Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Theism?

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#31

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:57 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:Bone digger for evolutionists

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v_C1NCT0LsU

Or you can go here:
http://www.biologos.org
And see that evolution is NOT a challenge to our faith, not by a long shot.
Thanks for the link but right off the bat before I could accept evolution and believe God created life through evolution is to actually see evidence life evolves,for I see no reason to believe life evolves at all,so there is Noway at this point I could even consider it.Also one of the big problems I have with evolution science is that this world has gone on for millions of years since Genesis 1:1 Peter tells me in 2nd Peter 3-7 this is not true,so even if I could accept evolution I'd have to believe God used evolution to create the life in the former world by evolution then that world perished until God created this world and used evolution to create the life in this world too,but I cannot overlook a gap but when man is wrong about their view this world has gone on for millions of years since Genesis 1:1 I have to question there whole theory right off the bat.
2 Peter 3:
The Coming Day of the Lord
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


Where is the statement that the world is NOT millions of years old ??
As a matter of fact, taking what Peter said in verse 8, it would seem that it took God 6000 years just to create world ( 1 day = 1000 years)...

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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#32

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:01 pm

When I started this thread it wasn't to be so much about debating evolution.
Rather more about getting at the beliefs of those Christians, who I see are also in Christ, yet believe humanity evolved from previous life.
Neo-X has been honest in saying that he cannot reconcile his position with the Genesis account in Scripture.

At some point though, I see a line must be drawn with "contemporary evolutionary thinking" -- that is, as many "experts" see it.
This is generally seen as a random process said to be unguided and without any intelligent plan or design.
Inline with Stephen J Gould who has said something like, "if evolution were rewind and played out again then we'd expect there wouldn't be any humans."
Or Dawkins' Blind Watchmaker rejects the notion of many Theistic Evolutionists believe. God cannot even plant the initial seed that purposefully unfolds into all other lifeforms right down to us humans.

There does seems to be some backing away from this though in scientific circles.
For example, the National Association of Biology Teachers once described evolution as "an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable and natural process."
This logically excludes any view of evolution mixed with God. But, they no longer frame evolution in these terms on their website.

Many today in discussions re: evolution, unless they're staunch Atheists, will accept the "evolution" and "God" are both compatible.
Indeed, I think if evolution is true and we can rationally know it is true, that Naturalism must be false.
Kind of like the "big bang" evidences God, and so does "evolution" actually if it is true. That's for another time though.
I may elaborate further some time upon it since many Atheists think evolution allows them to be intellectually fulfilled. ;)
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#33

Post by Katabole » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:34 pm

I haven't been on this site in quite some time but I still remain a reader here. Hope everyone is doing well.

I think it would be of everyone's interest if they purchased and read the book by American philosopher Thomas Nagel. Nagel is a double PhD at New York university. His book is entitled, 'Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False'.

Nagel claims he is an atheist but he writes that he actually hopes that there isn't a God which makes him out to be more of an anti-theist.

His book has stirred up quite a controversy within the world atheist communities, including much anger and Nagel has actually received a lot of praise from a number of well known Christian apologists.

The book is close to 130 pages long so it is a short read but it is packed with some of the most intelligent arguments and philosophical musings against the new materialistic Darwinism that I have ever read.

If you are a Christian and your creation view is theistic evolution, Nagel will make you seriously question your world view.
If you are not a believer in God but still believe in macro-evolution of some kind, Nagel again will make you seriously question your worldview.

If you are a Christian with a creation stance that differs from theistic evolution, Nagels book should truly be a refreshing eye opener.

Frankly, of the books I have read since I have lived, it is up there as one of the greatest books of the 21st century.

Nagel's book should be required reading for everyone on this site.
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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#34

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:04 pm

Katabole wrote:I haven't been on this site in quite some time but I still remain a reader here. Hope everyone is doing well.

I think it would be of everyone's interest if they purchased and read the book by American philosopher Thomas Nagel. Nagel is a double PhD at New York university. His book is entitled, 'Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False'.

Nagel claims he is an atheist but he writes that he actually hopes that there isn't a God which makes him out to be more of an anti-theist.

His book has stirred up quite a controversy within the world atheist communities, including much anger and Nagel has actually received a lot of praise from a number of well known Christian apologists.

The book is close to 130 pages long so it is a short read but it is packed with some of the most intelligent arguments and philosophical musings against the new materialistic Darwinism that I have ever read.

If you are a Christian and your creation view is theistic evolution, Nagel will make you seriously question your world view.
If you are not a believer in God but still believe in macro-evolution of some kind, Nagel again will make you seriously question your worldview.

If you are a Christian with a creation stance that differs from theistic evolution, Nagels book should truly be a refreshing eye opener.

