Darwin's Doubt

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#16

Post by Philip » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:58 am

Meyer is talking about the Cambrian Explosion.
That reminds me - no more of my wife's chili! :shock:

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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#17

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:27 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:58 am
Meyer is talking about the Cambrian Explosion.
That reminds me - no more of my wife's chili! :shock:
I believe you are referring to the Colon Explosion.

:knight:
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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#18

Post by Philip » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:00 pm

:flush: And MY jokes are bad???

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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#19

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:35 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:00 pm
:flush: And MY jokes are bad???
Is that a rhetorical question?
:mrgreen:
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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#20

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:07 pm

RickD wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:27 pm
Philip wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:58 am
Meyer is talking about the Cambrian Explosion.
That reminds me - no more of my wife's chili! :shock:
I believe you are referring to the Colon Explosion.

:knight:
Makes a lot of sense. Meyer must've got it so bad time was warped and the mutations from it caused the Cambrian explosion.
Think about it, we are here because of poop. Worms eat it, plants grow from it, we eat plants, we eat shrimp crap a lot, we are crap.
Then the bible says we are like lowly worms before salvation. Worms, who like earthworms, have potential. We can sift through crap and improve the world around us.

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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#21

Post by Davy » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:53 am

RickD wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:38 am

Meyer isn't talking about the supposed gap that Gap theorists refer to. Meyer is talking about the Cambrian Explosion.
There's actually many gaps in the fossil record, but this large one was unique, even as evolutionists admit:

“It is as though they [fossils] were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists. …Both schools of thought (Punctuationists and Gradualists) despise so-called scientific creationists equally, and both agree that the major gaps are real, that they are true imperfections in the fossil record. The only alternative explanation of the sudden appearance of so many complex animal types in the Cambrian era is divine creation and (we) both reject this alternative.” (Dawkins, Richard, The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, pp. 229-230.)

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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#22

Post by RickD » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:15 am

Davy wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:53 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:38 am

Meyer isn't talking about the supposed gap that Gap theorists refer to. Meyer is talking about the Cambrian Explosion.
There's actually many gaps in the fossil record, but this large one was unique, even as evolutionists admit:

“It is as though they [fossils] were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists. …Both schools of thought (Punctuationists and Gradualists) despise so-called scientific creationists equally, and both agree that the major gaps are real, that they are true imperfections in the fossil record. The only alternative explanation of the sudden appearance of so many complex animal types in the Cambrian era is divine creation and (we) both reject this alternative.” (Dawkins, Richard, The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, pp. 229-230.)
Still, must make unnecessary leaps and twists to the biblical text, to arrive at a Gap Theory interpretation.

There's a reason why no real biblical scholars hold to the Gap Theory. It's because the Gap Theory butchers the biblical text.
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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#23

Post by Philip » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:06 pm

So we won't be redundant around here (anymore than we often are :mrgreen: ), if Davy wants to debate GAP, he should start reading through the back and forth arguments put forth here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41735&hilit=gap+theory

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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#24

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:14 pm

Davy wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:53 am
RickD wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:38 am

Meyer isn't talking about the supposed gap that Gap theorists refer to. Meyer is talking about the Cambrian Explosion.
There's actually many gaps in the fossil record, but this large one was unique, even as evolutionists admit:

“It is as though they [fossils] were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists. …Both schools of thought (Punctuationists and Gradualists) despise so-called scientific creationists equally, and both agree that the major gaps are real, that they are true imperfections in the fossil record. The only alternative explanation of the sudden appearance of so many complex animal types in the Cambrian era is divine creation and (we) both reject this alternative.” (Dawkins, Richard, The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, pp. 229-230.)
The Cambrian explosion happened over several million years from what I remember. It wasn't instantaneous, though yes it is a rather quick jump from the precambrian life forms before.
Kind of reminds me of the Anthropocene, which has been around for probably several decades to a couple centuries. Before that, humanity was building up in technology down through the Holocene and Pleistocene.

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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#25

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:29 am

DBowling wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:00 am
After searching the web I found the following 8 part 'ADD friendly' video series from the John Ankerberg show. Each episode is around 25 minutes long.

Stephen Meyer & Darwin's Doubt on the John Ankerberg Show
Part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0meM7P9yrsk
Part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKMAL_809yk
Part 3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR_OcJQd7Wk
Part 4 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw76AuRckAA
Part 5 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUd24WZijDI
Part 6 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeNFQGsM-7k
Part 7 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqM4gPAS6is
Part 8 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPzqymzib_0
I think Meyer is a Gap Theorist but he does not reveal it for the sake of Intelligent Design and how they don't want to get bogged down in debating creation interpretations.But Meyer has said that it would surpise people which creation interpretation he holds to but that he won't reveal it so it has to be the Gap Theory.ID plus the Gap Theory would destroy materialism and evolution it is based on.

