Let Us make....in Our image

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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bizzt
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#16

Post by bizzt » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:17 am

Jesus must have been Whacko then if he was not God for he sure lied about himself
Rev 22:12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

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#17

Post by Canuckster1127 » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:24 pm

R7-12 wrote:The Supreme Deity can only be singular as He is essentially good, the source of all that is good and the only one who is good.

Thus two sources of good cannot exist co-eternally which results in two true Gods.

Jesus Christ declares his God and His Father as the only one who is good thereby excluding himself from co-equality and co-eternality (Matthew 19:17).

Scripture is clear, everlasting life is predicated upon knowing the Only True Theos and Jesus Christ who was sent by the Only True Theos and who therefore cannot be the Only True Theos (John 17:3).
If the Trinity were advocating 3 separated entities you would be right. As that is not what the Trinity postulates, you are creating a straw man argument.
R7-12 wrote:A proper translation of Phillipians 2:6-9 (the RSV is close) shows that Christ did not consider equality with his God and Father something to be grasped for as did the Adversary when he declared, "'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God...I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High" (Isaiah 14:13a & 14). Rather, he voluntarily gave up his life as a spirit son of God to become fully human so that he could qualify to become the Passover lamb of God and completely give his life for all creation. That is the concept of a whole burnt offering which pictured Christ and is also the reason nothing of the Passover meal was to remain until morning.

Christ humbled himself and was obedient as a human being to the point of real and complete death.

Christ was resurrected by his God and Father and accepted as the Wave Sheaf offering becoming the author of salvation. Therefore, his God and Father has exalted him and GIVEN him a name (a name from the Father) which is above every name (except his Father's).

The law requires the payment of life for sin, thus Christ could not be God as the Father is God because he would have to give up his life in the truest sense of what that simple concept means.

God cannot become a sacrifice unto Himself. In other words, God cannot offer Himself to Himself as the sacrifice - it is a logical absurdity and wholly unscriptural.

Dividing Christ into two natures was an attempt at explaining how a supposed God can die as a sacrifice and yet not die at the same time. It is unbiblical in concept and unsupported by scripture because it too is a logical absurdity.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, it's just my position on the matter.

R7-12
I appreciate that this is your opinion and I don't question its sincerity.

You need to be aware however that this position has essentially been known throughout Church History as the "Kenotic Heresy."

One link addressing it with appropriate exegesis is

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1542

Copyright does not allow for me to post the article here, but the link goes right to it and it is very thorough, referenced and addresses the historical as well as exegetical sources for this heresy as well as why the Church historically has rejected it.

I point it out not to offend, but because it is an essential issue where right understanding is essential.

I don't use the word heresy lightly. I hope others looking at this original post will take the time to read this and do other research. It is important. The nature of God and Christ are central to all we believe and without a right understanding of this then all that descends from this is meaningless.

The early Church addressed this and declared it heretical for a reason. It is no less heretical today. Unfortunately it is cropping up in several different areas of the Church, and not just the historical groups that have held to this teaching despite the early Church's rejection of it.

Bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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#18

Post by R7-12 » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:09 pm

I said,
The Supreme Deity can only be singular as He is essentially good, the source of all that is good and the only one who is good.

Thus two sources of good cannot exist co-eternally which results in two true Gods.

Jesus Christ declares his God and His Father as the only one who is good thereby excluding himself from co-equality and co-eternality (Matthew 19:17).

Scripture is clear, everlasting life is predicated upon knowing the Only True Theos and Jesus Christ who was sent by the Only True Theos and who therefore cannot be the Only True Theos (John 17:3).

If the Trinity were advocating 3 separated entities you would be right. As that is not what the Trinity postulates, you are creating a straw man argument.
The doctrine of the trinity asserts, without equivocation, that Jesus Christ is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father. Basic logic and the very meaning and understanding of the proper use of language requires that something which is described as having co-equal status with something else, denotes two distinct things or objects (in this case beings).

The same applies to co-eternity. One cannot be co-eternal with another and also be that other. It is a logical absurdity. Being co-equal with something requires two beings for the term to have any real meaning at all. If Jesus Christ was co-eternal with God the Father, then by necessity two true Gods are identified. A true God is an eternal being that has life inherent and is all-knowing and all-powerful. We know from Scripture that this cannot be possible for Christ did not have life inherent but was given life from his God and Father.

