Calvary Chapels YEC ?

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
User avatar
Dazed and Confused
Established Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:42 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: SoCal
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#1

Post by Dazed and Confused » Tue May 06, 2008 9:54 pm

I have been attending Calvary Chapels for about six years now and I love the work the Lord has done through this movement of His Spirit. As far as I have known the majority of Calvary's have been YEC's in the preaching and teaching of the Word, as well as the reference material they sell in their bookstores. But the following excerpt from an article of the “Word for Today quarterly 2008” which really was a pleasant surprise for me because of my association with Calvary. It is an article written by pastor Chuck Smith entitled “In The Beginning”, I will only post the concluding thought of the article.

“Overall, there are four major theories concerning the development of the universe:
The GAP Theory: There is a gap in time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
Young Earth Theory: God created the universe in a literal six days, and the earth is 10,000 years old.
Day-Age Theory: God created and formed the universe over a long period of time.
Theistic Evolution: God used evolution to create the universe (which I personally disagree with).
There are problems and difficulties with each theory mentioned above. I have found that when there are difficulties in the understanding of a text, I look to the entire Bible to determine if one view is superior to another view. However, with the issue of the age of the universe, I must confess that it is not always so easy to come to certain conclusions. I keep an open mind and file new details and facts in my brain under a folder called, “Wait for further information”.”

This is a very significant article for myself in that I can use it to demonstrate to my Calvary Chapel friends(all of them being YEC) that an old earth view point is not an apostate position to hold. I do wish that he would have mentioned what problems he had found with the Day Age Theory. However he has given me a great resource to share with my Calvary Chapel fellowship to encourage them to search out the issue of creation and science and not blindly follow the likes of Kent Hovind and other such ministries. Chuck Smith is the head pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa in California and the founder of the Calvary Chapel movement.
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5306
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 2 times

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#2

Post by Canuckster1127 » Tue May 06, 2008 11:53 pm

Dazed and Confused wrote:I have been attending Calvary Chapels for about six years now and I love the work the Lord has done through this movement of His Spirit. As far as I have known the majority of Calvary's have been YEC's in the preaching and teaching of the Word, as well as the reference material they sell in their bookstores. But the following excerpt from an article of the “Word for Today quarterly 2008” which really was a pleasant surprise for me because of my association with Calvary. It is an article written by pastor Chuck Smith entitled “In The Beginning”, I will only post the concluding thought of the article.

“Overall, there are four major theories concerning the development of the universe:
The GAP Theory: There is a gap in time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
Young Earth Theory: God created the universe in a literal six days, and the earth is 10,000 years old.
Day-Age Theory: God created and formed the universe over a long period of time.
Theistic Evolution: God used evolution to create the universe (which I personally disagree with).
There are problems and difficulties with each theory mentioned above. I have found that when there are difficulties in the understanding of a text, I look to the entire Bible to determine if one view is superior to another view. However, with the issue of the age of the universe, I must confess that it is not always so easy to come to certain conclusions. I keep an open mind and file new details and facts in my brain under a folder called, “Wait for further information”.”

This is a very significant article for myself in that I can use it to demonstrate to my Calvary Chapel friends(all of them being YEC) that an old earth view point is not an apostate position to hold. I do wish that he would have mentioned what problems he had found with the Day Age Theory. However he has given me a get resource to share with my Calvary Chapel fellowship to encourage them to search out the issue of creation and science and not blindly follow Kent Hovind! Chuck Smith is the head pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa in California and the founder of the Calvary Chapel movement.
The denomination I am a part of now is Presbyterian Church of America. They recently went through this issue at General Council and determined that both OEC and YEC were Biblically teneble and therefore they are not going to take a position between the two of them or discriminate against either position in ordination.

OEC is a growing number of denominations is being recognized as an orthodox position. Of course, many denominations have been OEC traditionally for many years, before the current YEC position has come to be defined in the past 90 years or so.

I think there are some forms of YEC that I would say go to the edge of heresy, especially when they seek to become exclusionist and contort and twist reason and logic to the point that it can't be relied upon. However, I don't think the form of creationism for most, YEC or OEC rises to the level of salvation or exclusion of fellowship. Following our denominations decision, our Church taught an adult seminar examining the OEC, YEC, Theistic evolution and ID positions and I was a regular presenter for the OEC position and participated in open debate. It was gratifying to have many YEC people come up who said they were convinced either of the truth or the plausibility of the OEC position.