I really don't see how you cannot see how the Gap Theory is already proven true based on just the fossil record because they prove the former world existed and perished also,plus that it was a totally different kind of world than this world we now live in is.Meanwhile the fossils cannot prove life evolves.Tell an evolutionist to show you a fossil of a trilobite and ask him to prove it was evolving LOL! I can say it is proof the former world existed and that it was one of many kinds of life that lived in the former world and it was a totally different kind of world because we do not have trilobites in this world we now live in,we are living in the second earth age after the first one perished completely.We have shrimp,crabs,lobsters,etc in this world but no trilobites.I have real proof and evidence behind what I'm saying,it is not just preaching.Challenge any other creation interpretation to prove their's is true,without them just declaring it true and compare.So the Gap Theory is still true today after 160 years of evolution.Evidence will always outshine preachers just preaching their interpretation is true without proof.
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Davy (Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:30 pm)
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#26

Post by DBowling » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:34 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:29 am
I really don't see how you cannot see how the Gap Theory is already proven true based on just the fossil record because they prove the former world existed and perished
Because the Gap Theory is directly contradicted by the fossil record (and Scripture).

The fossil record shows continuity between the 'former world' and the 'current world' not discontinuity as the Gap Theory asserts.

There are many examples, but two specific examples that we have already discussed are:
1. Penguins - The fossil record shows that penguins existed in the 'former world' and penguins still exist in the 'current world'.
And Genesis 1:21 explicitly states that God created (bara) birds on Day 5, which takes place after Genesis 1:2.
So the Gap Theory is directly contradicted by both the fossil record and Scripture.
2. Neanderthals - The fossil record also shows that Neanderthals, which existed in the 'former world', coexisted with Human beings (species homo sapiens sapiens). So if humans were created by God on Day 6 (Genesis 1:26-27), then Neanderthals also existed during Day 6. And we have yet another contradiction between the Gap Theory and both the fossil record and Scripture.

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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#27

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:10 pm

DBowling wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:34 am
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:29 am
I really don't see how you cannot see how the Gap Theory is already proven true based on just the fossil record because they prove the former world existed and perished
Because the Gap Theory is directly contradicted by the fossil record (and Scripture).

The fossil record shows continuity between the 'former world' and the 'current world' not discontinuity as the Gap Theory asserts.

There are many examples, but two specific examples that we have already discussed are:
1. Penguins - The fossil record shows that penguins existed in the 'former world' and penguins still exist in the 'current world'.
And Genesis 1:21 explicitly states that God created (bara) birds on Day 5, which takes place after Genesis 1:2.
So the Gap Theory is directly contradicted by both the fossil record and Scripture.
2. Neanderthals - The fossil record also shows that Neanderthals, which existed in the 'former world', coexisted with Human beings (species homo sapiens sapiens). So if humans were created by God on Day 6 (Genesis 1:26-27), then Neanderthals also existed during Day 6. And we have yet another contradiction between the Gap Theory and both the fossil record and Scripture.

So you say that just because certian kinds of life was in both worlds it means we do not have evidence of two totally different worlds? Because we do. Can you prove neanderthals were living here with humans on day 6? Because Gap Theorists from studying the bible predicted Pre-Adamite races existed in the former world and would be found and they were found.I've tried to show you from the bible befor how they knew they existed but you just could'nt see it for some reason. Hominids,Cro-magnon and neanderthals were found which confirmed Gap Theorists correct. Remember they only read the KJV bible back then,there were not all of these translations we have today but I digress.

Now I will admit that it might be possible that neanderthals did exist with humans as you suggest but it cannot be proven, Therefore since we do have evidence of two different worlds we can asume neanderthals were not in this world just like all of the many,many other kinds of extinct life. It is much easier to do because we do have evidence of two different worlds if we look at the fossil record and compare it to the kinds of life we have in this world.

I do know of some Gap Theorists that that interprets Genesis 1 and 2 like I think you do that God created man and woman male and female on the sixth day and these were neanderthals then God created Adam and Eve later and it could be translated that way however this world was made only about 6000 years ago (Ussher's Chronology)and neanderthals were living much much further back in time. This is why I place neanderthals in the former world with the hominids and Cro-magnon.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#28

Post by DBowling » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:44 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:10 pm
DBowling wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:34 am
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:29 am
I really don't see how you cannot see how the Gap Theory is already proven true based on just the fossil record because they prove the former world existed and perished
Because the Gap Theory is directly contradicted by the fossil record (and Scripture).

