Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21374
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 200 times
Been liked: 1077 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#16

Post by RickD » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:43 am

ACB wrote:

I think we all know scientists are not looking at it from a biblical perspective or creation perspective,but they are looking at it from an evolution perspective and making it fit into that.Evolution is their religion even if they reject a biblical perspective. I know its not important to Audi but most creation perspectives have an answer when it comes to science and as more is discovered alot of times it validates more of God's word. Now based on the posts Kurieuo made I'm not so sure this is true now,obviously there are different interpretations of the data even in science. Still I think the ones who believe they did mate are the majority when it comes to evolution science.
First of all, scientists shouldn't be practicing science if they're looking at it from a biblical perspective, creation perspective, or an evolutionary perspective.

Letting the evidence speak for itself, is how scientists should perform their work.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4928
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 168 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#17

Post by abelcainsbrother » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:54 am

RickD wrote:
ACB wrote:

I think we all know scientists are not looking at it from a biblical perspective or creation perspective,but they are looking at it from an evolution perspective and making it fit into that.Evolution is their religion even if they reject a biblical perspective. I know its not important to Audi but most creation perspectives have an answer when it comes to science and as more is discovered alot of times it validates more of God's word. Now based on the posts Kurieuo made I'm not so sure this is true now,obviously there are different interpretations of the data even in science. Still I think the ones who believe they did mate are the majority when it comes to evolution science.
First of all, scientists shouldn't be practicing science if they're looking at it from a biblical perspective, creation perspective, or an evolutionary perspective.

Letting the evidence speak for itself, is how scientists should perform their work.

I'm not sure I agree,however they are looking at it from an evolution perspective,they always do,it is clear in the link I posted and the links Kurieuo posted they are looking at it from an evolution perspective.But what I'm trying to get at,is how do the different creation interpretations answer this from a biblical perspective? And so far I think we've seen how YEC's address this issue,but not the others.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4928
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 168 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#18

Post by abelcainsbrother » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:11 pm

We Gap Theorists have a Gap issue,we have to get around a Gap we believe happened.How could life in this world have DNA in them from life that was in the former world that died before God created life for this world? I think I have an answer but I'm wondering what other creation perspectives say about it.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21374
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 200 times
Been liked: 1077 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#19

Post by RickD » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:12 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
RickD wrote:
ACB wrote:

I think we all know scientists are not looking at it from a biblical perspective or creation perspective,but they are looking at it from an evolution perspective and making it fit into that.Evolution is their religion even if they reject a biblical perspective. I know its not important to Audi but most creation perspectives have an answer when it comes to science and as more is discovered alot of times it validates more of God's word. Now based on the posts Kurieuo made I'm not so sure this is true now,obviously there are different interpretations of the data even in science. Still I think the ones who believe they did mate are the majority when it comes to evolution science.
First of all, scientists shouldn't be practicing science if they're looking at it from a biblical perspective, creation perspective, or an evolutionary perspective.

Letting the evidence speak for itself, is how scientists should perform their work.

I'm not sure I agree,however they are looking at it from an evolution perspective,they always do,it is clear in the link I posted and the links Kurieuo posted they are looking at it from an evolution perspective.But what I'm trying to get at,is how do the different creation interpretations answer this from a biblical perspective? And so far I think we've seen how YEC's address this issue,but not the others.
Are there scientists that allow their evolutionary beliefs to influence how they practice in their scientific field? Of course.

But the way you wrote it, seemed to be saying that all scientists, or even scientists in general, look at the evidence of Neanderthals and modern humans, from a evolutionary perspective. That's just not true.

Reasons.org has info on this topic at their website, if you're interested in their perspective.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4928
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 168 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#20

Post by abelcainsbrother » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:28 pm

RickD wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
RickD wrote:
ACB wrote:

I think we all know scientists are not looking at it from a biblical perspective or creation perspective,but they are looking at it from an evolution perspective and making it fit into that.Evolution is their religion even if they reject a biblical perspective. I know its not important to Audi but most creation perspectives have an answer when it comes to science and as more is discovered alot of times it validates more of God's word. Now based on the posts Kurieuo made I'm not so sure this is true now,obviously there are different interpretations of the data even in science. Still I think the ones who believe they did mate are the majority when it comes to evolution science.
First of all, scientists shouldn't be practicing science if they're looking at it from a biblical perspective, creation perspective, or an evolutionary perspective.

Letting the evidence speak for itself, is how scientists should perform their work.

I'm not sure I agree,however they are looking at it from an evolution perspective,they always do,it is clear in the link I posted and the links Kurieuo posted they are looking at it from an evolution perspective.But what I'm trying to get at,is how do the different creation interpretations answer this from a biblical perspective? And so far I think we've seen how YEC's address this issue,but not the others.
Are there scientists that allow their evolutionary beliefs to influence how they practice in their scientific field? Of course.

