Cast down to Earth

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
PaganC
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Cast down to Earth

#1

Post by PaganC » Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:00 pm

I have read that Lucifer was an angel in heaven, and when he rebelled against God, he was cast down to earth which is where the Garden of Eden was, and Adam and Eve where in that garden as well, naked and innocent. Why would God cast down to earth this sinful angel and allow him to tempt these first "green" and naive humans?

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Cast down to Earth

#2

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:59 am

PaganC wrote:Why would God cast down to earth this sinful angel and allow him to tempt these first "green" and naive humans?
As a test of their willingness to trust God and his word. They failed.

Next question?

FL y~o)
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Cast down to Earth

#3

Post by theophilus » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:41 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
PaganC wrote:Why would God cast down to earth this sinful angel and allow him to tempt these first "green" and naive humans?
As a test of their willingness to trust God and his word. They failed.
That is true but it is only part of the answer. Their failure began a sequence of events which led to Jesus becoming a man and dying to pay for our sins. But his death and resurrection did more than just enable us to be forgiven.

The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
(1 John 3:8 ESV)


The Bible begins with Satan being a tempter; it ends with him spending eternity in the lake of fire and unable to tempt or harm anyone. This was one of the reasons God created the world in the first place.
God wants full custody of his children, not just visits on Sunday.

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Re: Cast down to Earth

#4

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:44 pm

theophilus wrote:That is true but it is only part of the answer...
It is unwise to give a complex answer to someone who asks a simple question. Stay with the KISS principle and work from there.

Again, the appropriate answer to PaganC's question is,
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:As a test of their willingness to trust God and his word. They failed.
FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Cast down to Earth

#5

Post by PaganC » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:32 pm

If Lucifer in all his angelic wisdom and glory failed, why would it be any different for Adam and Eve? And if God knew that they would fail, but it was necessary for them to fail in order to initiate a redemption process through Christ Jesus, why couldn't He (God) have initiated that plan when Lucifer and the fallen angels felled, instead of creating man and waiting for man to fall so that He (God) can them begin His grand plan of salvation?

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Re: Cast down to Earth

#6

Post by theophilus » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:55 am

PaganC wrote:If Lucifer in all his angelic wisdom and glory failed, why would it be any different for Adam and Eve? And if God knew that they would fail, but it was necessary for them to fail in order to initiate a redemption process through Christ Jesus, why couldn't He (God) have initiated that plan when Lucifer and the fallen angels felled, instead of creating man and waiting for man to fall so that He (God) can them begin His grand plan of salvation?
We have no way of knowing why God does the things he does. God is infinite but our minds are finite so there are many things about God that we couldn't understand even if he revealed them to us. All we can know is that God has a reason for everything he does and if we could understand the reason we would understand that his way if the best way.
God wants full custody of his children, not just visits on Sunday.

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Re: Cast down to Earth

#7

Post by B. W. » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:01 am

PaganC wrote:If Lucifer in all his angelic wisdom and glory failed, why would it be any different for Adam and Eve? And if God knew that they would fail, but it was necessary for them to fail in order to initiate a redemption process through Christ Jesus, why couldn't He (God) have initiated that plan when Lucifer and the fallen angels felled, instead of creating man and waiting for man to fall so that He (God) can them begin His grand plan of salvation?
It would be up to you to prove that God did not try to bring back the fallen angels.

Until then, FL's answer still holds true:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:As a test of their willingness to trust God and his word. They failed.

FL y~o)
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Re: Cast down to Earth

#8

Post by PaganC » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:13 pm

B. W. wrote:
PaganC wrote:If Lucifer in all his angelic wisdom and glory failed, why would it be any different for Adam and Eve? And if God knew that they would fail, but it was necessary for them to fail in order to initiate a redemption process through Christ Jesus, why couldn't He (God) have initiated that plan when Lucifer and the fallen angels felled, instead of creating man and waiting for man to fall so that He (God) can them begin His grand plan of salvation?
It would be up to you to prove that God did not try to bring back the fallen angels.

Until then, FL's answer still holds true:
Why do I need to prove anything? Rather, is there any scripture that talks about God working to bring those fallen angels back?

