Are Christadelphians Christian?

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Are Christadelphians Christian?

Yes
5
19%
No
15
58%
Unsure
0
No votes
Don't know enough about them to say
6
23%
 
Total votes: 26

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Kurieuo
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Are Christadelphians Christian?

#1

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:42 am

Just thought I'd open up a thread since this seems to be a common topic throughout many threads between Fortigurn and others here.
Obviously the question is loaded, since the term "Christian" can be understood differently between a Christadelphian and non- alike. In reflecting upon such a question, I think it is important for Christians to develop understandings of crucial Christian teachings. What is it that makes someone Christian? What does "Christian" mean? In what ways does our understanding of "Christian" differ to others?

Additionally, I think a discussion of Christadelphian beliefs would also help to highlight many important doctrines Christians may just take for granted. One in particular I came across, which Fortigurn could perhaps comment on, is the Christadelphian belief that Jesus' nature was actually sinful? Given such a belief, it could be asked what such a thing means to many Christian teachings, for example, that one can only be saved through Christ. Would such a belief also mean Jesus requires saving? But then who "saves" Christ?

Anyway, just thought a new thread to discuss such things would be good.

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#2

Post by Blob » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:56 am

One in particular I came across, which Fortigurn could perhaps comment on, is the Christadelphian belief that Jesus' nature was actually sinful?
If that is the case I'd say no.

Although I am an atheist I consider a Christian as needing to believe the Christ was god born as man (so JWs are not Christians IMO), and that he was sinless.
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Re: Are Christadelphians Christian?

#3

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:16 am

Kurieuo wrote: One in particular I came across, which Fortigurn could perhaps comment on, is the Christadelphian belief that Jesus' nature was actually sinful? Given such a belief, it could be asked what such a thing means to many Christian teachings, for example, that one can only be saved through Christ.
The term 'sinful nature' is not a useful one, partly because it carries a lot of theological baggage, and more importantly because it's not actually a Biblical term.

To put it in more direct terms, we believe that Jesus Christ was a real man (not a pretend one), who had the same nature we all do. We believe he had a nature which was naturally inclined to sin, but which he overcame with the help of his Father, so that he did not sin.

We don't believe in 'Original Sin', so we don't believe that anyone (especially Jesus), is born morally guilty.
Would such a belief also mean Jesus requires saving? But then who "saves" Christ?
Apparently, strange as it may seem, the Bible tells us that Christ needed saving from death, and that God saved Christ from death:
Hebrews 5:
7 During his earthly life Christ offered both requests and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death and he was heard because of his devotion.

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#4

Post by Felgar » Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:47 am

This is an interesting question Kurieuo. I have been thinking about this too, mainly because of the addition new of members professing to be Christadelphian and Scientologists. In my reflection of what makes someone Christian, I came upon three biblical truths pertaining to salvation which I feel cannot be denied. I feel that a Christian will truly believe and answer "yes" to these three questions:

Do you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe that He was raised from the dead?
Romans 10:8b-11: that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Do you believe that you are a sinner who is justified freely by God's grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus?
Romans 3:22-24: This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Do you believe that you are born again with the blood of Jesus through the repentance of your sin and your acceptance of Jesus and the sacrifice that He has made on your behalf?
John 3:3, 16-17: In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
...
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world [from heaven: see vs 13] to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
1 Peter 1:23; For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 John 1:7-9: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Romans 5:18: Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
There are certainly more verses to support the questions, esspecially the last one which is really a summary more than just a direct quote from the Bible. There are other things also that every Christian must, by definition, believe. It certainly is an interesting discussion. I don't believe method of creationn (OEC/YEC), evolution, nature of communion, prayer to saints, end times theology, and even baptism make the cut. Free-will and the Trinity are borderline and I personally don't know about them. But perhaps the above 3 are a starting point.

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RE:

#5

Post by Ark~Magic » Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:54 am

I still don't believe this. Doesn't it say in the bible that Christ was sinless?

And where do they get all this horrid doctrine from? When did this cult form?

