Ridiculously Basic Questions

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
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Ridiculously Basic Questions

#1

Post by SeekingSanctuary » Fri May 09, 2014 9:28 pm

Okay, so I did some reading on the Creation Wiki and skimmed an article on the main page, and I have a question for you guys:

In OEC views, I can see how Gap-Theory is different. The presence of a, well, gap. God made a world, there was a huge act of God after the Fall corrupted everything, and the seven days are him recreating everything. So I understand how this one is different.

Then there is Theistic Evolution and Progressive Creationism. Both have God gradually creating all life on Earth until the 'modern day'. I can see some cosmetic differences, but while sometimes the underlying logic is different (alternative interpretation of a key word vs the type of narrative) the conclusion is about the same. So, what is the major difference? Would it be accurate to say they have a lot of overlap?

While I'm here, the Creation Wiki claimed Progressive Creationism makes God subordinate to time. Am I missing something? Or did the Wiki mess up?

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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#2

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri May 09, 2014 11:59 pm

The biggest and most important overlap is that God did it, how he did it is of very little importance to faith. y@};-

Not sure why they would say that God is subordinate to time, you could say the same for Y.E.C because they are restricting him to 6 literal days.

When talking about God you pretty much throw time out, it makes no sense because God is timeless, he is not constrained by time whether it be large amounts or small amounts.

Does that make sense?
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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#3

Post by SeekingSanctuary » Sat May 10, 2014 7:26 am

Yes and I agree with everything you said. This isn't a crisis of faith, I just want to know why the two groups feel they are different enough to need different labels.

I agree with you on the time thing too. I see no reason why His method of choice put force Him into some kind of subordinate position, and figured maybe I just didn't understand the view properly.

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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#4

Post by theophilus » Tue May 13, 2014 9:09 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:The biggest and most important overlap is that God did it, how he did it is of very little importance to faith.
If how he did it isn't important why did he tell us how he did it? Every part of the Bible is important, including the details of how he created the earth.
Not sure why they would say that God is subordinate to time, you could say the same for Y.E.C because they are restricting him to 6 literal days.
We aren't restricting God; we simply believe what he says.
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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#5

Post by Jac3510 » Tue May 13, 2014 10:10 am

The difference is really just about whether molecules-to-man evolution is true. PC says it is not, that God created through moments of special creation. TE says it is. That's pretty much it.

As far as God being subordinate to time, I'm not aware of how that is true. I certainly seems that most OEC/PC defenders hold that God is subordinate to time, but I don't think that comes out of their OEC (on the other side, most YECs tend to hold that God is NOT subordinate to time). Now, people like WLC might argue, though, that it does, insofar as his creation model has God making the universe in the Big Bang and that, he says, draws God into time. But that has more to do with the question of God's relation to the universe, not to the YEC/OEC/TE debate. I know of other OEC and TEs who hold that God is not subordinate to time. So, on that point, I think the article is mistaken.
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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#6

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue May 13, 2014 10:25 am

The bible NEVER says HOW God created the universe, it only speaks of how long it took and a particular sequence ( that Genesis 1 and 2 do not agree on some can argue).
The Genesis account gives us the view that God created the world ( it can be argued that it doesn't directly speak if the creation of the universe) over a period of 6 days.
The term days can mean various things as we all know.
There are some difficulties in the literal AND concrete interpretation of the creation account, such as light and day existing BEFORE the sun was create ( of course that isn't a difficulty for those that view light and day as meaning something other than daytime and nighttime), but the debate about the literal AND concrete meaning of Genesis has been going on for centuries, so...

The point is that HOW the universe or world came to be is NOT discussed ( by How I mean the actual process per say).

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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#7

Post by SeekingSanctuary » Tue May 13, 2014 10:47 am

Jac3510 wrote:The difference is really just about whether molecules-to-man evolution is true. PC says it is not, that God created through moments of special creation. TE says it is. That's pretty much it.

As far as God being subordinate to time, I'm not aware of how that is true. I certainly seems that most OEC/PC defenders hold that God is subordinate to time, but I don't think that comes out of their OEC (on the other side, most YECs tend to hold that God is NOT subordinate to time). Now, people like WLC might argue, though, that it does, insofar as his creation model has God making the universe in the Big Bang and that, he says, draws God into time. But that has more to do with the question of God's relation to the universe, not to the YEC/OEC/TE debate. I know of other OEC and TEs who hold that God is not subordinate to time. So, on that point, I think the article is mistaken.

