What if..?

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
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Silvertusk
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Re: What if..?

#16

Post by Silvertusk » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:07 am

Jac3510 wrote:Why would that be a deal breaker, ST? We already know of one set of intelligent creatures who have fallen (demons), and yet the Cross seems to have had no effect on them. Can you lay out your reasoning in a simple argument, because I'm missing a premise somewhere. The best I can see that you have is something like

Aliens exist
Jesus didn't die for aliens
Therefore Christianity is not true

Of course, I don't see how that follows at all. :?
Simply because if there were intelligent beings out there and God didn't offer them salvation as well through Christ then it would be the supreme act of cruelty to let them exist in the first place.

Angels who serve God already have eternity with him, and those who reject him don't. They have not been offered redemption because they were with God all the time and have known his glory fully. When they reject him it is to me the unforgivable sin. So I do not see a logical problem with that.

If there was another intelligent species out there, then what would be their purpose - eternal damnation or eternal salvation?

Silvertusk.

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Re: What if..?

#17

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:42 am

I think you are still making the same mistake in a different way. God is neither more than or less than humans. You are still trying to make a comparison. You are trying to put God beside humans, as if God is A being and a human is A being and then comparing those two beings to some moral standard external to teh two of them. But that is absurd. God is not A being and there is no moral standard outside of Him. As such, God does not have to answer ANY charge, no matter what you think about it. The very fact that we lay a charge against God means that we don't get what He is.
Yes, I agree of course BUT for the skeptic, it is a borderline circular argument that does no favors.
To state that God doesn't "owe us" anything (much less an explanation) means, for the skeptic, that God is NOT worthy of worship.
To state that God doesn't value anything can ONLY be understood to NOT be a negative description of God IF the skeptic understand WHY God doesn't HAVE to value or doesn't NEED to value anything.

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Re: What if..?

#18

Post by Mallz » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:14 pm

Simply because if there were intelligent beings out there and God didn't offer them salvation as well through Christ then it would be the supreme act of cruelty to let them exist in the first place.
I think that is too presumptuous. If 'aliens' showed themselves then we would have to learn about them and discern their true nature and what we can gather about them. But based on Gods character, I don't see your possible conclusion being a reality. God is just, so we know He would be dealing with them righteously as He does with humanity and angels.
Angels who serve God already have eternity with him, and those who reject him don't. They have not been offered redemption because they were with God all the time and have known his glory fully. When they reject him it is to me the unforgivable sin. So I do not see a logical problem with that.
I see and mostly agree with your logic. However, beings that exist without Gods direct presence are in a different reality to us based on how God deals with them and us. Something that comes to mind is that we will supposedly judge the angels (we on a whole or select humanity that chose God during our mortal lives? There could be more explored here but I don't know how much because I haven't done that exploration justly yet)
If there was another intelligent species out there, then what would be their purpose - eternal damnation or eternal salvation?
That question unfortunately is pointless right now as it is not a reality to postulate their salvation question, and even if it is in question. There's too many unknowns. Again, we know how God would deal with others based on His character, however. And we can take assurance in that, most definitely.
Also, their purpose would be life, just like ours. And their decision for it, or against it. Remember, God is love, he doesn't create zombies to worship Him. Even the servants of the Father (angels) are in direct servitude but have the ability to reject Him.

I know these answers are kind of vague. We could have fun discussing possible scenarios that concern you however, and see where that gets us. I'm game ^_^

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Re: What if..?

#19

Post by FlawedIntellect » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:27 pm

Silvertusk wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:Why would that be a deal breaker, ST? We already know of one set of intelligent creatures who have fallen (demons), and yet the Cross seems to have had no effect on them. Can you lay out your reasoning in a simple argument, because I'm missing a premise somewhere. The best I can see that you have is something like

Aliens exist
Jesus didn't die for aliens
Therefore Christianity is not true

Of course, I don't see how that follows at all. :?
Simply because if there were intelligent beings out there and God didn't offer them salvation as well through Christ then it would be the supreme act of cruelty to let them exist in the first place.

Angels who serve God already have eternity with him, and those who reject him don't. They have not been offered redemption because they were with God all the time and have known his glory fully. When they reject him it is to me the unforgivable sin. So I do not see a logical problem with that.

If there was another intelligent species out there, then what would be their purpose - eternal damnation or eternal salvation?

Silvertusk.
A few questions. Firstly, for the matter of Jesus's death and resurrection on the matter of aliens, aren't you presuming that the extraterrestrial organisms have souls and spirits? Secondly, aren't you presuming that they are fallen?

Who's to say that if there are extraterrestrial life forms, that they'd have to be sentient, with a soul and spirit, let alone that they'd be fallen?

Couldn't the extraterrestrial life simply be single-celled organisms? Or maybe animals, or plants, or fungi, or some combination, or maybe something different than these sorts of classifications?

And even if they were sentient, with a soul and spirit, would it not be possible that they're not fallen?