But the way you wrote it, seemed to be saying that all scientists, or even scientists in general, look at the evidence of Neanderthals and modern humans, from a evolutionary perspective. That's just not true.

Reasons.org has info on this topic at their website, if you're interested in their perspective.
Sorry bro,but every scientific article that I usually read is looking at everything from an evolution perspective,in all branches of science too. Thanks for the tip about Reasons.org.
but I really wish we could have a conversation about this from the different creation perspectives to maybe see which one has the best answer,etc.I'm not really trying to start a debate although it might could happen. I'm just really trying to understand this from the other creation perspectives.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9185
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 346 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#21

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:52 pm

The only scientists that MAY look at things from the evolutionary POV are evolutionary biologists.
Astronomers, physicists, Archaeologists and so forth wouldn't really carry that "bias" into their research.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21374
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 200 times
Been liked: 1077 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#22

Post by RickD » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:00 pm

ACB,

There's even articles on the home site. Just put "Neanderthal" into the search box, and articles pop up.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 9962
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia
Has liked: 634 times
Been liked: 655 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#23

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:54 pm

Audie wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Audie wrote:Actual research in science is done without regard to "perspective", politics,
religion, or nationality, still less with regard to which cults favour this or that
outcome
That's a joke right?
How do you think research is done?
Research is done by people who are often paid or funded, have a nationality and opinions on politics, religion, the world.
This ideal that science can be objectively performed in a vacuum devoid of passion is something post-modernity debunked long ago. Also, I'd further argue one's passions aren't just impossible to leave aside, but they are actually a positive motivator and driver for research.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 9962
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia
Has liked: 634 times
Been liked: 655 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#24

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:08 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
RickD wrote:
ACB wrote:

I think we all know scientists are not looking at it from a biblical perspective or creation perspective,but they are looking at it from an evolution perspective and making it fit into that.Evolution is their religion even if they reject a biblical perspective. I know its not important to Audi but most creation perspectives have an answer when it comes to science and as more is discovered alot of times it validates more of God's word. Now based on the posts Kurieuo made I'm not so sure this is true now,obviously there are different interpretations of the data even in science. Still I think the ones who believe they did mate are the majority when it comes to evolution science.
First of all, scientists shouldn't be practicing science if they're looking at it from a biblical perspective, creation perspective, or an evolutionary perspective.

Letting the evidence speak for itself, is how scientists should perform their work.

I'm not sure I agree,however they are looking at it from an evolution perspective,they always do,it is clear in the link I posted and the links Kurieuo posted they are looking at it from an evolution perspective.But what I'm trying to get at,is how do the different creation interpretations answer this from a biblical perspective? And so far I think we've seen how YEC's address this issue,but not the others.
ACB I think you're broad stroking evolution.

The articles I referenced, sure, they're working within the ToE framework where life all share a common ancestor with some algae. This is very different though from say the "balance selection" spoken of in the first article.

As to us modern humans interbreeding neanders, well, the articles I referenced show the common segments seen can happen quite naturally and would be expected. Therefore, there is no reason to postulate interbreeding and hybrids. Not to mention the many other issues such a scenario needs to overcome including small neander population sizes, migration timings we're aware to, sterility and the like.

The only reason people gravitate to a "we swung with neader scenario", and let's not forget the Denisovans too btw, is because it carries like a nice juicy story to tell. Always makes headlines. Look at the study you quoted. It's like good gossip when so-and-so gets with so-and-so...

I'm more interested in listening to all sides in science, rather than the popular side. And I'll freely admit, the one I'm drawn to, is the one that best conforms with my beliefs on origins. So what? It doesn't mean I can't look at the evidence or do science any more or less than the next person.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4928
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 168 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#25

Post by abelcainsbrother » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:08 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
RickD wrote:
ACB wrote:

I think we all know scientists are not looking at it from a biblical perspective or creation perspective,but they are looking at it from an evolution perspective and making it fit into that.Evolution is their religion even if they reject a biblical perspective. I know its not important to Audi but most creation perspectives have an answer when it comes to science and as more is discovered alot of times it validates more of God's word. Now based on the posts Kurieuo made I'm not so sure this is true now,obviously there are different interpretations of the data even in science. Still I think the ones who believe they did mate are the majority when it comes to evolution science.
First of all, scientists shouldn't be practicing science if they're looking at it from a biblical perspective, creation perspective, or an evolutionary perspective.

Letting the evidence speak for itself, is how scientists should perform their work.