Southern Baptists went through this some years back and attempted to "clean house" in the schools and seminaries going to far as to fire several professors. The SBC movement has diminished and paid a great price for this. I was actually licensed SBC in my younger days and I chose to go to another denomination, in part because of this issue.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
Dazed and Confused
Established Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:42 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: SoCal
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#3

Post by Dazed and Confused » Wed May 07, 2008 1:56 am

I am hopeful that the article Chuck Smith wrote well be a new beginning for Calavry Chapels throughout the country as it relates to the creation. Kent Hovind basically toured the majority of Calvary's prior to his incarceration and I personally feel he did quite a bit of damage to the body of believers there, myself included. But this recent publication on the creation is a great first step and one I feel lead to follow up on. My wife was unsure of what to think of my recent new stance that the earth is old, but it gave her piece of mind to know that one of her favorite pastors is open to other possibilities. And it gave me more credibilty and gives her the peace to convey the OEC view to our daughters. One of which will be starting college in another year and I want her to be prepared for the onslaught of indoctrination coming her way. Snice I came from a YEC background I understand all to well the associated feelings of confusion and distress. Hence my username "Dazed and Confused" I don't feel that way these days, but I guess I'll keep it. The YEC position makes you feel like you are betraying God's word if you don't believe in a literal six days. Thanks to all who support and volunteer here at godandscience.org this is a great ministry and much needed.
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5306
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 2 times

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#4

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed May 07, 2008 4:27 am

Dazed and Confused wrote:I am hopeful that the article Chuck Smith wrote well be a new beginning for Calavry Chapels throughout the country as it relates to the creation. Kent Hovind basically toured the majority of Calvary's prior to his incarceration and I personally feel he did quite a bit of damage to the body of believers there, myself included. But this recent publication on the creation is a great first step and one I feel lead to follow up on. My wife was unsure of what to think of my recent new stance that the earth is old, but it gave her piece of mind to know that one of her favorite pastors is open to other possibilities. And it gave me more credibilty and gives her the peace to convey the OEC view to our daughters. One of which will be starting college in another year and I want her to be prepared for the onslaught of indoctrination coming her way. Snice I came from a YEC background I understand all to well the associated feelings of confusion and distress. Hence my username "Dazed and Confused" I don't feel that way these days, but I guess I'll keep it. The YEC position makes you feel like you are betraying God's word if you don't believe in a literal six days. Thanks to all who support and volunteer here at godandscience.org this is a great ministry and much needed.
I understand. I was raised YEC and went to Christian Schools and I wrestled greatly with a lot of this early on as well.

Glad you're here and thank you for the encouragement.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
zoegirl
Old School
Posts: 3927
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: east coast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#5

Post by zoegirl » Wed May 07, 2008 6:12 am

Canuckster, I also go to PCA and also OPC

There actually was a member of the church I have attended that left because the church refused to denounce OEC.

(He has since come to my school to speak to another teacher's class about creationism, a very disagreeable occurence on my part because he represents the very dogmatic character of YEC. THis is quite a delicate situation, however, because the teacher is another member of the department!)
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5306
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 2 times

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#6

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed May 07, 2008 7:24 am

zoegirl wrote:Canuckster, I also go to PCA and also OPC

There actually was a member of the church I have attended that left because the church refused to denounce OEC.

(He has since come to my school to speak to another teacher's class about creationism, a very disagreeable occurence on my part because he represents the very dogmatic character of YEC. THis is quite a delicate situation, however, because the teacher is another member of the department!)
We may have had a few people leave the Church as well because they saw the PCA's unwillingness to renounce OEC as compromise. My church is about 1,200 people. Many of the people are Washington DC federal workers and surrounding industires and so it tends to be an upper-middle class congregation where Master's Degrees and Doctorates are pretty common things.

I don't mean to imply too much from this, but the fact is, the better educated people are, the more likely they are to either accept OEC or at least to acknowledge that it is a viable position.

There's an element of YEC (not all of it) that goes to the point of being anti-intellectual and even wearing that as a badge of honor in that they "accept the Bible" (really their interpretation of it) "and not the teachings of men." That's where I begin to move away from categorizing that brand of YEC from honest disagreement to "cult." God is the ultimate judge but there are those who actually believe that if you don't accept YEC, then you've compromised the Bible and therefore are either reprobate Christians or worse, non-believers.

One of the YEC proponents in the debates we staged in my Church is actually a very nice guy. He's an electrical engineer and very sharp and reasonably well informed. I can honestly say that while it was clear that we disagreed on this issue that I count him a friend and respect him and I believe it is accurate to say he sees me the same way. We actually teamed together in a subsequent debate with the positions of ID and Theistic Evolution and worked well together.

Anyone who feels that Biblical Authority is compromised by accepting OEC proponents, in my opinion is someone to be wary of. It's an important issue with important elements to work through, but it doesn't raise, in my opinion and experience, to the level of cardinal doctrine that should be used to winnow out believers from unbelievers.