*Edited for profanity
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Re: RE:

#6

Post by Fortigurn » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:56 am

Ark~Magic wrote:I still don't believe this. Doesn't it say in the bible that Christ was sinless?
He was sinless. We believe that he was sinless.
And where do they get all this horrid doctrine from?
What 'horrid doctrine'? Here's my post again, in case you didn't read it:
The term 'sinful nature' is not a useful one, partly because it carries a lot of theological baggage, and more importantly because it's not actually a Biblical term.

To put it in more direct terms, we believe that Jesus Christ was a real man (not a pretend one), who had the same nature we all do. We believe he had a nature which was naturally inclined to sin, but which he overcame with the help of his Father, so that he did not sin.

We don't believe in 'Original Sin', so we don't believe that anyone (especially Jesus), is born morally guilty.
Would such a belief also mean Jesus requires saving? But then who "saves" Christ?
Apparently, strange as it may seem, the Bible tells us that Christ needed saving from death, and that God saved Christ from death:
Hebrews 5:
7 During his earthly life Christ offered both requests and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death and he was heard because of his devotion.

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#7

Post by SUGAAAAA » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:25 pm

I still cant believe the Christadelphians think their church is the one true church... thinking that Christianity has been greatly mislead since after the 1st century is a little extreme... and I cant help but wonder why God would take 1800 some years after Jesus' death to establish a truth. But whatever, they still stand and so does Christianity.


Im voting "no", but to them they are Christian, in a way that the rest of the Christian world is completely wrong and they are right. hoorah.
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#8

Post by Fortigurn » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:55 pm

SUGAAAAA wrote:I still cant believe the Christadelphians think their church is the one true church... thinking that Christianity has been greatly mislead since after the 1st century is a little extreme... and I cant help but wonder why God would take 1800 some years after Jesus' death to establish a truth.
We don't believe any such thing.
Im voting "no", but to them they are Christian, in a way that the rest of the Christian world is completely wrong and they are right. hoorah.
We do not believe that 'the rest of the Christian world is completely wrong'.

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#9

Post by SUGAAAAA » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:15 am

when researching what Christadelphians believe/teach, I came across this quote;


"They believe that there has been an apostasy and that Christianity is a false religious system. (A tract titled 'Christendom Astray Since the Apostolic Age, Detroit Christadelphian Book Supply')"


which was the main drive for my last post.
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#10

Post by Fortigurn » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:32 am

SUGAAAAA wrote:when researching what Christadelphians believe/teach, I came across this quote;


"They believe that there has been an apostasy and that Christianity is a false religious system. (A tract titled 'Christendom Astray Since the Apostolic Age, Detroit Christadelphian Book Supply')"


which was the main drive for my last post.
I suggest to you that this interpretation of what is in one tract does not warrant the representation of our beliefs which you have made.

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#11

Post by bizzt » Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:57 am

From
http://www.christadelphian.org.uk/wcb/
The fundamental Christadelphian beliefs are:

The Bible is God's word and the only message from him. It is without error, except for copying and translation errors. (2 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:1. See also: The Bible, Why I Believe the Bible, and Biblical Errors.)
There is only one God - the Father. The Holy Spirit is God's power. (John 17:3, Luke 1:35, Deuteronomy 6:4. See also God, Jesus and the Crucifixion, and The Trinity.)
Jesus is the Son of God, and a human being, through his mother Mary. (Luke 1:30-31, John 3:18.See also God, Jesus and the Crucifixion, The Trinity)
Man is mortal, having no existence when dead. (Psalm 6:5, Isaiah 38:18, Acts 2:29,34)
By living a sinless life, ending with his sacrificial death by crucifixion, Jesus has opened the way of salvation from death. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Corinthians 5:7, 1 Corinthians15: 20-23, Galatians 3:27-29)
Belief and baptism are essential steps to salvation. (Mark 16:16. See also Baptism and Salvation.)
God raised Jesus from death. Jesus is currently in Heaven, on God's right hand. He will one day return. (Acts 10:40, Romans 8:34, Acts 1:11)
When Jesus returns, he will raise his "sleeping" followers from death and grant immortality to the faithful who have tried to live by God's precepts. (1 Corinthians 15:20-22)
His followers will help him to rule, bringing justice, righteousness and peace to the whole world - the Kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 15:23-26)

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#12

Post by puritan lad » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:57 am

My "no" vote explained.