Frankly, of the books I have read since I have lived, it is up there as one of the greatest books of the 21st century.

Nagel's book should be required reading for everyone on this site.
The problem with that and I have read Nagel's arguments, is that evolution is NOT a philosophy.
Darwinisim is and naturalisim is and the view that nature is "mechanical" is.

As some one that has always held the view that one's creation stance has NOTHING to do with their faith in Christ, I could have been an OEC or even a YEC ( though that is a bit of a stretch) but the fact is that studying with an open minded and with no real motive or inclination to believe ANY of the views and following the evidence to where it lead, I ended up as a TE.
Sure I can be wrong and I accept that possibility.
None of this effects my faith in Christ, it didn't effect my degree in Theology and it doesn't effect my view on salvation through Christ.

IMO, evolution accounts for the changes we see and can see over the millions of years.
I do NOT believe it to be without purpose (though the changes can be random) and believe that God does sustain it ( if not always guiding it-just like nature).
I believe that it is evidence that God equipped life with the ability to adapt and survive and in evolution I see God's desire for Man to become MORE.

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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#35

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:14 pm

Naturalism is a view that every effects arises from a cause in the material world.
The physical world is all there is. No God. It is a philosophical world view.

I think it is naive to think the philosophy doesn't get mixed in with one's science.
It is in fact a necessary part of science. And that includes how one theorises about evolution.

Your beliefs in evolution therefore are very different from say Dawkin's, Gould's and many other respected Materialistic biologists.

Nagel's book I think is very appropriate and perhaps builds off/adds weight to Plantinga's argument from evolution against Naturalism.
Katabole's mentioning it just supports your beliefs as a Theist believing in evolution over and against the Materialist's evolution.
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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#36

Post by Audie » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:17 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
IMO, evolution accounts for the changes we see and can see over the millions of years.
I do NOT believe it to be without purpose (though the changes can be random) and believe that God does sustain it ( if not always guiding it-just like nature).
I believe that it is evidence that God equipped life with the ability to adapt and survive and in evolution I see God's desire for Man to become MORE.
"Purpose' being "Purpose, as in being whatever God decided it is for?

In what specific way or sense do you feel God sustains or guides life?

If God equipped life with the ability to adapt, do you mean like that He started life and designed DNA, or, that he designed a universe that lets things take care of themselves?

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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#37

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:44 am

Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
IMO, evolution accounts for the changes we see and can see over the millions of years.
I do NOT believe it to be without purpose (though the changes can be random) and believe that God does sustain it ( if not always guiding it-just like nature).
I believe that it is evidence that God equipped life with the ability to adapt and survive and in evolution I see God's desire for Man to become MORE.
"Purpose' being "Purpose, as in being whatever God decided it is for?

In what specific way or sense do you feel God sustains or guides life?

If God equipped life with the ability to adapt, do you mean like that He started life and designed DNA, or, that he designed a universe that lets things take care of themselves?
Those are philosophical questions of course AND the point of this thread is the question of CAN Evolution be compatible with Theism and the answer is YES.

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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#38

Post by Audie » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:16 am

Kurieuo wrote:When I started this thread it wasn't to be so much about debating evolution.
Rather more about getting at the beliefs of those Christians, who I see are also in Christ, yet believe humanity evolved from previous life.
Neo-X has been honest in saying that he cannot reconcile his position with the Genesis account in Scripture.

At some point though, I see a line must be drawn with "contemporary evolutionary thinking" -- that is, as many "experts" see it.
This is generally seen as a random process said to be unguided and without any intelligent plan or design.
Inline with Stephen J Gould who has said something like, "if evolution were rewind and played out again then we'd expect there wouldn't be any humans."
Or Dawkins' Blind Watchmaker rejects the notion of many Theistic Evolutionists believe. God cannot even plant the initial seed that purposefully unfolds into all other lifeforms right down to us humans.

There does seems to be some backing away from this though in scientific circles.
For example, the National Association of Biology Teachers once described evolution as "an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable and natural process."
This logically excludes any view of evolution mixed with God. But, they no longer frame evolution in these terms on their website.

Many today in discussions re: evolution, unless they're staunch Atheists, will accept the "evolution" and "God" are both compatible.
Indeed, I think if evolution is true and we can rationally know it is true, that Naturalism must be false.
Kind of like the "big bang" evidences God, and so does "evolution" actually if it is true. That's for another time though.
I may elaborate further some time upon it since many Atheists think evolution allows them to be intellectually fulfilled. ;)

Huh?