Unies tend to believe there is, but I defer to you, what do you say is written in that regards?

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Re: Cast down to Earth

#9

Post by B. W. » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:32 pm

PaganC wrote:
B. W. wrote:
PaganC wrote:If Lucifer in all his angelic wisdom and glory failed, why would it be any different for Adam and Eve? And if God knew that they would fail, but it was necessary for them to fail in order to initiate a redemption process through Christ Jesus, why couldn't He (God) have initiated that plan when Lucifer and the fallen angels felled, instead of creating man and waiting for man to fall so that He (God) can them begin His grand plan of salvation?
It would be up to you to prove that God did not try to bring back the fallen angels.

Until then, FL's answer still holds true:
Why do I need to prove anything? Rather, is there any scripture that talks about God working to bring those fallen angels back?

Unies tend to believe there is, but I defer to you, what do you say is written in that regards?
Why do you need to prove anything - well you asked a question:
PaganC wrote:If Lucifer in all his angelic wisdom and glory failed, why would it be any different for Adam and Eve? And if God knew that they would fail, but it was necessary for them to fail in order to initiate a redemption process through Christ Jesus, why couldn't He (God) have initiated that plan when Lucifer and the fallen angels felled, instead of creating man and waiting for man to fall so that He (God) can them begin His grand plan of salvation?
Then you said this:
PaganC wrote:Unies tend to believe there is...
So the burden of proof is on you...

Until then, FL's answer still holds true:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:As a test of their willingness to trust God and his word. They failed.

FL y~o)
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
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Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: Cast down to Earth

#10

Post by theophilus » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:35 am

PaganC wrote:
B. W. wrote:Rather, is there any scripture that talks about God working to bring those fallen angels back?
The Bible was written as a revelation to humans to reveal the things we need to know. There is very little information about angels except when they interact with humans. We have no way of knowing whether or not God provided a way of redemption for the fallen angels and we really don't need to know.
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
(Hebrews 2:14-16 ESV)
This is sometimes quoted to show that God didn't provide a way of redemption for angels but in fact it only says that Christ's death wasn't for their redemption. If there is a way for them to be forgiven it is in some other way than through Christ.
God wants full custody of his children, not just visits on Sunday.

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Re: Cast down to Earth

#11

Post by B. W. » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:42 am

theophilus wrote:
PaganC wrote:
B. W. wrote:Rather, is there any scripture that talks about God working to bring those fallen angels back?
The Bible was written as a revelation to humans to reveal the things we need to know. There is very little information about angels except when they interact with humans. We have no way of knowing whether or not God provided a way of redemption for the fallen angels and we really don't need to know.
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
(Hebrews 2:14-16 ESV)
This is sometimes quoted to show that God didn't provide a way of redemption for angels but in fact it only says that Christ's death wasn't for their redemption. If there is a way for them to be forgiven it is in some other way than through Christ.
Matthew 25:41 and Rev 20:10-15 and Rev 22:14,15 show that is there is no redemption fro fallen angels. They are sealed in rebellion and will always view God character and nature as a means to exploit to their own advantage. Ez 28:12-19 expresses this because iniquity was found in the fallen angel's heart due to the reasons cited in the text. As an eternal being, this serpent from the garden of Eden and his fallen cohorts, exploited God's life granting nature - a gift of life, How so - God will not renege on gifts and these beings abused this truth about God; thus, hell was designed as a prison for them for eternity with no chance of parole as rehabilitation would be seen by them as a opportunity to exploit God's gifts, callings, promises all over again in the hopes of overthrowing God by having God act contrary to His own character and nature.

The means of uncovering or found iniquity mentioned in Ez 28:15 implies strongly that they use lawlessness to test and pit order against itself as the means to overthrow order and establish their own order - iniquity, pride, and cruelty.

I can admire how folks would like to think such beings could be redeemed but if you met the devil, you would lose that point of view real quick. There is no way that Adolf Hitler and Osama bin Laden will be yuping it up with the Jews they killed on earth sometime later in heaven by being tortured in flames until they love everyone. That defies justice... in the fullest terms.