Christadelphians, just like Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults, claim to have their theology based on "original" apostolic doctrines. They have a number of troubling teachings, but the one thing that all of these groups have in common is that they reject the Trinity, and more specifically, the divinity of Christ. In their view, Christ was simply a man, not God. Such a view is obviously heretical. It is nothing new. In ancient times, there were similar cults such as Arianism, Patrapassianism, Dynamic monarchianism, Modalism, Socinianism, etc. All of these groups were a little different, but they all had one thing in common. They all rejected the Trinity, and they all were considered heretics. Their teachings were heresy then, and they are heresy now.

The Bible clearly, over and over again, reiterates the diety of Christ.

Hebrews 1:8
"But to the Son He says: “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom”"

If God the Father calls His own son "God", why should we even bother with the so-called "explanations" of man. Jesus Christ was "God...made manifest in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16). Jesus was "YHWH Tsidkenu", JEHOVAH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Jeremiah 23:5-6). Jesus shared in God's Glory before the world was (John 17:5), the same glory that the Father adamantly states that He will not share with another (Isaiah 42:8). God purchased the church with His own blood (Acts 20:28), the blood of the Son. He is "Mighty God, Everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6). He is "the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,..., “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). These are just a few of the Scriptures that unmistakably identify Jesus as God, thus forcing cultists to play word games in order to deny this fact.

Christadelphians are just one in a long line of such cults. They aren't the first to deny Christ's diety, and they won't be the last. The Pharisees were the first, at least in the Christian era.

John 8:56-58
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

As a result of this proclamation, the Jews took up stones in order to stone Him (John 8:59). They knew very well what Christ was claiming.
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#13

Post by Fortigurn » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:11 pm

puritan lad wrote:My "no" vote explained.

Christadelphians, just like Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults, claim to have their theology based on "original" apostolic doctrines. They have a number of troubling teachings, but the one thing that all of these groups have in common is that they reject the Trinity, and more specifically, the divinity of Christ. In their view, Christ was simply a man, not God. Such a view is obviously heretical. It is nothing new.
It is certainly nothing new. It's the teaching of the Old Testament that there is one God, the Father, and that the Christ would be a man appointed by God (though also the son of God).
In ancient times, there were similar cults such as Arianism, Patrapassianism, Dynamic monarchianism, Modalism, Socinianism, etc. All of these groups were a little different, but they all had one thing in common. They all rejected the Trinity, and they all were considered heretics. Their teachings were heresy then, and they are heresy now.
That's a little misleading, since a number of those beliefs actaully preceded the trinity (which was itself the result of the gradual development of a number of different beliefs).
The Bible clearly, over and over again, reiterates the diety of Christ.

Hebrews 1:8
"But to the Son He says: “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom”"

If God the Father calls His own son "God", why should we even bother with the so-called "explanations" of man. Jesus Christ was "God...made manifest in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16). Jesus was "YHWH Tsidkenu", JEHOVAH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Jeremiah 23:5-6). Jesus shared in God's Glory before the world was (John 17:5), the same glory that the Father adamantly states that He will not share with another (Isaiah 42:8). God purchased the church with His own blood (Acts 20:28), the blood of the Son. He is "Mighty God, Everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6). He is "the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,..., “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). These are just a few of the Scriptures that unmistakably identify Jesus as God, thus forcing cultists to play word games in order to deny this fact.

Christadelphians are just one in a long line of such cults. They aren't the first to deny Christ's diety, and they won't be the last. The Pharisees were the first, at least in the Christian era.

John 8:56-58
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

As a result of this proclamation, the Jews took up stones in order to stone Him (John 8:59). They knew very well what Christ was claiming.
All your verses (most of which don't say that Jesus is God), are addressed here.