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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#39

Post by Audie » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:18 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
IMO, evolution accounts for the changes we see and can see over the millions of years.
I do NOT believe it to be without purpose (though the changes can be random) and believe that God does sustain it ( if not always guiding it-just like nature).
I believe that it is evidence that God equipped life with the ability to adapt and survive and in evolution I see God's desire for Man to become MORE.
"Purpose' being "Purpose, as in being whatever God decided it is for?

In what specific way or sense do you feel God sustains or guides life?

If God equipped life with the ability to adapt, do you mean like that He started life and designed DNA, or, that he designed a universe that lets things take care of themselves?
Those are philosophical questions of course AND the point of this thread is the question of CAN Evolution be compatible with Theism and the answer is YES.
I dont see how those are entirely philosophical questions, but if they are to you then there is nothing for me to discuss with you there.

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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#40

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:26 am

Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
IMO, evolution accounts for the changes we see and can see over the millions of years.
I do NOT believe it to be without purpose (though the changes can be random) and believe that God does sustain it ( if not always guiding it-just like nature).
I believe that it is evidence that God equipped life with the ability to adapt and survive and in evolution I see God's desire for Man to become MORE.
"Purpose' being "Purpose, as in being whatever God decided it is for?

In what specific way or sense do you feel God sustains or guides life?

If God equipped life with the ability to adapt, do you mean like that He started life and designed DNA, or, that he designed a universe that lets things take care of themselves?
Those are philosophical questions of course AND the point of this thread is the question of CAN Evolution be compatible with Theism and the answer is YES.
I dont see how those are entirely philosophical questions, but if they are to you then there is nothing for me to discuss with you there.

Do you think that science ( emperical observation) can answer the questions of:
"Purpose' being "Purpose, as in being whatever God decided it is for?

In what specific way or sense do you feel God sustains or guides life?

If God equipped life with the ability to adapt, do you mean like that He started life and designed DNA, or, that he designed a universe that lets things take care of themselves?

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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#41

Post by Audie » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:00 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
IMO, evolution accounts for the changes we see and can see over the millions of years.
I do NOT believe it to be without purpose (though the changes can be random) and believe that God does sustain it ( if not always guiding it-just like nature).
I believe that it is evidence that God equipped life with the ability to adapt and survive and in evolution I see God's desire for Man to become MORE.
"Purpose' being "Purpose, as in being whatever God decided it is for?

In what specific way or sense do you feel God sustains or guides life?

If God equipped life with the ability to adapt, do you mean like that He started life and designed DNA, or, that he designed a universe that lets things take care of themselves?
Those are philosophical questions of course AND the point of this thread is the question of CAN Evolution be compatible with Theism and the answer is YES.
I dont see how those are entirely philosophical questions, but if they are to you then there is nothing for me to discuss with you there.

Do you think that science ( emperical observation) can answer the questions of:
"Purpose' being "Purpose, as in being whatever God decided it is for?

In what specific way or sense do you feel God sustains or guides life?

If God equipped life with the ability to adapt, do you mean like that He started life and designed DNA, or, that he designed a universe that lets things take care of themselves?

I guess if three's only religions reasons and no data that indicates Design, Purpose and a supernatural origin for life, then yes, its all totally non scientific.

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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#42

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:06 pm

Audie wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:When I started this thread it wasn't to be so much about debating evolution.
Rather more about getting at the beliefs of those Christians, who I see are also in Christ, yet believe humanity evolved from previous life.
Neo-X has been honest in saying that he cannot reconcile his position with the Genesis account in Scripture.

At some point though, I see a line must be drawn with "contemporary evolutionary thinking" -- that is, as many "experts" see it.
This is generally seen as a random process said to be unguided and without any intelligent plan or design.
Inline with Stephen J Gould who has said something like, "if evolution were rewind and played out again then we'd expect there wouldn't be any humans."
Or Dawkins' Blind Watchmaker rejects the notion of many Theistic Evolutionists believe. God cannot even plant the initial seed that purposefully unfolds into all other lifeforms right down to us humans.

There does seems to be some backing away from this though in scientific circles.
For example, the National Association of Biology Teachers once described evolution as "an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable and natural process."
This logically excludes any view of evolution mixed with God. But, they no longer frame evolution in these terms on their website.

Many today in discussions re: evolution, unless they're staunch Atheists, will accept the "evolution" and "God" are both compatible.
Indeed, I think if evolution is true and we can rationally know it is true, that Naturalism must be false.
Kind of like the "big bang" evidences God, and so does "evolution" actually if it is true. That's for another time though.
I may elaborate further some time upon it since many Atheists think evolution allows them to be intellectually fulfilled. ;)

Huh?
Huh, what?

I'm not debating that "quote" -- I know you don't respect the guy much that it comes from so...
I certainly don't claim it allows "Atheists" to be intellectually fulfilled.
Perhaps it allows them to try drive a sword into YECs and other creationists who disagree with evolutionary science, but swords can be double-edged.

