What if..?

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
Lonewolf
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What if..?

#1

Post by Lonewolf » Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:15 pm

What if it was proven that aliens from other physical worlds exist. Would that change your mind about creation and/or your belief in the God of the Bible?
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Re: What if..?

#2

Post by RickD » Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:08 pm

No. It's irrelevant to me. y>-) y>-)

FYI, Killer Klowns are from outer space. ;)
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24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: What if..?

#3

Post by Silvertusk » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:35 am

Lonewolf wrote:What if it was proven that aliens from other physical worlds exist. Would that change your mind about creation and/or your belief in the God of the Bible?

If this was intelligent life like Humans then this would have the biggest impact on me and my faith unless it was also the case that it was shown that Jesus had visited and died for them as well.

This for I think is the only stumbling block left - I have dealt with things like evolution and the multiverse - but this one would be the hardest for me and might be a deal breaker.

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Re: What if..?

#4

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:38 am

Lonewolf wrote:What if it was proven that aliens from other physical worlds exist. Would that change your mind about creation and/or your belief in the God of the Bible?
No, why would it?
According to the bible there are OTHER living rational sentient beings that were created by God other than humans ( what we call Angels) and if we were to find out that there are other beings as well then great !

That the bible which speaks to US on THIS world doesn't mention anything about beings from other worlds ( besides Angels of course) means that the bible is about US and not them.

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Re: What if..?

#5

Post by Jac3510 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:01 pm

Why would that be a deal breaker, ST? We already know of one set of intelligent creatures who have fallen (demons), and yet the Cross seems to have had no effect on them. Can you lay out your reasoning in a simple argument, because I'm missing a premise somewhere. The best I can see that you have is something like

Aliens exist
Jesus didn't die for aliens
Therefore Christianity is not true

Of course, I don't see how that follows at all. :?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: What if..?

#6

Post by abelcainsbrother » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:09 pm

Lonewolf wrote:What if it was proven that aliens from other physical worlds exist. Would that change your mind about creation and/or your belief in the God of the Bible?
I actually think there is evidence of aliens already however what people claim are aliens are actually fallen angels and so people are deceived about them.But if life was found on another planet,etc it would prove this wrong but there isn't and I don't believe life will be discovered on other planets.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: What if..?

#7

Post by Lonewolf » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:25 pm

Jac3510 wrote:Why would that be a deal breaker, ST? We already know of one set of intelligent creatures who have fallen (demons), and yet the Cross seems to have had no effect on them. Can you lay out your reasoning in a simple argument, because I'm missing a premise somewhere. The best I can see that you have is something like

Aliens exist
Jesus didn't die for aliens
Therefore Christianity is not true

Of course, I don't see how that follows at all. :?
Well I never said aliens exist (physical beings from another planet), because I don't believe they exist, period, but a lot of Christians do, so that's why I posed the question "what if?"

I'm not asking whether there's demons, and angelic beings in heaven, in the darkness or in some other dimension visible or invisible per say, i'm talking about real aliens as in the marcian, plutonian, etc., sense of the meaning. Would that change the way you understand the Bible or your concept of God? Would you still have the same faith, if any?
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Re: What if..?

#8

Post by Jac3510 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:43 pm

My question was directed at ST who said that intelligent aliens might be a "deal breaker." I don't understand why that would be the case. We already have biblical evidence of intelligent non-human creatures--angels and demons. So, what's the big deal if it turns out there are aliens?

As to your question, it would have absolutely zero impact on my faith. I would be surprised because I think the probability of their existence is pretty much nil, but would it affect my faith? Not in the slightest. I am totally confused as to why it would affect anyone's faith.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: What if..?

#9

Post by Lonewolf » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:49 pm

Jac3510 wrote: As to your question, it would have absolutely zero impact on my faith. I would be surprised because I think the probability of their existence is pretty much nil, but would it affect my faith? Not in the slightest. I am totally confused as to why it would affect anyone's faith.
So, would the struggle between good and evil, sin, redemption and all that goes with it, would it also have to play out in their (alien) world?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: What if..?

#10

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:54 am

Lonewolf wrote:
Jac3510 wrote: As to your question, it would have absolutely zero impact on my faith. I would be surprised because I think the probability of their existence is pretty much nil, but would it affect my faith? Not in the slightest. I am totally confused as to why it would affect anyone's faith.
So, would the struggle between good and evil, sin, redemption and all that goes with it, would it also have to play out in their (alien) world?
No, because it didn't even have to play out in our world. Again, I invite you to consider the angelic world. God didn't choose to become an angel to offer them salvation. He's under no obligation to do so with any other types of intelligences out there. He did with humanity, and that under no obligation to do so. Perhaps He thought it was fitting (not necessary) in large part because humans are the image of God. Now, perhaps God would do so with other types of intelligent creatures. But that has absolutely zero bearing on what He did or did not do with humanity through Jesus Christ.

