Theories - Creation & Evolution Cancel Each Other Out?

[hermitville101]

But faith, to be solid, should be based on fact and reason. It would be foolish to believe something simply because someone says so or just because it's written in a holy book. (No disrespect to the Bible) Logic, reason, and science all give evidence of the validity of God, Jesus, and the Bible

Here is where things get interesting. Where do your perceptions of fact and reason come from?

From what I observe with my senses I suppose, and from what is natural...or something. I don't know how to define reason and logic, but they are things I use everyday and they have worked very well. Fact of course is built upon logic, so I guess what is observed goes into the brain for logical processing which produces observations and facts which lead to more general conclusions about life, in some cases regarding God and life and the meaning of life and all that jazz.

Not quite sure of the point of things...I'm a bit tired... <shrug> "night"

[Darwin_Rocks]

Someone wrote...

According to scientific theory, everything has a cause.

I would like to direct you to a terrific little book by Paul Davies, an Australian physicist, The Mind of God.

Recall that at the heart of quantum physics lies Heisenberg's uncertainty priniciple which states that ALL measurable quantities (position, momentum, energy) are subject to unpredictable fluctuations in their values. This unpredictability implies that the microworld (of pre-big bang) is indeterministic. Therefore Quantum events are not determined absolutely by preceding causes.

Basically there is a principle within physics that states that sometimes events DO NOT have a cause and again from The Mind of God:

By weakening the link between cause and effect, quantum mechanics provides a subtle way for us to circumvent the origin-of-the-universe problem. If a way can be found to permit the universe to come into existence from nothing as the result of a quantum fluctuation, the no laws of physics (and hence Science) would be violated.

How do you like THEM apples?

PS: Dont ban me, I may be what you regard as a non-believer but I wont belittle anybody on these forums, I just want to have a debate with some christians that are able to accept that not everyone follows the Bible.

[Mastermind]

This isn't a debate forum, so I doubt they'll let you stay.

[Kurieuo]

By weakening the link between cause and effect, quantum mechanics provides a subtle way for us to circumvent the origin-of-the-universe problem. If a way can be found to permit the universe to come into existence from nothing as the result of a quantum fluctuation, the no laws of physics (and hence Science) would be violated.

How do you like THEM apples?

The issue left out is that even quantum mechanics abide by laws. QM does not simply allow for anything and everything to happen. For something the size of the universe to just "pop" into existence via quantum tunneling or rather. If I remember correctly from when I last researched and dealt with this, you require a fair amount of time for such a scenario to work, and time did not come into existence until the universe popped into existence. And so, the origin of the universe is still left unexplained...

Kurieuo.

[Darwin_Rocks]

I see what you are saying, there would have to be a cause for a random fluctuation of propeties to occur or something would have had to have been around to create this idea of quantum mechanics, but during these times of uncertainty as a Scientific minded person I must remind you that there have been many things that religious minded people have used God to explain that Science has later disproved (eg, The Bible states that the Earth was created only thousands of years ago where as fossils have been proven to exist millions of years ago).

Who is to say that the initial 'spark' that triggered the big bang will not be explained by Science in the future?

[Mastermind]

The Bible says no such thing.

[August]

Darwin Rocks wrote:

I would like to direct you to a terrific little book by Paul Davies, an Australian physicist, The Mind of God.

What do you want to prove from this book? It was written to prove the existence of God from physics principles, and fails to do so, due to some gross miscalculations.

The correct quote is: Everything that comes into existence has a cause.

You also misinterpret the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. He challenged the notion of simple causality in nature, that every determinate cause in nature is followed by the resulting effect. Translated into "classical physics," this had meant that the future motion of a particle could be exactly predicted, or "determined," from a knowledge of its present position and momentum and all of the forces acting upon it. The uncertainty principle denies this, Heisenberg declared, because one cannot know the precise position and momentum of a particle at a given instant, so its future cannot be determined. One cannot calculate the precise future motion of a particle, but only a range of possibilities for the future motion of the particle.

Basically there is a principle within physics that states that sometimes events DO NOT have a cause...

