Doublethink

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
theophilus
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Doublethink

#1

Post by theophilus » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:13 am

The word “doublethink” was first used by George Orwell in his novel 1984. It means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.

Orwell invented the word but the practice existed long before he was born. First Kings 18 describes the contest between Elijah and the prophets of Baal to determine who is the true God. Here is what Elijah said to the people.
And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.”
1 Kings 18:21 ESV
Some of the people practiced doublethink by worshipping both Baal and the LORD. God condemned this practice and demanded that they choose one side or the other.

There is a form of doublethink that is widely practiced today.

Most people believe the world came into existence as a result of impersonal natural processes and the life that exists on it came developed over a long period of time by a process of evolution. Others reject this and believe the Bible’s account that God created both the earth and the life that exists on it. And some accept both explanations as being true.

I wonder what Elijah would say to this third group if he were on earth today? Perhaps it would be something like this: “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the Bible is true believe it; if evolution is true believe it.”

The usual method of reconciling evolution with the Bible is to say that the first eleven chapters of Genesis aren’t literal history. The days of creation are really long periods of time and the story of Noah was a myth or an account of a flood that was local and not world wide.

This belief is often justified by claiming it will make it easier to convert unbelievers. People will be more likely to believe the gospel if they aren’t required to abandon their belief in evolution.

Here is something an atheist said on an internet forum that leads me to doubt the effectiveness of this strategy.
Using reason & logic, I have to reject the story of Noah as a truth. If I reject Noah’s ark as a truth, I cannot accept the genealogy of Jesus Christ as a truth. According to Luke’s gospel, both men are DIRECTLY linked via REAL people.

IF I reject the genealogy of Jesus Christ, then I cannot accept any other historical record (in the bible) about Jesus. I cannot be sure who he was, because the historical “records” are not be based on FACTUAL information.
Here is a comment by another atheist:
I can’t say it’s no longer used, because it is still used heavily – but the concept of “bible as the literal word of God” seems to be falling out of favor at a rapid pace in exchange for a much more liberal allegorical take in christian circles.

The problem here for Christians is that while at the moment it helps make their position seem more reasonable to those who don’t know better, down the line I see this as the loose thread poking out of the sweater… just begging someone to come over and pull.

I don’t think science will be the eventual undoing of this particular faith… I think they can manage it just fine for themselves once they have voided their own authority on their own beliefs.
Even atheists recognize the foolishness of trying to believe the Bible and also believe in evolution. The only way anyone will be able to convert either of these two is to prove to them that the theory of evolution is false and the Bible is true. Jesus said something that applies to this subject:
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
John 3:12 ESV
If we don’t believe what the Bible says about how the earth was created how can we expect others to believe what it says about how to get to heaven?

The reason so many people try to reconcile evolution and the Bible is the widespread belief that evolution has been scientifically proved to be true. Bible believers think they must either find a way to reconcile the Bible with evolutionary beliefs or abandon their faith in the Bible.

The claims made by evolutionists can’t be scientifically tested because they involve things which allegedly took place in the past. Most scientists begin their research believing that everything that exists came about by natural processes and without any kind of divine intervention and this influences their interpretation of the evidence they examine. When they find evidence against evolution they ignore it or interpret it to fit what they already believe.

There is scientific evidence against evolution and you can find some of it here:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... -evidences

Here are two good sites where you can find more evidence:

http://www.piltdownsuperman.com/

http://scienceagainstevolution.info/index.shtml
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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Doublethink

#2

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:53 am

I used to view Evolution (capital E, the theory) as the means by which God created all that we see but that just didn't square with what is clearly revealed in Genesis. In time - and with each successive reading of the Scriptures - I had to abandon Evolution as the ghost of my unsaved self. In other words, I had been saved for several years yet still clung to many worldly notions.

Our unregenerate nature is strong and comforting; I doubt many Christians will give up their belief in Evolution. Having said that, I don't consider it ''worshipping Baal'' to believe in Evolution or flying saucers or the Loch Ness Monster.

Pacifiers exist for a reason. :baby:

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Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Doublethink

#3

Post by Philip » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:14 am

And let's also clearly believe that OEC / Progressive Creationism does NOT believe in or embrace macroevolution. And most Progressive Creationists believe that the events and people in Genesis are both real and historical. The ONLY difference between YECs and OECs / Progressive Creationists SHOULD be the lengths of Creation time prior to Adam - as, once Adam is created/on the scene, they believe pretty much identically. As an OEC/Progressive Creationist, I am passionate about the historical/factual events described in Genesis, as I am with the rest of Scripture. In fact, if they are not historical, as I stated many times, the rest of Scripture makes little sense - as they are foundational to understanding the rest.

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Re: Doublethink

#4

Post by Thadeyus » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:09 pm

*Throws oar into the pond as they are tired and should know better*

So...all those Geologists? They are doing what, exactly? In regards to the age of the Earth?

Or how about the Astronomers? What are they doing exactly when they use their telescopes etc?

Much cheers to all.

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Doublethink

#5

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:20 pm

Thadeyus wrote:*Throws oar into the pond as they are tired and should know better*

So...all those Geologists? They are doing what, exactly? In regards to the age of the Earth?