I have some strong emotions on the subject because I've been impacted in some ways in ministry for my views, and I've seen very good men and women hurt badly by what I have to honestly say were some very self-righteous crusaders who lack the ability to disagree, in a tolerant fashion. They're the minority, but they can be a very vocal and manipulative minority to my observation and experience.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
zoegirl
Old School
Posts: 3927
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: east coast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#7

Post by zoegirl » Wed May 07, 2008 8:21 am

Yes, I agree with you.

The biggest problem I face with the teenagers is the reflex "that's stupid" or "that's unbiblical" with regards to OEC. And they refuse to investigate the matter (or their investigation is purely going to ICR or other YEC websites). Then, armed with this knowledge, they immediately pounce of any statement.

They then feel the pressure of being "heretical" if they investigate OEC because all of the YEC websites claim that to believe that the earth is young is tantamount to rejecting scripture.

I recently saw the most recent publication of the Bob Jones University Biology (2005) textbook for high school and was supremely disappointed in it. (the previous edition was 1993, it took them 12 years to publish a new edition and they didn't address any of the inaccuracies in the 1993 edition)

They flat out get some of the evolutionaty theory wrong. And give one tiny paragraph to Day-Age theory. (they finally did say that the water canopy theory is wrong but attributed this to creation scientists not to the myriad of scientists who disagreed so much earlier).
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

cslewislover
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2333
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#8

Post by cslewislover » Wed May 07, 2008 3:25 pm

Dazed and Confused. Hi. We've been going to Calvary Chapels for quite some time too, but we haven't been getting that quarterly (we should!). I heard a year ago or so that Chuck Smith had said the same thing on a radio broadcast. I had looked into the days/years controversy some a while back, and it seemed that the people arguing back and forth were using the same data! Anyway, I'm sure you can find lots on it, but the Archaeological Study Bible has a concise note on it, that is, what the various time words mean. That's a fun bible, by the way!
Image
"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis

User avatar
Dazed and Confused
Established Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:42 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: SoCal
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#9

Post by Dazed and Confused » Wed May 07, 2008 9:43 pm

cslewislover wrote:Dazed and Confused. Hi. We've been going to Calvary Chapels for quite some time too, but we haven't been getting that quarterly (we should!). I heard a year ago or so that Chuck Smith had said the same thing on a radio broadcast. I had looked into the days/years controversy some a while back, and it seemed that the people arguing back and forth were using the same data! Anyway, I'm sure you can find lots on it, but the Archaeological Study Bible has a concise note on it, that is, what the various time words mean. That's a fun bible, by the way!
I actually attended Calvary Costa Mesa(under Chuck Smith) for awhile and only left because I moved, but were every I am I always look for a Calvary first. Though in the end you need to find out what the pastor is preaching. I spoke to one of my closest friends tonight after service about OEC. I could tell it unnerved him some, YEC is so deeply rooted in most people in my church. I hope it doesn't affect my fellowship there, but I'm not holding my breath. As soon as this gets out into the open I will be inundated with questions. I can hear it now "your putting science above scripture" or "God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise". And to top it off we have a YEC speaker coming in next Sunday morning. I love how they posted it in the announcement last week "He has taught at a Christian school for ten years and has done much research". He has no credentials or degrees to list, but yet he is going to discuss science with us and how it relates to the bible. I feel like Kent Hovind Jr. is coming to town. I hope that doesn't sound to harsh it's not meant to be. Anyhow I believe I have that Archaeological bible in my library. I'll look up that reference on time, I'm assuming I will find it somewhere in Genesis. Maranatha!
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5306
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 2 times

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#10

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu May 08, 2008 4:35 am

Dazed and Confused wrote:
cslewislover wrote:Dazed and Confused. Hi. We've been going to Calvary Chapels for quite some time too, but we haven't been getting that quarterly (we should!). I heard a year ago or so that Chuck Smith had said the same thing on a radio broadcast. I had looked into the days/years controversy some a while back, and it seemed that the people arguing back and forth were using the same data! Anyway, I'm sure you can find lots on it, but the Archaeological Study Bible has a concise note on it, that is, what the various time words mean. That's a fun bible, by the way!
I actually attended Calvary Costa Mesa(under Chuck Smith) for awhile and only left because I moved, but were every I am I always look for a Calvary first. Though in the end you need to find out what the pastor is preaching. I spoke to one of my closest friends tonight after service about OEC. I could tell it unnerved him some, YEC is so deeply rooted in most people in my church. I hope it doesn't affect my fellowship there, but I'm not holding my breath. As soon as this gets out into the open I will be inundated with questions. I can hear it now "your putting science above scripture" or "God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise". And to top it off we have a YEC speaker coming in next Sunday morning. I love how they posted it in the announcement last week "He has taught at a Christian school for ten years and has done much research". He has no credentials or degrees to list, but yet he is going to discuss science with us and how it relates to the bible. I feel like Kent Hovind Jr. is coming to town. I hope that doesn't sound to harsh it's not meant to be. Anyhow I believe I have that Archaeological bible in my library. I'll look up that reference on time, I'm assuming I will find it somewhere in Genesis. Maranatha!
Best approach I've found is to focus on the Scriptural foundation for OEC. Science is important in confirming an OEC interpretation but it is not foundational.

