The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

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Lonewolf
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The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#1

Post by Lonewolf » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:26 pm

Did the fall of man (Adam's sin) and the fall of Lucifer and the fallen angels, did it occur right about the same time, or was there an age old interlude between one event and the other?

If the rebellion started in heaven, and the fallen angels where cast down to earth, why then build a garden and place man in that same planet where the tempter and adversary with his minions could have a chance to continue their rebellion through man's fall?

That's the first part of the question., the second part is, if the fallen angels before they felled, were free to chose between serving God or not, and having chosen to rebel, why would man be made given the same free choice to act?

And finally, if there will be a resurrection for the believers, in which they will live for eternity, will they continue to be free to chose and act between serving God or not?
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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#2

Post by Lonewolf » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:47 pm

I'm going to put here, Stars comment from a diff topic altogether, because I think it sheds light on this my own questions posed., so this is basically for my reference only, unless of course it can be useful to any of you if you care to reply to the posted forum topic.
Starhunter wrote:If you can't get rid of the cause of death, you cannot get rid of death.

The Bible says God will destroy His last enemy - death. But according to the devil God will never be able to do that.

So ultimately the doctrine of natural immortality, is a lie by the father of lies, an imprecation and defiance of God.
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#3

Post by B. W. » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:25 pm

I prefer to hear what you think on the subject questions posed first...

What do you think?
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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#4

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:56 am

Lonewolf wrote:Did the fall of man (Adam's sin) and the fall of Lucifer and the fallen angels, did it occur right about the same time, or was there an age old interlude between one event and the other?

If the rebellion started in heaven, and the fallen angels where cast down to earth, why then build a garden and place man in that same planet where the tempter and adversary with his minions could have a chance to continue their rebellion through man's fall?

That's the first part of the question., the second part is, if the fallen angels before they felled, were free to chose between serving God or not, and having chosen to rebel, why would man be made given the same free choice to act?

And finally, if there will be a resurrection for the believers, in which they will live for eternity, will they continue to be free to chose and act between serving God or not?
There are a few views on the fall of Satan and His angels.
Some argue that it happened after Adam ate the apple, when God cursed Satan ( the serpent), some note that during Job' time Satan was still allowed to come and go as he pleased.
Jesus said that He saw Satan fall, BUT just because He used a past tense when speaking doesn't mean it was an event in the past ( we do that even know when we write at times too).
Revelation tells us it was after Satan tried to devour the Saviour Child BUT Revelation is so full of symbolisims and the chronology may or may not be sequential, so...
That the Sons of God came down before and during Noah's time is clear BUT that doesn't mean that is when they fell.
IMO, Satan's fall came when Christ's Kingdom came to be.

Revelation 12, which is the only place the speaks of the Fall ( other than Christ's comment on it in Luke 10:18), tells us that it was when Satan tried to devour the male child who was to rule all nations, that "His tail" brought down 1/3 of the "stars of heaven" (Angels). Some view the child as Israel BUT the context tends to point to Christ, especially here:
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”
It seems to be stating that the fall happened with the coming of Christ.

As for the free will thing for the resurrected believers:
Unless God removes all freedom of choice and makes all perfect like Him ( Which He won't/can't do), then yes, there is always the possibility of rebellion, BUT I think that in this NEW Earth and NEW Heaven we will be so in union with God through Christ that the notion of rebellion will be inconceivable.

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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#5

Post by 1over137 » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:27 pm

He ate fruit, not apple :wave:

(Someone once corrected me for this - memories)
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#6

Post by B. W. » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:51 am

1over137 wrote:He ate fruit, not apple :wave:

(Someone once corrected me for this - memories)
So that is why there are so many fruit loops in te world :lol:

Sorry Hana - could not resist that bad pun.... :ebiggrin:
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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#7

Post by RickD » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:58 pm

B. W. wrote:
1over137 wrote:He ate fruit, not apple :wave:

(Someone once corrected me for this - memories)
So that is why there are so many fruit loops in te world :lol:

Sorry Hana - could not resist that bad pun.... :ebiggrin:
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Froot loops or :fruitcake: :fruitcake:
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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#8

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:50 pm

I doubt Hana would understand the reference to Fruit Loops. Europeans don't eat that junk much breakfast cereal.

FL :D
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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#9

Post by 1over137 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:47 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I doubt Hana would understand the reference to Fruit Loops. Europeans don't eat that junk much breakfast cereal.

FL :D
Whatever
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#10

Post by Lonewolf » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:01 pm

Here's my kick., regardless of the froot loops pun intended or not., which I get a big delight in every bite :winking:

"Did" sin enter the world through one man's act, and through that act, death stepped into the world (?) ..

or had sin occurred/taken place in the heavenly places?

Had sin already taken place through someone else's fall, other than man?

And if so, was it then so that sin and/or death came into universal "existence" before man's fall ??

In other words, was it man who brought death upon man, or, was it someone else?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#11

Post by theophilus » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:23 am

Lonewolf wrote:Did the fall of man (Adam's sin) and the fall of Lucifer and the fallen angels, did it occur right about the same time, or was there an age old interlude between one event and the other?
The fact that the serpent tempted Eve shows that Lucifer had already fallen. We have know way of knowing how long ago that took place.
If the rebellion started in heaven, and the fallen angels where cast down to earth, why then build a garden and place man in that same planet where the tempter and adversary with his minions could have a chance to continue their rebellion through man's fall?

