Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
PaulSacramento
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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#61

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:22 am

RickD wrote:I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here. See for yourselves. Google "homosexual definition". Every site has homosexual, as referring to people, not animals. Then when you're done seeing homosexuality is a human condition, look up the definition of anthropomorphism, and you'll see why you're attributing homosexuality to animals.
Yes, pretty much every definitiono of homosexuality is a human one:
ex-
Medical Dictionary

homosexuality ho·mo·sex·u·al·i·ty (hō'mə-sěk'sh&oomacr;-āl'Ä­-tē, -mō-)
n.

Sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.

Sexual activity with another of the same sex.

Can the term be applied to animals that engage in sexual acts between the same genders?
Well, in terms of what the TERMS mean, yes-
Homo- Greek for same. ( not when Homo means human)
Sexuality - sexual activity.
So any animal the engages in sexual activity with the same gender is display homosexuality in the "Literal" sense of the word.
BUT I would argue that since animals do NOT EXCULSIVELY engage in that, at best that activity could be called "bisexuality" but more correctly, "alternative sexual activity".

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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#62

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:41 am

Being part of a JW recovery website, I know that it is very hard to reach JW's and even those that leave have been so scarred that many become agnostic at best and Atheists at "worse".
When they leave they get disfellowshipped (shunned) and even their families don't want anything to do with them.
Christ is not a "dividing force", and yet that is how He is "used" by this organization, they instill and "US VS Them" mentality that even applies to family members and I mean a son or a daughter even.
Its a horrific thing to see and I have know of people that were disfellowed because they went against the organization because of sexual abuse, others because of their "no blood" policy , others because they dared to challenge one of their key doctrines ( Jesus is Michael, only 144K will be in heaven, salvation is ONLY available through the organization, etc).
It was heart breaking to see how many have been turned away for Christ because the only Christ they knew was the Christ of the JW's.

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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#63

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:09 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:Being part of a JW recovery website, I know that it is very hard to reach JW's and even those that leave have been so scarred that many become agnostic at best and Atheists at "worse".
When they leave they get disfellowshipped (shunned) and even their families don't want anything to do with them.
Christ is not a "dividing force", and yet that is how He is "used" by this organization, they instill and "US VS Them" mentality that even applies to family members and I mean a son or a daughter even.
Its a horrific thing to see and I have know of people that were disfellowed because they went against the organization because of sexual abuse, others because of their "no blood" policy , others because they dared to challenge one of their key doctrines ( Jesus is Michael, only 144K will be in heaven, salvation is ONLY available through the organization, etc).
It was heart breaking to see how many have been turned away for Christ because the only Christ they knew was the Christ of the JW's.
Not only is He a dividing force, Christ/God makes the claim to divide families. ( See Luke 12:49-53 ) So it is good that families be divided for the sake of Christ and the truth. Not only is it "horrific" to see families divided, but how much more so will it be in the end when the division is eternal.
.
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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#64

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:15 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Being part of a JW recovery website, I know that it is very hard to reach JW's and even those that leave have been so scarred that many become agnostic at best and Atheists at "worse".
When they leave they get disfellowshipped (shunned) and even their families don't want anything to do with them.
Christ is not a "dividing force", and yet that is how He is "used" by this organization, they instill and "US VS Them" mentality that even applies to family members and I mean a son or a daughter even.
Its a horrific thing to see and I have know of people that were disfellowed because they went against the organization because of sexual abuse, others because of their "no blood" policy , others because they dared to challenge one of their key doctrines ( Jesus is Michael, only 144K will be in heaven, salvation is ONLY available through the organization, etc).
It was heart breaking to see how many have been turned away for Christ because the only Christ they knew was the Christ of the JW's.
Not only is He a dividing force, Christ/God makes the claim to divide families. ( See Luke 12:49-53 ) So it is good that families be divided for the sake of Christ and the truth. Not only is it "horrific" to see families divided, but how much more so will it be in the end when the division is eternal.
.
.
You are insinuating that the Watchtower is CORRECT in their interpretation of the bible?