Once people realize that YEC is a hermenuetic and not actually a clear teaching of Scripture then they become open to seeing the other alternative.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
Dazed and Confused
Established Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:42 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: SoCal
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#11

Post by Dazed and Confused » Thu May 08, 2008 6:42 am

Canuckster1127 wrote:
Best approach I've found is to focus on the Scriptural foundation for OEC. Science is important in confirming an OEC interpretation but it is not foundational.

Once people realize that YEC is a hermenuetic and not actually a clear teaching of Scripture then they become open to seeing the other alternative.
Good advice I can see your point. It does seems to be a more reasonable approach. Thanks!
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

cslewislover
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2333
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#12

Post by cslewislover » Sat May 24, 2008 3:50 pm

Dazed and Confused wrote:. . . the following excerpt from an article of the “Word for Today quarterly 2008” which really was a pleasant surprise for me because of my association with Calvary. It is an article written by pastor Chuck Smith entitled “In The Beginning”, I will only post the concluding thought of the article.

“Overall, there are four major theories concerning the development of the universe:
The GAP Theory: There is a gap in time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
Young Earth Theory: God created the universe in a literal six days, and the earth is 10,000 years old.
Day-Age Theory: God created and formed the universe over a long period of time.
Theistic Evolution: God used evolution to create the universe (which I personally disagree with).
There are problems and difficulties with each theory mentioned above. I have found that when there are difficulties in the understanding of a text, I look to the entire Bible to determine if one view is superior to another view. However, with the issue of the age of the universe, I must confess that it is not always so easy to come to certain conclusions. I keep an open mind and file new details and facts in my brain under a folder called, “Wait for further information”.”
Hi Dazed. Can you tell me which volume this is from? I sent in for a subscription to the quarterly, but I think I'll need to order a back issue if I want this article. Thanks!
Image
"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis

User avatar
Dazed and Confused
Established Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:42 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: SoCal
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#13

Post by Dazed and Confused » Mon May 26, 2008 7:37 pm

cslewislover wrote:
Hi Dazed. Can you tell me which volume this is from? I sent in for a subscription to the quarterly, but I think I'll need to order a back issue if I want this article. Thanks!
I dont have it with me at the moment (I'm at work shhh!). I'll look at it when I get home and post later and PM the info to you.
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

User avatar
Dazed and Confused
Established Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:42 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: SoCal
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#14

Post by Dazed and Confused » Tue May 27, 2008 7:37 pm

cslewislover wrote:
Hi Dazed. Can you tell me which volume this is from? I sent in for a subscription to the quarterly, but I think I'll need to order a back issue if I want this article. Thanks!
I believe this is the most current edition: The Word for Today, Winter 2008 Quarterly, Entitled:In The Beginning "World View In Crisis", hope you find it.
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

User avatar
August
Old School
Posts: 2402
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:22 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Texas
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Calvary Chapels YEC ?

#15

Post by August » Thu May 29, 2008 8:19 pm

Just a quick remark on this topic around putting science before the Bible. I know that is a stock accusation, I get that myself all the time even though I refuse to be bound by any position on creation right now.

Here is what I ask in response. Do you believe that the earth is rotating on its axis, and is in an orbit around the sun, while our solar system is also moving through space, as is our galaxy?

I've not had someone say they don't believe that. But then how do you know that, I ask? Well, it's something we learn from *gasp* science.

But how does that then reconcile with this: "Psa 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved." Does a literal interpretation not require that we deny everything we agreed to above? And that *gasp* science has influenced how we interpret that verse?

Therefore, everyone accepts some kind of admissible scientific evidence when it comes to Biblical interpretation. The age of the earth question has just become a sore issue because the militant atheists has used it as a stick to hit Christianity with, and now we self-flagellate because of it. A consistent Christian worldview requires that we view science as a way to know more about creation, not bury our heads in the sand when it provides us with more insight to its wonders.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com

Post Reply