Or how about the Astronomers? What are they doing exactly when they use their telescopes etc?

Much cheers to all.
You are off-topic. Read the original post, Einstein.

FL y:-"
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Doublethink

#6

Post by Thadeyus » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:27 pm

*Picks up oar*

No...pretty sure I'm still asking valid things based on the opening post.

To paraphrase. "One can't keep a literal Bible idea in their heads AND literal Evolution. That's doing Double Think"

So...replace 'Evolution' with 'Geology' or 'Astronomy' and the same meanings apply.

*Hefts oar*

Cheers to all.

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Doublethink

#7

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:02 pm

Thadeyus wrote:No...pretty sure I'm still asking valid things based on the opening post.
No you're not. You are not even able to comment on this because it is addressed to Christians.

*Whacks Thadeyus over the head with his oar.*

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Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Doublethink

#8

Post by Thadeyus » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:08 pm

Nope, still pretty sure I'm in the right frame of mind/questioning etc.

*Takes off hard hat and looks @ Furstentum Liechtenstein*

You should watch where you're swinging that thing. :P

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Re: Doublethink

#9

Post by RickD » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:12 pm

Ok, I've been gone for fifteen minutes, and the forum rules were changed? Why didn't anyone tell me that non-Christians couldn't reply to posts in this forum?

Oh wait, there is no rule against non-Christians posting in this forum. Silly me. :oops:

Pick up your oars and carry on.
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Re: Doublethink

#10

Post by RickD » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:22 pm

There's always going to be this same problem when people are using different meanings of 'evolution'.

For example, many progressive creationists have no problem with stellar evolution. Where as some hard line YECs don't believe stellar evolution is true. Most YECs and PCs don't believe in what is commonly called macro evolution. Both YECs and PCs believe in a literal interpretation of scripture, but many YECs believe only their interpretation is literal. Many Theistic Evolutionists believe scripture is the inerrant word of God, but don't interpret much of scripture literally. Some TEs believe in a literal, and historical Adam and Eve. Other TEs don't. Some 'evolutionists' believe in a naturalistic explanation for the origin of life. Other evolutionists believe evolution is the way life changed on earth over time, after a creator set the whole process in motion.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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RickD
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Re: Doublethink

#11

Post by RickD » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:29 pm

theophilus wrote:
If we don’t believe what the Bible says about how the earth was created how can we expect others to believe what it says about how to get to heaven?
This is your main point theophilus, and unfortunately for your point, the bible really doesn't say how the earth was created. That's one reason why creation beliefs are non-essential beliefs. One can believe YEC, or OEC, or some other creation belief, and still trust Christ for salvation.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Doublethink

#12

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:38 pm

RickD wrote:
theophilus wrote:
If we don’t believe what the Bible says about how the earth was created how can we expect others to believe what it says about how to get to heaven?
This is your main point theophilus, and unfortunately for your point, the bible really doesn't say how the earth was created. That's one reason why creation beliefs are non-essential beliefs. One can believe YEC, or OEC, or some other creation belief, and still trust Christ for salvation.
Bingo Bango Rick, So sick of all the bashing............. You can believe what is written in the Bible and still believe that God guided the Evolutionary process.

When you use the Bible as a science book you have missed the whole point of it, the Bible is the why not the how. y#-o
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Doublethink

#13

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:41 pm

I actually think what you have written here is "double think", you say you believe in God but you make attacks on other Christians faith because of non essential beliefs, you are not doing God's work here yet you profess him with your lips. Your misrepresentation of TE and untruthfulness is what I would call be being "double minded".

Let me highlight the lies in this quote from you.
Most people believe the world came into existence as a result of impersonal natural processes and the life that exists on it came developed over a long period of time by a process of evolution. Others reject this and believe the Bible’s account that God created both the earth and the life that exists on it.
And some accept both explanations as being true.
Pretty much you whole post is an intentional misrepresentation of O.E.C and T.E which makes you a liar. This is just one example out of your whole post, I ask you how can you profess Jesus' name while blatantly lying like this?

Being someone who accepts Evolution as the best scientific explanation we have, I do not see it as an impersonal process, I see it as a God guided process and marvel at it's complexity. So no I don't accept the mainstream explanation along with the Bible and no I am not double minded.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Doublethink

#14

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:35 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:You can believe what is written in the Bible and still believe that God guided the Evolutionary process.
Of course. This issue is of no relevance to salvation. YEC/OEC debates are mostly YUCK. Some people have too much time on their hands.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Doublethink

#15

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:58 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:You can believe what is written in the Bible and still believe that God guided the Evolutionary process.
Of course. This issue is of no relevance to salvation. YEC/OEC debates are mostly YUCK. Some people have too much time on their hands.

FL
I agree, but I won't stand by while people's faith is bought into question, I actually think this person should be banned and not only for their attacks on peoples faith but for hardly ever responding to anyone that answers him. :redcard: :sban:

I know I have called him out a few times and got no response, I wish the mods would be tougher on this sort of thing as it is unhealthy for the discussion board and it is unhealthy to make these sort of accusations towards our brothers and sisters.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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