“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27“and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man” (John 5:26-27).

The text here demands two things. One, Christ did not have life in himself thus he is not God and cannot be either co-equal or co-eternal with God. Two, authority to execute judgment was given to Messiah from his Father and therefore Christ is not co-equal but rather in subjection to hid God and Father.

Which brings up another point. A co-equal, co-eternal all-knowing, all-powerful God cannot have a God over him, especially one which fathered him. Jesus Christ is continually referred to as having a God who is his Father.

In the following texts, God is referred to as the God and Father of Jesus Christ (Rom. 15:6, 2 Co2. 1:3; 11:31, Eph. 1:3; 4:6, Col. 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3).

Thus, I did not raise a strawman, but rather, IMO dealt with the logical absurdity inherent in the doctrine of the Trinity.

Jesus Christ is an elohim, which unfortunately is not translated into English any other way except God, and Satan is also an elohim (2 Cor. 4:4) as are all the angels of God. Even Moses was given this rank by God in his dealings with Pharaoh (“I have made you elohim (God) to Pharaoh” Ex. 7:1). Moses was the direct representative of God to him with Aaron as his prophet just as Christ is God's direct representative as prophet (and High Priest) to man.

It was stated,
You need to be aware however that this position has essentially been known throughout Church History as the "Kenotic Heresy."
Incorrect. You misapprehend the concepts and texts and thus misrepresent the Biblical position.

Kenosis:
"The advocates of this heresy, in an effort to assume an orthodox posture, try to say that the Son somehow "remains God," though He has given up all parts of that being." (Quoted from here)

I have never asserted, and the Bible does not assert that Messiah “had to give up some, several, or even all the powers and attributes of God and "live as a mere man." yet “the son somehow remains God.”

Christ gave up his spirit life to become a man and die completely for the sins of creation. This is what the law required. Messiah was therefore completely dependant upon his God and Father to raise him from DEATH as He promised — and so He did. Thus Christ became the firstborn of CREATION (Col. 1:15). He was also the beginning of the spiritual creation of His Father (Rev. 3:14). The sin offering was a “whole burnt offering' and just as the Passover meal which represented Christ, was to have nothing left over until the morning signifying that nothing of the life of Christ remained when he died. He was a whole offering.

Messiah never was nor ever will be Almighty God. The YHVH of Hosts, the Most High El, the Elohim of elohim is the Supreme Deity of the universe and His name is Eloah and is singular and admits of no plurality. Messiah was given the title of Yahovah as were other angels and even men. They are representatives of the Most High and thus are given this rank for a purpose, by delegation of the Father. These facts are not understood by Trinitarians.

All the angels are sons of God, Satan is a son of God, and the Messiah is the son of God and all are elohim. This is according to Scripture as it is written and cannot be overcome by the doctrine of the Trinity.

The elect of God at the resurrection will become spirit sons of the Most High God and thus become true brothers and co-heirs of Christ and will also be elohim. This too is according to Scripture.

Before he was the Messiah he was the Face of God, the Captain of the armies of God, the Angel of the Presence, the Angel of YHVH, and the elohim of Israel, among other ranks and titles. He is a created angel and was given the rank of morning star just as Lucifer who was the “covering cherub.” See Ez. 28:16, Job. 1:6, 2:1, 38:1-7, 2 Peter 1:19, Rev. 1:1, 22:16, 2:28.

Consider Zechariah 8:12. It cannot be reconciled by those who hold the doctrine of the Trinity.

I have spoken the truth to you.

R7-12

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#19

Post by Canuckster1127 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:10 am

R7-12 wrote:I said,
The Supreme Deity can only be singular as He is essentially good, the source of all that is good and the only one who is good.

Thus two sources of good cannot exist co-eternally which results in two true Gods.

Jesus Christ declares his God and His Father as the only one who is good thereby excluding himself from co-equality and co-eternality (Matthew 19:17).

Scripture is clear, everlasting life is predicated upon knowing the Only True Theos and Jesus Christ who was sent by the Only True Theos and who therefore cannot be the Only True Theos (John 17:3).

If the Trinity were advocating 3 separated entities you would be right. As that is not what the Trinity postulates, you are creating a straw man argument.
The doctrine of the trinity asserts, without equivocation, that Jesus Christ is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father. Basic logic and the very meaning and understanding of the proper use of language requires that something which is described as having co-equal status with something else, denotes two distinct things or objects (in this case beings).