That's the first part of the question., the second part is, if the fallen angels before they felled, were free to chose between serving God or not, and having chosen to rebel, why would man be made given the same free choice to act?
One of the reasons God created the world was to put an end to Satan's rebellion. God knew Adam and Eve would sin and deliver the world to Satan's power but he planned to send Jesus into the world to die to atone for their sins. The death of Jesus did more than just allow us to be forgiven.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
(1 John 3:8 ESV)
The benefits of Jesus' death and resurrection extend beyond this world.
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
(Romans 8:20-23 ESV)
When Satan corrupted the human race he thought he had won a victory over God. In fact he was caught in the trap God had set for him.
And finally, if there will be a resurrection for the believers, in which they will live for eternity, will they continue to be free to chose and act between serving God or not?
When a person puts his faith in Jesus he is not only forgiven but receives a new nature which is incapable of sin. While we are still in the life we can sin because we still have our old natures. When we are resurrected we will no long have the old nature and we will have neither the desire nor the ability to sin.
God wants full custody of his children, not just visits on Sunday.

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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#12

Post by Lonewolf » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:24 am

Theophilo.. you wrote ~> "One of the reasons God created the world was to put an end to Satan's rebellion. God knew Adam and Eve would sin and deliver the world to Satan's power but he planned to send Jesus into the world to die to atone for their sins. The death of Jesus did more than just allow us to be forgiven."

^ ^ can you point me to any scripture where is say's that one of the reasons for God creating the world was to put an end to the adversary's rebellion?

and are you also saying that Adam's original nature was flawed, therefore he sinned, and that the new creatures we become will be unlike original man? v v

Quoting you ~> "a person puts his faith in Jesus he is not only forgiven but receives a new nature which is incapable of sin. While we are still in the life we can sin because we still have our old natures. When we are resurrected we will no long have the old nature and we will have neither the desire nor the ability to sin."
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#13

Post by melanie » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:42 am

theophilus wrote:
Lonewolf wrote:Did the fall of man (Adam's sin) and the fall of Lucifer and the fallen angels, did it occur right about the same time, or was there an age old interlude between one event and the other?
The fact that the serpent tempted Eve shows that Lucifer had already fallen. We have know way of knowing how long ago that took place.
If the rebellion started in heaven, and the fallen angels where cast down to earth, why then build a garden and place man in that same planet where the tempter and adversary with his minions could have a chance to continue their rebellion through man's fall?

That's the first part of the question., the second part is, if the fallen angels before they felled, were free to chose between serving God or not, and having chosen to rebel, why would man be made given the same free choice to act?
One of the reasons God created the world was to put an end to Satan's rebellion. God knew Adam and Eve would sin and deliver the world to Satan's power but he planned to send Jesus into the world to die to atone for their sins. The death of Jesus did more than just allow us to be forgiven.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
(1 John 3:8 ESV)
The benefits of Jesus' death and resurrection extend beyond this world.
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
(Romans 8:20-23 ESV)
When Satan corrupted the human race he thought he had won a victory over God. In fact he was caught in the trap God had set for him.
And finally, if there will be a resurrection for the believers, in which they will live for eternity, will they continue to be free to chose and act between serving God or not?
When a person puts his faith in Jesus he is not only forgiven but receives a new nature which is incapable of sin. While we are still in the life we can sin because we still have our old natures. When we are resurrected we will no long have the old nature and we will have neither the desire nor the ability to sin.
I really liked your response Theophilus.
I have thought often in the past why would God created Adam and Eve, knowing what the result would be in doing so, they would fall, fail. So why create a doomed from the beginning race?? Because the failure, redemption, resurrection and triumph were part of His divine plan from the onset.
"When Satan corrupted the human race he thought he had won a victory over God. In fact he was caught in the trap God had set for him"
I agree but would really like some further insight in how you understand this.

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Re: The Fall of Man & The Fall of Fallen Angels

#14

Post by theophilus » Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:12 pm

Lonewolf wrote:Theophilo.. you wrote ~> "One of the reasons God created the world was to put an end to Satan's rebellion. God knew Adam and Eve would sin and deliver the world to Satan's power but he planned to send Jesus into the world to die to atone for their sins. The death of Jesus did more than just allow us to be forgiven."

^ ^ can you point me to any scripture where is say's that one of the reasons for God creating the world was to put an end to the adversary's rebellion?
No, I don't know of any scripture that says that. I simply inferred it from the fact that that was what happened.
and are you also saying that Adam's original nature was flawed, therefore he sinned, and that the new creatures we become will be unlike original man? v v
His nature wasn't flawed. He could have freely chosen to do either good or evil; God knew what choice he would make and used the results of that choice to carry out his plan.

His disobedience brought evil into the world and on all of his descendants. One of the results is that in ourselves we are incapable of living without sinning.

If he had obeyed he would have brought good on them instead. There is no way of knowing what that good would be but perhaps it would have been a transformation of human nature so that we would be incapable of sinning.
God wants full custody of his children, not just visits on Sunday.

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