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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#65

Post by RickD » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:18 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
Not only is He a dividing force, Christ/God makes the claim to divide families. ( See Luke 12:49-53 ) So it is good that families be divided for the sake of Christ and the truth. Not only is it "horrific" to see families divided, but how much more so will it be in the end when the division is eternal.
While that's true, Bav, Paul is talking about a false-Christ who is doing the dividing. People that need the love of the real Jesus Christ, but are turned off to Him because of their belief in a false-Christ. They need to be shown that their false-Christ, isn't the Christ who died for them.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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PaulSacramento
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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#66

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:24 pm

RickD wrote:BavarianWheels wrote:
Not only is He a dividing force, Christ/God makes the claim to divide families. ( See Luke 12:49-53 ) So it is good that families be divided for the sake of Christ and the truth. Not only is it "horrific" to see families divided, but how much more so will it be in the end when the division is eternal.
While that's true, Bav, Paul is talking about a false-Christ who is doing the dividing. People that need the love of the real Jesus Christ, but are turned off to Him because of their belief in a false-Christ. They need to be shown that their false-Christ, isn't the Christ who died for them.
Indeed, having been exposed to different perspectives about Christ, ALL "from" the bible, has opened my eyes to how these "cults" came to be and how they became to influential in peoples lives.
JW's can proof text from the bible ALL of their doctrines, almost at the drop of a hat.
Yes they are taken out of context and are based on THEIR unique interpretations, BUT they are THERE and you guys have no idea how indoctrinated they can be.

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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#67

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:29 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:You are insinuating that the Watchtower is CORRECT in their interpretation of the bible?
In that belief/faith in Christ divides? Yes. In their interpretation of God's Word? No.
RickD wrote:While that's true, Bav, Paul is talking about a false-Christ who is doing the dividing. People that need the love of the real Jesus Christ, but are turned off to Him because of their belief in a false-Christ. They need to be shown that their false-Christ, isn't the Christ who died for them.
I don't see how this is any different. There is blame in both, one promoting a false christ and the other not seeking the true Christ and turning God off.
.
.

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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#68

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:30 pm

Certainly Christ was a 'dividing force' since many of his new teachings went against "convential wisdom".
Many left him because of his teachings on being the ONE way to God and having to "eat of his fleash and drink of his blood", or because of loving your enemies and forging them as many times as they injure you, BUT that is not the division that the JW's teach of Christ.
Do you know that ONLY those that are annointed ( of the 144k) can partake of the Lord's Body and Blood?
What of the rest you ask? well, what of them according to the Watchtower.
That Christ said the we must partake of his body and the vast majority of JW's don't because their organization tells them they are not worthy of it, THAT is a division that Christ would NOT have wanted.
At least not in my view.

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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#69

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:39 pm

I recall one that, poor girl, was abused and beaten by her husband.
When she approched the elders they told her to stick with it, that Jehovah would help her and as much as she prayed, things got worse to the point where she had to call the police.
With that came disfellowship for not allows "gods organization" to act in "due time".
To quote her: "where was God for me? where was Christ?
You know where she did get help from?
No from the organization but from non-religious groups.
She wanted nothing to do with God and Christ, how could they even exist?
I am happy to say that, while it took sometime, she was able to understand that it was Christ that give her the strength to leave, that it was Christ that worked through even non-believers to help her, it IS Christ and the HS that continue to strengthen her with their love and grace.
There was still some faith in her, a faith that knew that "THAT Christ" was not THE Christ, THAT God was not THE God.
What won her over? Love, the love of Christ through the HS and through His Church, His Church that is ALL of Us.
The church of the love of Christ given to all not because of what they have done but because what CHRIST has done for Us.