I'm not sure I agree,however they are looking at it from an evolution perspective,they always do,it is clear in the link I posted and the links Kurieuo posted they are looking at it from an evolution perspective.But what I'm trying to get at,is how do the different creation interpretations answer this from a biblical perspective? And so far I think we've seen how YEC's address this issue,but not the others.
ACB I think you're broad stroking evolution.

The articles I referenced, sure, they're working within the ToE framework where life all share a common ancestor with some algae. This is very different though from say the "balance selection" spoken of in the first article.

As to us modern humans interbreeding neanders, well, the articles I referenced show the common segments seen can happen quite naturally and would be expected. Therefore, there is no reason to postulate interbreeding and hybrids. Not to mention the many other issues such a scenario needs to overcome including small neander population sizes, migration timings we're aware to, sterility and the like.

The only reason people gravitate to a "we swung with neader scenario", and let's not forget the Denisovans too btw, is because it carries like a nice juicy story to tell. Always makes headlines. Look at the study you quoted. It's like good gossip when so-and-so gets with so-and-so...

I'm more interested in listening to all sides in science, rather than the popular side. And I'll freely admit, the one I'm drawn to, is the one that best conforms with my beliefs on origins. So what? It doesn't mean I can't look at the evidence or do science any more or less than the next person.
I don't see how you got that based on my statements. I don't understand why it is so hard not to see how scientists look at everything from an evolution perspective.They were looking at it from an evolution perspective in the link I posted and the links you posted. Both for it and against it,is still looked at from an evolution perspective. It still means neanderthal DNA is in humans even if they did'nt breed.

But that is not really my point,it is getting away from my real point to argue over that. I really want to know what the other creation perspectives say about this from a biblical perspective,even if they reject Neanderthals bred with humans,I just wanted to know in order to compare to see which makes the most sense. I'm sure there are others that will wonder about it too,if it ever comes up.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 9962
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia
Has liked: 634 times
Been liked: 655 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#26

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:37 pm

ACB, I'm finding you confusing.

May I ask "even if they reject Neanderthals bred with humans", what is there to then know regarding Neanderthals breeding with humans? Your question can't be answered, doesn't get started with such. :econfused:

But, anyway, perhaps others can answer. :scratch:
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4928
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 168 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#27

Post by abelcainsbrother » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:43 pm

Kurieuo wrote:ACB, I'm finding you confusing.

May I ask "even if they reject Neanderthals bred with humans", what is there to then know regarding Neanderthals breeding with humans? Your question can't be answered, doesn't get started with such. :econfused:

But, anyway, perhaps others can answer. :scratch:
Well some may believe they did breed,while others may not believe it. But whether they do or not we still have neanderthal DNA in humans so what do the different creation perspectives say or how do they address it biblically? I was just wondering. It's not really supposed to be about evolution and its influence in science.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 9962
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia
Has liked: 634 times
Been liked: 655 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#28

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:10 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:ACB, I'm finding you confusing.

May I ask "even if they reject Neanderthals bred with humans", what is there to then know regarding Neanderthals breeding with humans? Your question can't be answered, doesn't get started with such. :econfused:

But, anyway, perhaps others can answer. :scratch:
Well some may believe they did breed,while others may not believe it. But whether they do or not we still have neanderthal DNA in humans so what do the different creation perspectives say or how do they address it biblically? I was just wondering. It's not really supposed to be about evolution and its influence in science.
"we still have neanderthal DNA in humans" -- no, the two scientific studies I earlier referenced account for the common segments without attributing the DNA in humans to neanderthals.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4928
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 168 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#29

Post by abelcainsbrother » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:22 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:ACB, I'm finding you confusing.

May I ask "even if they reject Neanderthals bred with humans", what is there to then know regarding Neanderthals breeding with humans? Your question can't be answered, doesn't get started with such. :econfused:

But, anyway, perhaps others can answer. :scratch:
Well some may believe they did breed,while others may not believe it. But whether they do or not we still have neanderthal DNA in humans so what do the different creation perspectives say or how do they address it biblically? I was just wondering. It's not really supposed to be about evolution and its influence in science.
"we still have neanderthal DNA in humans" -- no, the two scientific studies I earlier referenced account for the common segments without attributing the DNA in humans to neanderthals.
Was'nt it because of a common ancestor though? It is just a different explanation than they bred. I guess the other creation perspectives do not address this biblically. Oh well,I was just wondering what they have to say about it.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA
Has liked: 164 times
Been liked: 113 times

Re: Both neanderthals and humans mated with each other.What does your creation interpretation say?

#30

Post by Audie » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:07 am

All animals can trace back to common ancestors.

Post Reply