Fact is, human beings are sealed eternally at the point of mortal death. God provided the means through Jesus Christ only in our mortal life for salvation. How the iniquity was found in the fallen angels is moot. Fact is, someday, it will be found in people. God's great love, sent forth to redeem by a test. Faith contains in its definition the concept of loyalty and fidelity. Pass the test before iniquity is found in you. How - by Jesus Christ - John 3:16-21, 36.

God's wrath uncovers the true nature one has in their heart, exposing it for what it is and how will always act in an eternal being.
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Re: Cast down to Earth

#12

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:06 am

There is no salvation for fallen angles because in their rebellion they blaspheme,y the HS in the most grievous way.

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Re: Cast down to Earth

#13

Post by PaganC » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:05 am

B. W. wrote: Matthew 25:41 and Rev 20:10-15 and Rev 22:14,15 show that is there is no redemption fro fallen angels. They are sealed in rebellion and will always view God character and nature as a means to exploit to their own advantage. Ez 28:12-19 expresses this because iniquity was found in the fallen angel's heart due to the reasons cited in the text. As an eternal being, this serpent from the garden of Eden and his fallen cohorts, exploited God's life granting nature - a gift of life, How so - God will not renege on gifts and these beings abused this truth about God; thus, hell was designed as a prison for them for eternity with no chance of parole as rehabilitation would be seen by them as a opportunity to exploit God's gifts, callings, promises all over again in the hopes of overthrowing God by having God act contrary to His own character and nature.

The means of uncovering or found iniquity mentioned in Ez 28:15 implies strongly that they use lawlessness to test and pit order against itself as the means to overthrow order and establish their own order - iniquity, pride, and cruelty.

I can admire how folks would like to think such beings could be redeemed but if you met the devil, you would lose that point of view real quick. There is no way that Adolf Hitler and Osama bin Laden will be yuping it up with the Jews they killed on earth sometime later in heaven by being tortured in flames until they love everyone. That defies justice... in the fullest terms.

Fact is, human beings are sealed eternally at the point of mortal death. God provided the means through Jesus Christ only in our mortal life for salvation. How the iniquity was found in the fallen angels is moot. Fact is, someday, it will be found in people. God's great love, sent forth to redeem by a test. Faith contains in its definition the concept of loyalty and fidelity. Pass the test before iniquity is found in you. How - by Jesus Christ - John 3:16-21, 36.

God's wrath uncovers the true nature one has in their heart, exposing it for what it is and how will always act in an eternal being.
-
-
-

Sounds to me as if you're limiting God's power and what He can do through His atonement in Christ Jesus. In fact, it sounds to me as if you're leaning unto your own understanding -as if, the atonement failed and salvation relies on works of man being tested -as if your loyalty should account as worthy. Indeed, God does uncover the true nature of what lies inside a man's heart. Have you not read that it is not by you -but by His will that you are redeemed?

Why then do you limit God?

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Re: Cast down to Earth

#14

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:55 am

PaganC wrote:Sounds to me as if you're limiting God's power and what He can do through His atonement in Christ Jesus. In fact, it sounds to me as if you're leaning unto your own understanding -as if, the atonement failed and salvation relies on works of man being tested -as if your loyalty should account as worthy. Indeed, God does uncover the true nature of what lies inside a man's heart. Have you not read that it is not by you -but by His will that you are redeemed?Why then do you limit God?
:pound: :lol:

Maybe you should stick to just asking questions...

FL :ebiggrin:
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Cast down to Earth

#15

Post by theophilus » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:07 am

PaganC wrote:Sounds to me as if you're limiting God's power and what He can do through His atonement in Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 2:14-16 says that Christ's atonement doesn't include angels but that doesn't eliminate the possibility that God has provided some way their sins could be atoned for.
In fact, it sounds to me as if you're leaning unto your own understanding -as if, the atonement failed and salvation relies on works of man being tested -as if your loyalty should account as worthy. Indeed, God does uncover the true nature of what lies inside a man's heart. Have you not read that it is not by you -but by His will that you are redeemed?

Why then do you limit God?
In your profile you say that you aren't a Christian but you seem to understand this subject better than some Christians do. Just what is your religion?
God wants full custody of his children, not just visits on Sunday.

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