The same applies to co-eternity. One cannot be co-eternal with another and also be that other. It is a logical absurdity. Being co-equal with something requires two beings for the term to have any real meaning at all. If Jesus Christ was co-eternal with God the Father, then by necessity two true Gods are identified. A true God is an eternal being that has life inherent and is all-knowing and all-powerful. We know from Scripture that this cannot be possible for Christ did not have life inherent but was given life from his God and Father.

“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27“and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man” (John 5:26-27).

The text here demands two things. One, Christ did not have life in himself thus he is not God and cannot be either co-equal or co-eternal with God. Two, authority to execute judgment was given to Messiah from his Father and therefore Christ is not co-equal but rather in subjection to hid God and Father.

Which brings up another point. A co-equal, co-eternal all-knowing, all-powerful God cannot have a God over him, especially one which fathered him. Jesus Christ is continually referred to as having a God who is his Father.

In the following texts, God is referred to as the God and Father of Jesus Christ (Rom. 15:6, 2 Co2. 1:3; 11:31, Eph. 1:3; 4:6, Col. 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3).

Thus, I did not raise a strawman, but rather, IMO dealt with the logical absurdity inherent in the doctrine of the Trinity.

Jesus Christ is an elohim, which unfortunately is not translated into English any other way except God, and Satan is also an elohim (2 Cor. 4:4) as are all the angels of God. Even Moses was given this rank by God in his dealings with Pharaoh (“I have made you elohim (God) to Pharaoh” Ex. 7:1). Moses was the direct representative of God to him with Aaron as his prophet just as Christ is God's direct representative as prophet (and High Priest) to man.

It was stated,
You need to be aware however that this position has essentially been known throughout Church History as the "Kenotic Heresy."
Incorrect. You misapprehend the concepts and texts and thus misrepresent the Biblical position.

Kenosis:
"The advocates of this heresy, in an effort to assume an orthodox posture, try to say that the Son somehow "remains God," though He has given up all parts of that being." (Quoted from here)

I have never asserted, and the Bible does not assert that Messiah “had to give up some, several, or even all the powers and attributes of God and "live as a mere man." yet “the son somehow remains God.”

Christ gave up his spirit life to become a man and die completely for the sins of creation. This is what the law required. Messiah was therefore completely dependant upon his God and Father to raise him from DEATH as He promised — and so He did. Thus Christ became the firstborn of CREATION (Col. 1:15). He was also the beginning of the spiritual creation of His Father (Rev. 3:14). The sin offering was a “whole burnt offering' and just as the Passover meal which represented Christ, was to have nothing left over until the morning signifying that nothing of the life of Christ remained when he died. He was a whole offering.

Messiah never was nor ever will be Almighty God. The YHVH of Hosts, the Most High El, the Elohim of elohim is the Supreme Deity of the universe and His name is Eloah and is singular and admits of no plurality. Messiah was given the title of Yahovah as were other angels and even men. They are representatives of the Most High and thus are given this rank for a purpose, by delegation of the Father. These facts are not understood by Trinitarians.

All the angels are sons of God, Satan is a son of God, and the Messiah is the son of God and all are elohim. This is according to Scripture as it is written and cannot be overcome by the doctrine of the Trinity.

The elect of God at the resurrection will become spirit sons of the Most High God and thus become true brothers and co-heirs of Christ and will also be elohim. This too is according to Scripture.

Before he was the Messiah he was the Face of God, the Captain of the armies of God, the Angel of the Presence, the Angel of YHVH, and the elohim of Israel, among other ranks and titles. He is a created angel and was given the rank of morning star just as Lucifer who was the “covering cherub.” See Ez. 28:16, Job. 1:6, 2:1, 38:1-7, 2 Peter 1:19, Rev. 1:1, 22:16, 2:28.

Consider Zechariah 8:12. It cannot be reconciled by those who hold the doctrine of the Trinity.

I have spoken the truth to you.

R7-12
R7-12

Thank you for clarifying your position.

I misidentified the heresy you hold to, and for that I apologize. It remains nevertheless heresy.

Again, you do not understand and are not presenting the doctrine of the trinity correctly.