Also, why would people presume that they'd be more technologically advanced than us? Why can't they be less advanced than us? Or possibly more advanced in a way that doesn't involve space travel? (Though this is more a question for the ones who believe UFOs are aliens.)

Also, so what if they are fallen? What requires God to save them? I mean, after all, we don't even deserve to be saved, yet God chose to do so. Also, wouldn't it be possible for God to take a different approach to offering salvation specifically to their kind? The sacrifice Jesus took on for us, may be specifically for humanity and no other sentient race out there (except, possibly derivative organisms based off of humanity by result of genetic alteration, but that's highly speculative, and may be another debate.)

Anyway, all the above is just pointless speculation of alternative possibilities that you may not be considering, Silvertusk.

It's odd that this subject challenges you on the matter of theological implications on the existence of entities that may or may not even exist in the first place.

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Silvertusk
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Re: What if..?

#20

Post by Silvertusk » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:42 am

FlawedIntellect wrote:
A few questions. Firstly, for the matter of Jesus's death and resurrection on the matter of aliens, aren't you presuming that the extraterrestrial organisms have souls and spirits? Secondly, aren't you presuming that they are fallen?
I am assuming that if there were intelligent aliens out there then if they had freewill then they would indeed be fallen. I presume they would also have souls, otherwise what purpose would they serve?
FlawedIntellect wrote: Who's to say that if there are extraterrestrial life forms, that they'd have to be sentient, with a soul and spirit, let alone that they'd be fallen?
See above
FlawedIntellect wrote: Couldn't the extraterrestrial life simply be single-celled organisms? Or maybe animals, or plants, or fungi, or some combination, or maybe something different than these sorts of classifications?
Do not have a problem with this - I am talking about intelligent life.
FlawedIntellect wrote: And even if they were sentient, with a soul and spirit, would it not be possible that they're not fallen?
Possibly - but if they had freewill then they almost certainly would be.
FlawedIntellect wrote: Also, why would people presume that they'd be more technologically advanced than us? Why can't they be less advanced than us? Or possibly more advanced in a way that doesn't involve space travel? (Though this is more a question for the ones who believe UFOs are aliens.)
How technologically advanced they are is irrelevant to this issue. We are more technologically advanced than the people of 2000 years ago - yet the same issue applied to us.
FlawedIntellect wrote: Also, so what if they are fallen? What requires God to save them? I mean, after all, we don't even deserve to be saved, yet God chose to do so. Also, wouldn't it be possible for God to take a different approach to offering salvation specifically to their kind? The sacrifice Jesus took on for us, may be specifically for humanity and no other sentient race out there (except, possibly derivative organisms based off of humanity by result of genetic alteration, but that's highly speculative, and may be another debate.)
If they are fallen and there is no offer of salvation - then why did God create them in the first place - seems cruel to me. Also if there was another way to save them then why didn't God use that method with us - surely anything would be better then sending his son to die on a cross.
FlawedIntellect wrote: Anyway, all the above is just pointless speculation of alternative possibilities that you may not be considering, Silvertusk.


It's odd that this subject challenges you on the matter of theological implications on the existence of entities that may or may not even exist in the first place.
If they don't exist - then I do not have a problem. Personally I do not believe aliens in the classical sense exist anywhere - I believe we are alone.

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Silvertusk
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Re: What if..?

#21

Post by Silvertusk » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:47 am

Mallz wrote:
Simply because if there were intelligent beings out there and God didn't offer them salvation as well through Christ then it would be the supreme act of cruelty to let them exist in the first place.
I think that is too presumptuous. If 'aliens' showed themselves then we would have to learn about them and discern their true nature and what we can gather about them. But based on Gods character, I don't see your possible conclusion being a reality. God is just, so we know He would be dealing with them righteously as He does with humanity and angels.
Angels who serve God already have eternity with him, and those who reject him don't. They have not been offered redemption because they were with God all the time and have known his glory fully. When they reject him it is to me the unforgivable sin. So I do not see a logical problem with that.
I see and mostly agree with your logic. However, beings that exist without Gods direct presence are in a different reality to us based on how God deals with them and us. Something that comes to mind is that we will supposedly judge the angels (we on a whole or select humanity that chose God during our mortal lives? There could be more explored here but I don't know how much because I haven't done that exploration justly yet)
If there was another intelligent species out there, then what would be their purpose - eternal damnation or eternal salvation?
That question unfortunately is pointless right now as it is not a reality to postulate their salvation question, and even if it is in question. There's too many unknowns. Again, we know how God would deal with others based on His character, however. And we can take assurance in that, most definitely.
Also, their purpose would be life, just like ours. And their decision for it, or against it. Remember, God is love, he doesn't create zombies to worship Him. Even the servants of the Father (angels) are in direct servitude but have the ability to reject Him.

I know these answers are kind of vague. We could have fun discussing possible scenarios that concern you however, and see where that gets us. I'm game ^_^
Bear in mind that I stated that if God did offer them salvation as well - then I would not have a problem with aliens.

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