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Re: Re:

#70

Post by Mitzy » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:51 pm

JCSx2 wrote:
omimanordude wrote: JWs almost always respond the same because they all recieve the same information from the watchtower and their literature.
quote]

Are they the borg? :ebiggrin: :ebiggrin:
If you use a certain code you can decipher their pamphlets, which actually say, "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." :lol:

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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#71

Post by secretfire6 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:58 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:Being part of a JW recovery website, I know that it is very hard to reach JW's and even those that leave have been so scarred that many become agnostic at best and Atheists at "worse".
When they leave they get disfellowshipped (shunned) and even their families don't want anything to do with them.
Christ is not a "dividing force", and yet that is how He is "used" by this organization, they instill and "US VS Them" mentality that even applies to family members and I mean a son or a daughter even.
Its a horrific thing to see and I have know of people that were disfellowed because they went against the organization because of sexual abuse, others because of their "no blood" policy , others because they dared to challenge one of their key doctrines ( Jesus is Michael, only 144K will be in heaven, salvation is ONLY available through the organization, etc).
It was heart breaking to see how many have been turned away for Christ because the only Christ they knew was the Christ of the JW's.
I guess I got kind of lucky. My entire immediate family left the witnesses when my brother and I were still fairly young (4th grade for me). however many of the friends i had in the kingdom hall have given me the silent treatment once I told them why we left. One of those friends, a girl i liked alot, even told me about how her dad and brother had left so they dont associate with them much anymore until they come back to "the truth". That whole family is wonderful people and it angers me that the ideas of a single institution could blind them all and drive them apart.

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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#72

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:15 pm

secretfire6 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Being part of a JW recovery website, I know that it is very hard to reach JW's and even those that leave have been so scarred that many become agnostic at best and Atheists at "worse".
When they leave they get disfellowshipped (shunned) and even their families don't want anything to do with them.
Christ is not a "dividing force", and yet that is how He is "used" by this organization, they instill and "US VS Them" mentality that even applies to family members and I mean a son or a daughter even.
Its a horrific thing to see and I have know of people that were disfellowed because they went against the organization because of sexual abuse, others because of their "no blood" policy , others because they dared to challenge one of their key doctrines ( Jesus is Michael, only 144K will be in heaven, salvation is ONLY available through the organization, etc).
It was heart breaking to see how many have been turned away for Christ because the only Christ they knew was the Christ of the JW's.
I guess I got kind of lucky. My entire immediate family left the witnesses when my brother and I were still fairly young (4th grade for me). however many of the friends i had in the kingdom hall have given me the silent treatment once I told them why we left. One of those friends, a girl i liked alot, even told me about how her dad and brother had left so they dont associate with them much anymore until they come back to "the truth". That whole family is wonderful people and it angers me that the ideas of a single institution could blind them all and drive them apart.
Its a very sad thing indeed, but they feel that by doing this they are doing what Christ commanded ( Throw out the evil doer and have no contact as per Paul) and what he predicited ( Keeping His word would make families go against each other, drive father against son and so forth).

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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#73

Post by RickD » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:47 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
secretfire6 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Being part of a JW recovery website, I know that it is very hard to reach JW's and even those that leave have been so scarred that many become agnostic at best and Atheists at "worse".
When they leave they get disfellowshipped (shunned) and even their families don't want anything to do with them.
Christ is not a "dividing force", and yet that is how He is "used" by this organization, they instill and "US VS Them" mentality that even applies to family members and I mean a son or a daughter even.
Its a horrific thing to see and I have know of people that were disfellowed because they went against the organization because of sexual abuse, others because of their "no blood" policy , others because they dared to challenge one of their key doctrines ( Jesus is Michael, only 144K will be in heaven, salvation is ONLY available through the organization, etc).
It was heart breaking to see how many have been turned away for Christ because the only Christ they knew was the Christ of the JW's.
I guess I got kind of lucky. My entire immediate family left the witnesses when my brother and I were still fairly young (4th grade for me). however many of the friends i had in the kingdom hall have given me the silent treatment once I told them why we left. One of those friends, a girl i liked alot, even told me about how her dad and brother had left so they dont associate with them much anymore until they come back to "the truth". That whole family is wonderful people and it angers me that the ideas of a single institution could blind them all and drive them apart.
Its a very sad thing indeed, but they feel that by doing this they are doing what Christ commanded ( Throw out the evil doer and have no contact as per Paul) and what he predicited ( Keeping His word would make families go against each other, drive father against son and so forth).
Sounds like what Fred Phelps, the Westboro Baptist Church Pastor did, when his daughter came to her senses, and left his church.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#74