In short, the only way this is a problem is if you are working from a theology of necessity and thereby a theology of divine obligation, as if God were somehow indebted to creation to do this or that. But if you hold to traditional theism, you would agree that God owes nothing to anyone. None can lay claim that He is in their debt in any shape, form, or fashion whatsoever. Salvation is by grace and grace alone. As such, there is no divine obligation, and thus there is no theology of necessity. There being no necessity, there is no claim one can make whereby non-human intelligences challenge what God has freely chosen to do through Christ for humanity.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: What if..?

#11

Post by Mallz » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:06 pm

For me, the impact of intelligent beings showing themselves would make me think two things.

1) Along with what others posted I would be biased to consider them anything other than demons as social programming for decades has opened the world for mass acceptance of aliens and would further along satans plans quit nicely in deceiving the world in similar fashion as the postmodern philosophical movement has achieved (although I would say would be even more detrimental, but necessary to come after) . And for similar reasons as then, people uninterested in God really, really want something tangible to direct them away from truth and back to themselves.

2) If it turned out theses aliens were in fact another species capable of our intellect, it would confuse me on Gods justice and Benevolence (to name a few characteristics) and open more questions that would need to be answered. I don't see the reason in creating past two different dimensional species until our rebellion is over. What happened to humanity and angels was unavoidable for who and what we both are. It seems inefficient to me to create 'others' with our capacity until the problem of sin is 'nipped in the bud'. It wouldn't effect the faith I already have, only open myself to further explore Gods character concerning the consequences of it being a reality (aliens existing) which in turn would teach me more about God (so it could be a good thing). And I could hypothesize ad nauseum about their existence and its effects, but in my opinion, it would be currently pointless. As most likely it would just be creating straw man...

I believe God reveals enough about His character through the Bible and the reality we live in to answer whatever questions and concerns come our way.

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Re: What if..?

#12

Post by Jac3510 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:15 am

Mallz wrote:For me, the impact of intelligent beings showing themselves would make me think two things.

1) Along with what others posted I would be biased to consider them anything other than demons as social programming for decades has opened the world for mass acceptance of aliens and would further along satans plans quit nicely in deceiving the world in similar fashion as the postmodern philosophical movement has achieved (although I would say would be even more detrimental, but necessary to come after) . And for similar reasons as then, people uninterested in God really, really want something tangible to direct them away from truth and back to themselves.

2) If it turned out theses aliens were in fact another species capable of our intellect, it would confuse me on Gods justice and Benevolence (to name a few characteristics) and open more questions that would need to be answered. I don't see the reason in creating past two different dimensional species until our rebellion is over. What happened to humanity and angels was unavoidable for who and what we both are. It seems inefficient to me to create 'others' with our capacity until the problem of sin is 'nipped in the bud'. It wouldn't effect the faith I already have, only open myself to further explore Gods character concerning the consequences of it being a reality (aliens existing) which in turn would teach me more about God (so it could be a good thing). And I could hypothesize ad nauseum about their existence and its effects, but in my opinion, it would be currently pointless. As most likely it would just be creating straw man...

I believe God reveals enough about His character through the Bible and the reality we live in to answer whatever questions and concerns come our way.
I don't know why you think that the angelic rebellino was "unavoidable." I don't see any reason at all to think that is the case . . . and I don't know what efficiency has to do with anything. God is free to do whatever He wants. He isn't constrained by such matters. It wasn't "efficient" for God to create us in the first place. He did so just because He decided to, for our benefit. God gets nothing out of the deal whatsoever. And the same would be true about other intelligent species. If God chose to create them, then that was His choice. Questions about their sin (if it exists) or their salvation (if it exists) are completely unrelated to our own. What bothers me about this thread is the underlying assumption that because of the way God has decided to treat humanity that there must be some sort of law that God must obey in how He must treat other parts of creation, assuming He decided to create those other parts, that is. All of this seems to put God on trial in a way that strikes me as completely inappropriate.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: What if..?

#13

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:46 am

All of this seems to put God on trial in a way that strikes me as completely inappropriate.
That is what skeptics do though, they put God on trial based on their own subjective morals ( since they don't believe in objective ones).
BUT is that wrong?
If God is so OVER AND ABOVE Our morals then should God not be able to "answer" these supposedly inferior moral issues?