Within Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity states that God is a single Being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a communion of three persons (personae, prosopa): Father (the Source, the Eternal Majesty); the Son (the eternal Logos or Word, incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth); and the Holy Spirit. This doctrine has been stated as "One God in Three Persons," all three of whom, as distinct and co-eternal "persons" or "hypostases," share a single Divine essence, being, or nature.

Your denial of the divinity of Christ apparently stems from your belief that God is limited by what you determine to be logical. In so doing, you create God in your own image and you deny basic truths that are in the Bible and that have been held by the greater body of the Church from the very time of Christ until the present.

I repost, for the benefit of others who will view this thread and not perhaps be familiar with other threads, from the main board, the voliminous scriptural proofs that demonstrate your reducing Christ to a created being as inconsistent with the whole counsel of God in the Scriptures.

http://www.godandscience.org/cults/songod.html

Jesus Christ is Jehovah (YHVH)
The Deity of Jesus Christ from the Scriptures
by Rich Deem

Characteristic of God or Jehovah followed by the same attributed to Jesus Christ

Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? 1 Chronicles 29:11, Philippians 3:20-21
Who is omniscient (all knowing)? 1 John 3:20, Colossians 2:2-3
Who is omnipresent (present everywhere)? Proverbs 15:3, 2 Corinthians 2:14
Who is Lord of Sabbath? Genesis 2:3, Matthew 12:8
Who is the great "I am?" Exodus 3:14, John 8:58
Who is the only creator? Isaiah 44:24, John 1:3
Who is the only savior? Isaiah 43:11, 45:21, Acts 4:12
Who will judge mankind? Isaiah 3:13, 14, 2 Corinthians 5:10
Who will judge between the sheep and goats? Ezekiel 34:17, Matthew 25:31-33
Who sent the prophets? Jeremiah 7:25, Matthew 23:34
Who resurrected Jesus? Acts 4:10, John 10:17-18
Who is "coming in glory?" Isaiah 40:5, Matthew 24:30
Who is our Father? Isaiah 63:16, Isaiah 9:6
Who is the "first and last?" Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 1:17
Who is Rock of salvation? 2 Samuel 22:32, 1 Corinthians 10:4
Who is Stone of stumbling? Isaiah 8:13-15, 1 Peter 2:8
"One crying in the wilderness" came to prepare a way for whom? Isaiah 40:3, Matthew 3:3
Who is eternal? Genesis 21:33, Micah 5:2
Who is the fountain of living waters? Jeremiah 17:13, John 4:10-14
Who resurrects the dead? Acts 26:8, John 6:40
Who gives rewards to man? Isaiah 40:10, Matthew 16:27
Who has all authority and power? 1 Chronicles 29:11, Matthew 28:18
Who gives power and authority to man? Psalms 68:35, Luke 9:1
Who forgives sin? 2 Chronicles 7:14, Matthew 9:6
Who sent the Holy Spirit? John 14:16, John 16:7
Who has the greatest name? Nehemiah 9:5, Philippians 2:9
Whom are we to worship? Exodus 34:14, Revelation 5:12-13
Who is the good Shepherd? Genesis 48:15, John 10:14
Who searches for the lost sheep of Israel? Ezekiel 34:11, Matthew 15:24
Who is "Lord of Lords?" Deuteronomy 10:17, Revelation 17:14
To whom shall every knee bow? Isaiah 45:22-23, Philippians 2:10
Who is the righteous branch of David? Jeremiah 23:5-6, Jeremiah 33:15
Who alone is Holy? 1 Samuel 2:2, Acts 3:14
Whose blood cleanses us? Acts 20:28, 1 John 1:7
The world was created for whom? Proverbs 16:4, Colossians 1:16
Who is above all? Nehemiah 9:6, Romans 9:5
Who is forever the same? Psalms 102:24-27, Hebrews 1:8-12
Who is our light? Psalms 27:1, John 8:12
Who is the way or path? Psalms 16:11, John 14:6
Who is in charge of the angels? Psalms 103:20, 2 Thesselonians 1:7
Who gives us rest? Exodus 33:14, Matthew 11:28
Who gives eternal life? Proverbs 19:23, John 3:36
We are the bride of whom? Isaiah 54:5, 2 Corinthians 11:2
Who tests the heart and mind? Jeremiah 17:10, Revelation 2:23