Evolution is by no means supportive of Naturalism (the philosophical worldview).
There are several lines of argument from Swinburne (fine-tuning), Plantinga (epistemological) and variations.
Even Atheistic philosophers are realising they don't bed well -- one Katabole referenced. The irony of it all huh?

But, if you're more interested in just the brute science than you probably don't care much about which philosophical framework life evolving is more compatible with.
So I'm not going to debate this. Either you can accept what I say, look into yourself, or not. Doesn't really phase me my friend.

I may discuss some of the arguments from evolution against Naturalism/for Theism in some other threads in near future.
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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#43

Post by Audie » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:54 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Audie wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:When I started this thread it wasn't to be so much about debating evolution.
Rather more about getting at the beliefs of those Christians, who I see are also in Christ, yet believe humanity evolved from previous life.
Neo-X has been honest in saying that he cannot reconcile his position with the Genesis account in Scripture.

At some point though, I see a line must be drawn with "contemporary evolutionary thinking" -- that is, as many "experts" see it.
This is generally seen as a random process said to be unguided and without any intelligent plan or design.
Inline with Stephen J Gould who has said something like, "if evolution were rewind and played out again then we'd expect there wouldn't be any humans."
Or Dawkins' Blind Watchmaker rejects the notion of many Theistic Evolutionists believe. God cannot even plant the initial seed that purposefully unfolds into all other lifeforms right down to us humans.

There does seems to be some backing away from this though in scientific circles.
For example, the National Association of Biology Teachers once described evolution as "an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable and natural process."
This logically excludes any view of evolution mixed with God. But, they no longer frame evolution in these terms on their website.

Many today in discussions re: evolution, unless they're staunch Atheists, will accept the "evolution" and "God" are both compatible.
Indeed, I think if evolution is true and we can rationally know it is true, that Naturalism must be false.
Kind of like the "big bang" evidences God, and so does "evolution" actually if it is true. That's for another time though.
I may elaborate further some time upon it since many Atheists think evolution allows them to be intellectually fulfilled. ;)

Huh?
Huh, what?

I'm not debating that "quote" -- I know you don't respect the guy much that it comes from so...
I certainly don't claim it allows "Atheists" to be intellectually fulfilled.
Perhaps it allows them to try drive a sword into YECs and other creationists who disagree with evolutionary science, but swords can be double-edged.

Evolution is by no means supportive of Naturalism (the philosophical worldview).
There are several lines of argument from Swinburne (fine-tuning), Plantinga (epistemological) and variations.
Even Atheistic philosophers are realising they don't bed well -- one Katabole referenced. The irony of it all huh?

But, if you're more interested in just the brute science than you probably don't care much about which philosophical framework life evolving is more compatible with.
So I'm not going to debate this. Either you can accept what I say, look into yourself, or not. Doesn't really phase me my friend.

I may discuss some of the arguments from evolution against Naturalism/for Theism in some other threads in near future.

Mutual infazement.

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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#44

Post by abelcainsbrother » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:03 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:Bone digger for evolutionists

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v_C1NCT0LsU

Or you can go here:
http://www.biologos.org
And see that evolution is NOT a challenge to our faith, not by a long shot.
Thanks for the link but right off the bat before I could accept evolution and believe God created life through evolution is to actually see evidence life evolves,for I see no reason to believe life evolves at all,so there is Noway at this point I could even consider it.Also one of the big problems I have with evolution science is that this world has gone on for millions of years since Genesis 1:1 Peter tells me in 2nd Peter 3-7 this is not true,so even if I could accept evolution I'd have to believe God used evolution to create the life in the former world by evolution then that world perished until God created this world and used evolution to create the life in this world too,but I cannot overlook a gap but when man is wrong about their view this world has gone on for millions of years since Genesis 1:1 I have to question there whole theory right off the bat.
2 Peter 3:
The Coming Day of the Lord
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


Where is the statement that the world is NOT millions of years old ??
As a matter of fact, taking what Peter said in verse 8, it would seem that it took God 6000 years just to create world ( 1 day = 1000 years)...
It tells us this world has not gone on continually whether or not you think the earth is 6000 years old or billions of years old in this portion of the verses you gave"For ever since the fathers fell asleep,all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation" this means people will believe this world has went on continually since the beginning and I think you believe this but this part right here tells me it has not "For when they maintain this,it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water" this did not happen in Noah's flood the only place in the bible this happened is in Genesis 1. The earth was not formed out of water in Noah's flood.So it has not went on continually since the beginning of creation,there was a break or a gap.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Contemporary Evolutionary Theory: Incompatible with Thei

#45

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:31 am

*face palm*

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