That is the main "point of contention" for many skeptics, that God, the great and all powerful God, seems to be ( according to their criteria) not a very good God at all.
If He is NOT powerless then He is simply neglectful and cruel and not deserving of worship because He is uncaring, places no value on life and, quite simply, is LESS moral than humans.

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Re: What if..?

#14

Post by Jac3510 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:40 pm

I think you are still making the same mistake in a different way. God is neither more than or less than humans. You are still trying to make a comparison. You are trying to put God beside humans, as if God is A being and a human is A being and then comparing those two beings to some moral standard external to teh two of them. But that is absurd. God is not A being and there is no moral standard outside of Him. As such, God does not have to answer ANY charge, no matter what you think about it. The very fact that we lay a charge against God means that we don't get what He is.

Beyond that, though, I still think there is an unidentified premise that needs to be stated clearly. I asked for it in my original reply, and no one with a problem has bothered trying to answer me. The logic has to be something like . . .

Intelligent aliens exist
?
Therefore, Christianity is not true

What, for the love of all that is Holy, is the missing premise? People keep talking about sins and redemption. What does that have to do with anything? The implication seems to be that God is somehow obligated to save them, and that somehow that would have something to say about Jesus' work on the cross. But why must that be so on any count? Why does God have an obligation to save them? He has no such obligation to save fallen angels. And why does that have anything to do with Jesus' work on the cross? Why couldn't Jesus' work cover their sins, too (assuming they exists?). Or maybe they have their own Jesus. Or maybe they never sinned. Or maybe they are not the image of God as humanity is and perhaps they will be saved with the rest of creation when mankind is. There are WAY too many unknowns in all of this to say that intelligent alien life has anything to say whatosver to the truth or lackthereof regarding Christianity.

So I say again, if there are aliens, they would have absolutely ZERO impact on my faith. All it would do is give me more reason to believe that God exists, and that's a not a matter of faith, anyway, but of reason. If someone thinks that aliens existing suggests that Christianity is not true, they need to put it forward as a formal argument, not just assert that if there are aliens then Jesus isn't really the Christ.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: What if..?

#15

Post by Mallz » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:40 pm

I don't know why you think that the angelic rebellino was "unavoidable."
Because it happened and God knew it would before their creation. That might be presumptuous but given reality I thought to be a solid conclusion. Also, by creating reasoning beings, it seems some are bound to not live by God or for God and instead want their own way, which is the reality we are in. And I say 'some are bound' because that is what happened in two different reasoning species. So given what has been revealed to us, and that God knows everything, the cost of having creatures like us existing is to play out a set reality that teaches creations God is not only necessary but the ultimate reality to be a part of.
and I don't know what efficiency has to do with anything.

Efficiency based on the current revelation of reasoning beings we know about and the character of God. I think it fitting (And most definitely could be wrong) that God could spare future creations if two other species played out the consequences that come with rational minds. But maybe every reasoning creation might have to go through something similar as us and the angels for their own sake of justice? I don't know, I'm loosely theorizing here.
God is free to do whatever He wants. He isn't constrained by such matters. It wasn't "efficient" for God to create us in the first place. He did so just because He decided to, for our benefit. God gets nothing out of the deal whatsoever. And the same would be true about other intelligent species. If God chose to create them, then that was His choice. Questions about their sin (if it exists) or their salvation (if it exists) are completely unrelated to our own.
Agreed, except God does get pleasure from creating us, right? (when we aren't horrid anyways..)
My question here, is that their sin/salvation might be separate based on what they are and their relationship to God, but I'd argue that all reasoning creations are in some way, related and similar in free will and therefore sin would ultimately occur. Unless there's a different creation that somehow can avoid sin and still bee free reasoning beings. I don't see how that could happen based on what has been revealed to us and observed.
What bothers me about this thread is the underlying assumption that because of the way God has decided to treat humanity that there must be some sort of law that God must obey in how He must treat other parts of creation, assuming He decided to create those other parts, that is. All of this seems to put God on trial in a way that strikes me as completely inappropriate.
I don't see my words asserting this y:-? y#-o
Also, God is a consistent God of order, so I do think we can gather how He might react.. benevolent, just, immutable, merciful, good and gracious (just to name the ones I think of pertaining to this subject)
My desire is to explore Gods character. Again, if aliens do exist
It wouldn't effect the faith I already have, only open myself to further explore Gods character...
in a way that hasn't been able to be done based on lack of observation and divine revelation to the subject. But all I can do is speculate and possibly be horribly wrong because as of now, it's just guess work. But there might be some things that can be talked about with some certainty based of what we know of God.

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