Post by secretfire6 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:01 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
secretfire6 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Being part of a JW recovery website, I know that it is very hard to reach JW's and even those that leave have been so scarred that many become agnostic at best and Atheists at "worse".
When they leave they get disfellowshipped (shunned) and even their families don't want anything to do with them.
Christ is not a "dividing force", and yet that is how He is "used" by this organization, they instill and "US VS Them" mentality that even applies to family members and I mean a son or a daughter even.
Its a horrific thing to see and I have know of people that were disfellowed because they went against the organization because of sexual abuse, others because of their "no blood" policy , others because they dared to challenge one of their key doctrines ( Jesus is Michael, only 144K will be in heaven, salvation is ONLY available through the organization, etc).
It was heart breaking to see how many have been turned away for Christ because the only Christ they knew was the Christ of the JW's.
I guess I got kind of lucky. My entire immediate family left the witnesses when my brother and I were still fairly young (4th grade for me). however many of the friends i had in the kingdom hall have given me the silent treatment once I told them why we left. One of those friends, a girl i liked alot, even told me about how her dad and brother had left so they dont associate with them much anymore until they come back to "the truth". That whole family is wonderful people and it angers me that the ideas of a single institution could blind them all and drive them apart.
Its a very sad thing indeed, but they feel that by doing this they are doing what Christ commanded ( Throw out the evil doer and have no contact as per Paul) and what he predicited ( Keeping His word would make families go against each other, drive father against son and so forth).
but they are throwing people out for the wrong reason. If the institution is wrong, it's wrong and going against it is not evil. The Bible lists all kinds of things that are evil and proving a religious train of thought wrong is not one of them. thats what makes me mad...they have too much pride to listen and they just think they are right because they want to

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Re: Talking to a Jehovah's Witness

#75

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:38 am

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
secretfire6 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Being part of a JW recovery website, I know that it is very hard to reach JW's and even those that leave have been so scarred that many become agnostic at best and Atheists at "worse".
When they leave they get disfellowshipped (shunned) and even their families don't want anything to do with them.
Christ is not a "dividing force", and yet that is how He is "used" by this organization, they instill and "US VS Them" mentality that even applies to family members and I mean a son or a daughter even.
Its a horrific thing to see and I have know of people that were disfellowed because they went against the organization because of sexual abuse, others because of their "no blood" policy , others because they dared to challenge one of their key doctrines ( Jesus is Michael, only 144K will be in heaven, salvation is ONLY available through the organization, etc).
It was heart breaking to see how many have been turned away for Christ because the only Christ they knew was the Christ of the JW's.
I guess I got kind of lucky. My entire immediate family left the witnesses when my brother and I were still fairly young (4th grade for me). however many of the friends i had in the kingdom hall have given me the silent treatment once I told them why we left. One of those friends, a girl i liked alot, even told me about how her dad and brother had left so they dont associate with them much anymore until they come back to "the truth". That whole family is wonderful people and it angers me that the ideas of a single institution could blind them all and drive them apart.
Its a very sad thing indeed, but they feel that by doing this they are doing what Christ commanded ( Throw out the evil doer and have no contact as per Paul) and what he predicited ( Keeping His word would make families go against each other, drive father against son and so forth).
Sounds like what Fred Phelps, the Westboro Baptist Church Pastor did, when his daughter came to her senses, and left his church.
Extremists groups are always high-control groups, they have to be because they are hanging on by such a "thin thread" that it all can unravel pretty quick with the right person saying the right thing.

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