont necessarily have to be one to be saved.


Also, Catholics do not pray to Saints, let alone pray to them instead of Jesus... :roll:
What do you call this Prayer?

MARIAN PRAYER OF
SAINT BERNADINE OF SIENNA
(A.D. 1381-1444)
O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces,
and since the grace of salvation
can only come through thy hands,
our salvation depends on thee.

Or this one?

MARIAN PRAYERS OF
SAINT BONAVENTURE # 1
(A.D. 1218-1274)
O Mary, may my heart never cease to love you,
and my tongue never cease to praise you.

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5962
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 95 times
Been liked: 139 times

#6

Post by Byblos » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:33 am

bizzt wrote:
SUGAAAAA wrote:I agree that Catholics are Christians, and although I come from a Catholic backround, I really havent studied the scriptures enough to really comment upon their beliefs and doctrines... But I believe Catholics are saved, but you dont necessarily have to be one to be saved.


Also, Catholics do not pray to Saints, let alone pray to them instead of Jesus... :roll:

What do you call this Prayer?

MARIAN PRAYER OF
SAINT BERNADINE OF SIENNA
(A.D. 1381-1444)
O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces,
and since the grace of salvation
can only come through thy hands,
our salvation depends on thee.


Totally wrong. I would be surprised if this is still condoned by the RCC. I would NEVER utter such nonsense. There are misguided souls in every religion and denomination.
bizzt wrote:Or this one?

MARIAN PRAYERS OF
SAINT BONAVENTURE # 1
(A.D. 1218-1274)
O Mary, may my heart never cease to love you,
and my tongue never cease to praise you.


I see nothing wrong with this one, given that we believe Mary is very much alive in Christ and that she can intercede on our behalf; although the only intercessory prayer I attribute to Mary is 'Hail Mary', which is a collection of quotes from the NT directly attributed to her. Here's a link that references the scriptures from which it is derived:

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/rosary_scripture.htm

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#7

Post by bizzt » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:43 am

I never said it was not wrong but it does show you how People have Worshipped, or gave more Adoration to the Saints then to Jesus...

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5962
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 95 times
Been liked: 139 times

#8

Post by Byblos » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:37 pm

bizzt wrote:I never said it was not wrong but it does show you how People have Worshipped, or gave more Adoration to the Saints then to Jesus...
I agree with you but that is hardly an official RCC position and as such should not be generalized nor stereoptyped onto all Catholics. The doctrine is very clear on this issue, prayer to Mary and the saints are only intercessory prayers and in no way should convey a sense of worship. I've said this many times, I will not lose a wink of sleep, as a Catholic and a Christian, if I only praid to Jesus and confessed my sins directly to Him.

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#9

Post by bizzt » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:31 pm

Byblos wrote:
bizzt wrote:I never said it was not wrong but it does show you how People have Worshipped, or gave more Adoration to the Saints then to Jesus...
I agree with you but that is hardly an official RCC position and as such should not be generalized nor stereoptyped onto all Catholics. The doctrine is very clear on this issue, prayer to Mary and the saints are only intercessory prayers and in no way should convey a sense of worship. I've said this many times, I will not lose a wink of sleep, as a Catholic and a Christian, if I only praid to Jesus and confessed my sins directly to Him.
These are in no means a degredation to your faith Byblos. I am just asking out of a Pure Heart


If one believes in the Saints and the Catholic Churh endorses such then what is wrong with these Prayers
O Immaculate and wholly-pure Virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the world, hope of those who are in despair: You are the joy of the saints; you are the peacemaker between sinners and God; you are the advocate of the abandoned, the secure haven of those who are on the sea of the world; you are the consolation of the world, the ransom of slaves, the comfortress of the afflicted....
O great Queen, we take refuge in your protection. After God, you are all my hope. We bear the name of your servants; allow not the enemy to drag us to hell. I salute you, O great mediatress of peace between men and God, Mother of Jesus our Lord, who is the love of all men and of God, to whom be honor and benediction with the Father and the Holy Ghost. Amen.
St. Ephrem
A Marian Prayer Book : A Treasury of Prayers, Hymns, and Meditations / edited by Pamela Moran Imprint Ann Arbor, Mich. : Servant Publications, c1991, BX2160.2 .M37 1991, p. 226
Here is a link to many more
http://www.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/SaintsPrayers.htm

I do not understand why you would pray some of these when clearly the actions they attribute to Mary are actual Attributes of Jesus!! eg the Bolded above

Why do we pray to saints and not to God??
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore also he is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

I know Byblos you will not lose any sleep over it but is this not a wrong Teaching?