Bible Verses Stating Jesus is God

Statement Verse

Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, "God with us." Matthew 1:23

And fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us!" and, "God has visited His people!" Luke 7:16

In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God. John 1:1

No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. John 1:18

He [Jesus]... was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:18

I and the Father are one. John 10:30

The Jews answered Him [Jesus], "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." John 10:33

You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. John 13:13

Jesus said to him, "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, `Show us the Father?'" John 14:9

And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5

Thomas answered and said to Him [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28

...the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4

...Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, Philippians 2:6

...to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, Colossians 2:9

God was manifest in the flesh... 1 Timothy 3:16

...our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; 1 Timothy 6:15

God...in these last days has spoken to us in His Son...And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature... Hebrews 1:2-3

But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever... Hebrews 1:8

...the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; Titus 2:13

Simon Peter ... by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1

And on His robe and on His thigh He [Jesus] has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." Revelation 19:16

____________________________________________________

You've had the opportunity to express your opinion and I and others have listened to what you have to say.

I remind you, for the second time, that this board does not exist for the purpose of endlessly debating and rehashing the basic tenets of the Christian Faith. Other locations are available for that, if that is your desire.

It is clear that you sincerely hold to your beliefs and are not here for the purpose of seeking truth, having already made up your mind. That is your perogative. It is my perogative as a moderator of this board, to enforce the Discussion Guidelines which state:
This board is a part of Evidence for God from Science (G&S), a Christian website, which serves to provide a defense and persuasive case for Christianity as well as encouragement and instruction for Christian people. Therefore, this message board is intended to reflect that spirit--serving as a place where sincere seekers can ask questions, and where faithful Christians can receive encouragement and instruction. This board is not for those who have already decisively made up their mind that Christ is "not" for them; who merely wish to debate and argue against Christianity, ignoring any and all reasons presented. Therefore, those who are Christian or haven't made up their minds are encouraged to join, while others who merely wish to attack and try to discredit Christianity are discouraged.
FOr those wanting more information on Arianism I append the following information below.

For those wanting to know more about Arianism and why it was refuted by the Church in the 4th Century and deserves continued rejection, here are resources that you may use to learn more about this issue.

http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/arianism-schaff.html

(Read the whole article. This is just the conclusion.)
Arianism was refuted by an array of scriptural passages, which teach directly or indirectly the divinity of Christ, and his essential equality with the Father. The conception of a created Creator, who existed before the world, and yet himself began to exist, was shown to be self-contradictory and untenable. There can be no middle being between Creator and creature; no time before the world, as tune is itself a part of the world, or the form under which it exists successively; nor can the unchangeableness of the Father, on which Anus laid great stress, be maintained, except on the ground of the eternity of his Fatherhood, which, of course, implies the eternity of the Sonship. Athanasius charges Arianism with dualism, and even polytheism, and with destroying the whole doctrine of salvation. For if the Son is a creature, man still remains separated, as before, from God: no creature can redeem other creatures, and unite them with God. If Christ is not divine, much less can we be partakers of the divine nature, and in any real sense children of God.

The Arian system is a refined form of Paganism, and substitutes a created demigod for the eternal uncreated Logos. It lowers Christianity to a merely relative value. It separates God and the world by an impassable gulf, and makes a real reconciliation and atonement impossible. It represented the Erastian principle of the Byzantine Empire, and associated itself with the secular political power, without which it soon lost its vitality. Its logical tendency is downward to Socinianism, Unitarianism, and Rationalism, until the untenable conception of a secondary God, who originated before the world, out of nothing, gives way to the idea of Christ as a mere man. The cause of Christian civilization was bound up with the defeat of Arianism, and the triumph of the Nicene doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0622.htm

(deposition of Arius at the Nicene Council)

http://christiandefense.org/jw_objecttrin.htm

(Primarily focuses on Jehovahs Witnesses, but they are typical of other arianistic groups.)

http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/t ... fended.htm

(Many articles linked. Pay particular attention to the ones dealing with the parallels with the development of the canon by Trinitarians, the traditional attacks of JW's and Christadelphians.)

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin01.html

(excellent conglomeration of scholarly articles and defences of the Trinity)

That should do for now.

What is being displayed here is not new. It is age-old and goes back to the early church.

Bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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#20

Post by bizzt » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:46 am

Good Summary Bart! Thread Locked!

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