It is a simple principle that an inferred doctrine must give way to an explicit doctrine. You spent all your time talking about Jesus as God, as if merely proving that Jesus is God proves the trinity.

You did so because you know that there are no passages in the Bible which define God as three persons in one being (it's an inferred doctrine).

The trinity has all the authority of the doctrine of purgatory, and was formed in a similar way.

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#14

Post by puritan lad » Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:37 am

See what I mean? Word games.

This is the name he will go by:
'The Lord has provided us with justice.'

What kind of "name" is that?

His name is "YHWH Tsidkenu", JEHOVAH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Where in the world does the term "provided" come from?)

It's a shame that these people have to rewrite all of these scriptures to support their heretical doctrines.

See also http://www.lamblion.net/EBooks/false_citations.pdf
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#15

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:00 am

puritan lad wrote:See what I mean? Word games.

This is the name he will go by:
'The Lord has provided us with justice.'

What kind of "name" is that?

His name is "YHWH Tsidkenu", JEHOVAH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Where in the world does the term "provided" come from?)

It's a shame that these people have to rewrite all of these scriptures to support their heretical doctrines.
Ironically, the people to whom you refer (whom you accuse of 'heretical doctrines'), are the people responsible for the New English Translation, which is the translation quoted there:
Jeremiah 23:
6 Under his rule Judah will enjoy safety

and Israel will live in security.

This is the name he will go by:

'The Lord has provided us with justice.'
I happen to know one of the committee members of the NET. I'm sure he would be vastly amused by the NET committee being accused of 'word games' intended to 'rewrite all of these scriptures to support their heretical doctrines'.

For those interested, the NET committee are to be found here. You'll find 'heretics' such as Daniel B Wallace, PhD (Dallas Theological Seminary).

Their doctrinal summary statement is this:
The Bible

We believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, without error in the original writings, the complete revelation of His will for the salvation of men, and the divine and final authority for all Christian faith and life. When we say inspired and without error, we mean we believe this to be verbal, plenary, infallible, and inerrant throughout.

God the Father

We believe in one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect and eternally existing in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God the Son

We believe that Jesus Christ is true God and true man, having been conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He died on the cross as the sacrifice for our sins according to the Scriptures. Further, He arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where, at the right hand of the Majesty on High, He now sits as our High Priest and Advocate.

God the Holy Spirit

We believe that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and during this age to convict men, regenerate the believing sinner, and indwell, guide, instruct, and empower the believer for godly living and service.

Mankind

We believe that man was created in the image of God but fell into sin and is therefore lost. Only through personal faith in Jesus Christ and regeneration by the Holy Spirit can salvation and spiritual life be obtained.

Substitionary Death of Christ

We believe that the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ and His resurrection provide the only ground for justification and salvation for all who believe, and only such as receive Jesus Christ through faith are born of the Holy Spirit, and thus become children of God.

The Church

We believe that the true Church is composed of all such persons who through personal faith in Jesus Christ have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and are united together in the body of Christ of which He is Head.

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Head of the Church, and that every local church has the right under Christ to decide and govern its own affairs.

Eschatology

We believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead; of the believer to everlasting blessedness and joy with the Lord, of the unbeliever to judgment and everlasting conscious punishment.
Standard 'Reformed' theology, as you can see. But you accused them of 'rewriting the Bible to support their heretical doctrines'. :o

By the way, here's the NET footnote on that verse:
20tn Heb “his name will be called 'The Lord our righteousness'.”

sn The Hebrew word translated “justice” here is very broad in its usage, and it is hard to catch all the relevant nuances for this word in this context. It is used for “vindication” in legal contexts (see, e.g., Job 6:29), for “deliverance” or “salvation” in exilic contexts (see, e.g., Isa 58:8), and in the sense of ruling, judging with “justice” (see, e.g., Lev 19:15; Isa 32:1).

Here it probably sums up the justice that the Lord provides through raising up this ruler as well as the safety, security, and well-being that result (see vv. 5-6a). In the NT this takes on soteriological connotations (see 1 Cor 1:31 in its context).

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