All in the means of discussing

God Bless

Veronica
Recognized Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:40 am
Christian: No
Location: Canada
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#10

Post by Veronica » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:01 pm

I never said it was not wrong but it does show you how People have Worshipped, or gave more Adoration to the Saints then to Jesus...
The Catholic Church may not condemn worship (dulia, meaning verneraion) but it does condemn worship of the other kind (latria, meaning adoration) when given to the saints. Latria worship may only be given to God ;)

It is very difficult to understand Mary's role in our lives as Catholics, and I'd rather explain it to you myslef, but I have a few deadlines to meet, so here's a link to a talk Scott Hahn gave that has been typed out (I know, I'm terrible for giving links... :roll:) http://catholiceducation.org/articles/a ... p0095.html

God bless,
Veronica

User avatar
SUGAAAAA
Established Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:42 pm
Christian: No
Location: California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#11

Post by SUGAAAAA » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:39 pm

The only thing really have an issue with (although not a big one) is infant baptism. isnt this unbiblical? and how come infants are never baptized in the NT?
Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something.

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5962
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 95 times
Been liked: 139 times

#12

Post by Byblos » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:41 pm

bizzt wrote:
Byblos wrote:
bizzt wrote:I never said it was not wrong but it does show you how People have Worshipped, or gave more Adoration to the Saints then to Jesus...


I agree with you but that is hardly an official RCC position and as such should not be generalized nor stereoptyped onto all Catholics. The doctrine is very clear on this issue, prayer to Mary and the saints are only intercessory prayers and in no way should convey a sense of worship. I've said this many times, I will not lose a wink of sleep, as a Catholic and a Christian, if I only praid to Jesus and confessed my sins directly to Him.

These are in no means a degredation to your faith Byblos. I am just asking out of a Pure Heart


I know. No need to explain your motives and you can ask any question that's on your mind. I do realize the difficulty with which non-Catholics view our practices. But just know one thing, they are all, all of them related to Jesus Christ one way or the other. The whole thing with Mary is centered on the fact that she is Jesus' mother and has a special relationship with him.
bizzt wrote:If one believes in the Saints and the Catholic Churh endorses such then what is wrong with these Prayers
O Immaculate and wholly-pure Virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the world, hope of those who are in despair: You are the joy of the saints; you are the peacemaker between sinners and God; you are the advocate of the abandoned, the secure haven of those who are on the sea of the world; you are the consolation of the world, the ransom of slaves, the comfortress of the afflicted....
O great Queen, we take refuge in your protection. After God, you are all my hope. We bear the name of your servants; allow not the enemy to drag us to hell. I salute you, O great mediatress of peace between men and God, Mother of Jesus our Lord, who is the love of all men and of God, to whom be honor and benediction with the Father and the Holy Ghost. Amen.
St. Ephrem
A Marian Prayer Book : A Treasury of Prayers, Hymns, and Meditations / edited by Pamela Moran Imprint Ann Arbor, Mich. : Servant Publications, c1991, BX2160.2 .M37 1991, p. 226


Here is a link to many more
http://www.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/SaintsPrayers.htm

I do not understand why you would pray some of these when clearly the actions they attribute to Mary are actual Attributes of Jesus!! eg the Bolded above


What if you look at these prayers from the point of view that Jesus is God? Then the role of Mary to Jesus would not be a replacement for the mediator role of Jesus with God but in addition to it, as an intercessory role with her son on our behalf.
bizzt wrote:Why do we pray to saints and not to God??