Thanks, this really answered my question. I appreciate it.

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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#8

Post by RickD » Tue May 13, 2014 2:34 pm

Then there's the issue of Adam and Eve. Every Progressive Creationist that I'm aware of believes Adam and Eve were real, historical people. As far as Theistic Evolutionists, there's a range from those who believe Adam and Eve were the first two humans, to those that believe Adam and Eve never existed.

That's just a difference that you may be interested in.
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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#9

Post by Jac3510 » Tue May 13, 2014 2:39 pm

That's true, Rick. I should have said that OEC/PE takes the text of Genesis 1 literally, whereas while some TEs would take the text literally, others allow for either a more or less figurative interpretation whereas still others are willing to take the entire account mythically. So there is a hermeneutical difference in the two positions, too.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#10

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue May 13, 2014 3:17 pm

theophilus wrote:If how he did it isn't important why did he tell us how he did it? Every part of the Bible is important, including the details of how he created the earth.
The thing is he does't tell us exactly how he did it, it gives a general view so that we can understand our place and God's place in creation.
We aren't restricting God; we simply believe what he says.
So do all the other people who have a different interpretation. :roll:
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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#11

Post by RickD » Tue May 13, 2014 3:54 pm

SeekingSanctuary wrote:
Then there is Theistic Evolution and Progressive Creationism. Both have God gradually creating all life on Earth until the 'modern day'. I can see some cosmetic differences, but while sometimes the underlying logic is different (alternative interpretation of a key word vs the type of narrative) the conclusion is about the same. So, what is the major difference? Would it be accurate to say they have a lot of overlap?
I would say "God gradually creating all life" would be a basic way to describe PC, not TE. I would say in general, but not always, TEs believe God created at the Big Bang, and everything up until now happened as God intended as a result of the BB. And some TEs believe God intervened at certain times (the special creation of Adam and Eve for example), while other TEs believe God was behind the Big Bang, and He hasn't interfered in creating since. TE is a really broad range.

And most PCs believe God created certain life at different times throughout the earth's history. Basically creating the life forms that would be able to live in the specific conditions on earth, at the different times in history.

And something that TE and PC has in common(generally speaking), is that both believe the age of the earth and the universe to be billions of years old.
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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#12

Post by SeekingSanctuary » Tue May 13, 2014 8:09 pm

Okay, I think I get it. Thanks for all the answers, guys.

So, how would you define this set of beliefs?:

*God did make the Earth and the universe via the Big Bang

*God did create life. He also set forth the creation of each kind, using preexisting life forms to do it.

*God did make Adam and Eve as the first MODERN humans, as in having a soul, however 'humans' existed earlier depending on definition

Progressive Creationism or Theistic Evolution?

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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#13

Post by RickD » Wed May 14, 2014 2:49 am

SeekingSanctuary wrote:Okay, I think I get it. Thanks for all the answers, guys.

So, how would you define this set of beliefs?:

*God did make the Earth and the universe via the Big Bang

*God did create life. He also set forth the creation of each kind, using preexisting life forms to do it.

*God did make Adam and Eve as the first MODERN humans, as in having a soul, however 'humans' existed earlier depending on definition

Progressive Creationism or Theistic Evolution?
All three statements taken together look like TE. Although I wouldn't rule out PC.

Is there a reason you ask about these specific statements?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Ridiculously Basic Questions

#14

Post by SeekingSanctuary » Wed May 14, 2014 7:08 am

RickD wrote:
SeekingSanctuary wrote:Okay, I think I get it. Thanks for all the answers, guys.

So, how would you define this set of beliefs?:

*God did make the Earth and the universe via the Big Bang

*God did create life. He also set forth the creation of each kind, using preexisting life forms to do it.

*God did make Adam and Eve as the first MODERN humans, as in having a soul, however 'humans' existed earlier depending on definition

Progressive Creationism or Theistic Evolution?
All three statements taken together look like TE. Although I wouldn't rule out PC.

Is there a reason you ask about these specific statements?
This is what I used to believe. I am leaning more straight metaphor now, but yeah. It was remembering this that made me wonder where the line dividing the two views was and if there was overlap or not.

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