The fossil record shows continuity between the 'former world' and the 'current world' not discontinuity as the Gap Theory asserts.

There are many examples, but two specific examples that we have already discussed are:
1. Penguins - The fossil record shows that penguins existed in the 'former world' and penguins still exist in the 'current world'.
And Genesis 1:21 explicitly states that God created (bara) birds on Day 5, which takes place after Genesis 1:2.
So the Gap Theory is directly contradicted by both the fossil record and Scripture.
2. Neanderthals - The fossil record also shows that Neanderthals, which existed in the 'former world', coexisted with Human beings (species homo sapiens sapiens). So if humans were created by God on Day 6 (Genesis 1:26-27), then Neanderthals also existed during Day 6. And we have yet another contradiction between the Gap Theory and both the fossil record and Scripture.

So you say that just because certian kinds of life was in both worlds it means we do not have evidence of two totally different worlds? Because we do. Can you prove neanderthals were living here with humans on day 6?
This article from Encyclopedia Britannica provides a nice overview of some of the evidence:
https://www.britannica.com/place/Vindija
Vindija, site of paleoanthropological excavations in the Hrvatsko Zagorje region of Croatia, known for Neanderthal remains found there in the 1970s; Neanderthal DNA has since been successfully isolated from some specimens. The Vindija cave also contains a long, rich sequence of artifacts from the Paleolithic Period dating from more than 200,000 years ago to about 10,000 years ago. The late age and the characteristics of some of the fossils and associated artifacts found at Vindija suggest that Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) and early modern humans (H. sapiens) elsewhere in Europe coexisted for a time.

The oldest fossils from the cave date to about 40,000 years ago and consist of immature and adult pieces of braincase, browridge, upper and lower jaws, isolated teeth, and limb bones. They exhibit a suite of typically Neanderthal skull and dental features and a few aspects of the limb bones. However, despite having body sizes similar to other Neanderthal specimens, these individuals have rather small faces. Also, the browridges are relatively thin and are less projecting than those of other Neanderthals, the jaws are small and exhibit incipient chins, and the shoulder joints closely resemble those of more-recent humans. This evidence indicates a reduction of Neanderthal features in these relatively late central European Neanderthals and thus lessens their contrast with early modern humans in the region.

The more-recent fossils exhibit similar reduction of the brow and lower jaw while retaining several typical Neanderthal features of the face, teeth, and limbs. However, like the Neanderthal remains found at Saint-Césaire in France, they are associated with evidence of a technology normally associated with early modern humans. Moreover, these remains have been directly dated to about 34,000 years ago, which makes them among the most recent Neanderthals known. Their age also means that they were contemporaneous with early modern humans known from neighbouring areas of eastern Europe. This indicates that, when early modern humans spread westward across Europe sometime after about 36,000 years ago, they did not quickly drive the Neanderthals to extinction but lived in neighbouring regions for several millennia. Some scientists suggest that cultural differences between the two groups must therefore have been modest and that there was ample opportunity for them to exchange mates where they came into contact. Others assert that the groups did not interbreed.

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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#29

Post by Philip » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:48 pm

"Vindija, site of paleoanthropological excavations in the Hrvatsko Zagorje region of Croatia, known for Neanderthal remains found there in the 1970s; Neanderthal DNA has since been successfully isolated from some specimens."
This outtake is unclear at how old the specimens are deemed that DNA was successfully extracted from. However, it would appear that the ages of the other artifacts, etc., would certainly cross over with what is known of the approximate ages of early human fossils and artifacts.

Of course, the big picture greatly conflicts with the supposed dates for Adam and Eve and the belief that ALL humans came from them. Unless there is something I'm missing, that doesn't seem possible - but that's another issue entirely.

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Re: Darwin's Doubt

#30

Post by DBowling » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:07 pm

Philip wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:48 pm
Of course, the big picture greatly conflicts with the supposed dates for Adam and Eve and the belief that ALL humans came from them. Unless there is something I'm missing, that doesn't seem possible - but that's another issue entirely.
Which is precisely why I have come to the conclusion that both Anthropology and Scripture agree that the Biblical/historical Adam and Eve are NOT the genetic progenitors of all humans.

And its not just me... Evangelical scholars such as John Walton and Michael Heiser have both laid a Scriptural foundation for the premise that God created mankind/humans (Genesis 1:26-27) some time before the time of the Biblical/historic Adam and Eve (Genesis 2).

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