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore also he is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


To say we pray to the saints and not to God is a gross misstatement. We most certainly do pray directly to God, to Jesus, to the Holy Spirit as the one true God. Our entire mass (done daily 300,000 times around the globe), including the most important part, the holy eucharist, is centered around Jesus Christ and no other. In addition to these prayers, however, we pray that Mary and the saints intercede with Christ on our behalf much the same way you ask your christian family to pray for you in your times of need. it is that simple.
bizzt wrote:I know Byblos you will not lose any sleep over it but is this not a wrong Teaching?


It is not wrong teaching when viewed from the above perspective.
bizzt wrote:All in the means of discussing

God Bless


Bizzt, believe me when I tell you I've discussed these issues more times than I could count. It does not bother me in the least. In fact I encourage open and honest discussion no matter how the views differ from mine. I know I will not convince you of my beliefs and that is not my goal any way. But if I can succeed in putting things in their proper perspective so that you can say 'hmm, I do not believe in the Catholic practices but I can see how they can', then I have done my job.

Always in Christ,

Byblos.

Veronica
Recognized Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:40 am
Christian: No
Location: Canada
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#13

Post by Veronica » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:06 am

SUGAAAAA wrote:The only thing really have an issue with (although not a big one) is infant baptism. isnt this unbiblical? and how come infants are never baptized in the NT?
On the contrary, keep in mind that entire households were baptized, this would include infants. (Acts 2:38-39; Acts 16:15; Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; 1 Corinthians 1:16)

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#14

Post by bizzt » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:14 pm

Byblos wrote: I know. No need to explain your motives and you can ask any question that's on your mind. I do realize the difficulty with which non-Catholics view our practices. But just know one thing, they are all, all of them related to Jesus Christ one way or the other. The whole thing with Mary is centered on the fact that she is Jesus' mother and has a special relationship with him.
Is she not a heir as well? I do see what you mean that Mary has a special relationship to her Son! What I am trying to say is the Bible never tells us to Pray to the Saints to help us. Paul however tells us to have others pray for you. I know I know Catholics believe the Saints are of the Body Of Christ (which they are) and still can hear your Prayers even in Heaven!
What if you look at these prayers from the point of view that Jesus is God? Then the role of Mary to Jesus would not be a replacement for the mediator role of Jesus with God but in addition to it, as an intercessory role with her son on our behalf.

How can one be an intercessor if she has died and gone to Heaven? What Scriptures can you relate to us praying to Saints of the Past?


To say we pray to the saints and not to God is a gross misstatement. We most certainly do pray directly to God, to Jesus, to the Holy Spirit as the one true God. Our entire mass (done daily 300,000 times around the globe), including the most important part, the holy eucharist, is centered around Jesus Christ and no other. In addition to these prayers, however, we pray that Mary and the saints intercede with Christ on our behalf much the same way you ask your christian family to pray for you in your times of need. it is that simple.
That was not my intention. Again I guess I don't understand how one is asking the Dead (whether alive in Christ or not) to pray for them is Scriptural thats all... Please lend me a hand there Byblos

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore also he is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


Bizzt, believe me when I tell you I've discussed these issues more times than I could count. It does not bother me in the least. In fact I encourage open and honest discussion no matter how the views differ from mine. I know I will not convince you of my beliefs and that is not my goal any way. But if I can succeed in putting things in their proper perspective so that you can say 'hmm, I do not believe in the Catholic practices but I can see how they can', then I have done my job.

Always in Christ,

Byblos.
Indeed... I have talked to many Catholics on these Issues some were able to answer some not... I just find it allows us to learn together no matter if we believe the view of the other person or not.

Thanks Byblos

In Christ
Bizzt

Fortigurn
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1071
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:29 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#15

Post by Fortigurn » Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:45 pm

Veronica wrote:
SUGAAAAA wrote:The only thing really have an issue with (although not a big one) is infant baptism. isnt this unbiblical? and how come infants are never baptized in the NT?
On the contrary, keep in mind that entire households were baptized, this would include infants. (Acts 2:38-39; Acts 16:15; Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; 1 Corinthians 1:16)
Assumption.

Post Reply