By weakening the link between cause and effect, quantum mechanics provides a subtle way for us to circumvent the origin-of-the-universe problem. If a way can be found to permit the universe to come into existence from nothing as the result of a quantum fluctuation, the no laws of physics (and hence Science) would be violated.

Uh no, there isn't and it doesn't. This is all dribble and speculation. Where and when has this been observed and tested? Please describe the experiment that showed this, and the subsequent peer-review to validate.

Quantum mechanics is based on the principle that quantum events occur subject to finite probablilities within finite time intervals. A longer time interval increases the likelyhood of a quantum event ocurring. Outside of time, no such event is possible. Therefore, the origin of time, space, matter and energy could not have been created by a quantum event, such as the quantum tunneling described by Davies.

What is the "origin of the universe problem"?

How do you like THEM apples?

Whatever.

[August]

Darwin Rocks wrote:

The Bible states that the Earth was created only thousands of years ago where as fossils have been proven to exist millions of years ago

So if you are an unbeliever, how do you know what the Bible states? Why don't you quote the passages for us?

Who is to say that the initial 'spark' that triggered the big bang will not be explained by Science in the future?

Who is to say it will?

[Darwin_Rocks]

Where and when has this been observed and tested?

Indeed we are talking about Scientific theory here, There is no proof that something can come from nothing, what there is according to Davies is a weakness in the laws of physics a tiny loop hole that although may not allow for the spontaneous generation of the universe is a tiny step forward into Scientifically solving the origin of the Universe.

Tell me where has it been observed and tested that God created the Universe in a seven day time span? Nowhere because it has not. Whilst Science does not have the answer yet, what I am suggesting is that some day it may, and what are you going to do if Science proves that the universe can be created without God?

[Mastermind]

The bible does not state it was created in a 7 day span. That is one interpretation that more than half the people here don't hold true. Stop bringing it up.

[August]

I notice you did not answer any of my questions.

There is no proof that something can come from nothing, what there is according to Davies is a weakness in the laws of physics a tiny loop hole that although may not allow for the spontaneous generation of the universe is a tiny step forward into Scientifically solving the origin of the Universe.

So there is no evidence, but you choose to believe it anyway.

Tell me where has it been observed and tested that God created the Universe in a seven day time span?

You have no idea what you are talking about, obviously, as far as the Bible is concerned.

Nowhere because it has not. Whilst Science does not have the answer yet, what I am suggesting is that some day it may, and what are you going to do if Science proves that the universe can be created without God?

Christianity does not teach a "seven day time span". Suggest all you want, without proof it is mere speculation. You now want to turn this into a philosphical discussion, as opposed to a scientific one, since you have no evidence. Since you came here and made statements claiming to be scientific, prove it or admit it is nothing but scientific superstition.

So far, "science" has not proven anything.

[Kurieuo]

I see what you are saying, there would have to be a cause for a random fluctuation of propeties to occur or something would have had to have been around to create this idea of quantum mechanics,

Now you picked up upon one absurdity, which was there is not really "nothing" if quantum mechanics existed. But the argument I had in mind was actually more technical. I believe it was in Davies book God and the New Physics where he appealed to quantum tunneling to explain his theory that the universe literally popped into existence from nothing. Davies points out how virtual particles can pop into existence from nothingness through quantum tunneling. Apparently such particles can be produced out of "nothing," provided they are converted back into nothingness before the human observer can detect their appearance. Davies suggests that perhaps the cosmos could have popped into existence by this means. Yet, it has been pointed out by Ross in his book, The Creator and the Cosmos, that Davies forgot to acknowledge that for a system as massive as the universe, the time for it to disappear back into nothingness must be less than 10^-103 seconds (0.00000[up to 102 zeros]1). To say this is a moment a bit briefer than the age of the universe is a bit of an understatement.

Ross further points out that quantum mechanics is also founded on the concept that quantum events occur according to finite probabilities within finite intervals of time. So if the time interval is zero, then the probability of a quantum event occuring is also zero. As time began when the universe was created, the time interval is zero, and therefore quantum tunneling is eliminated as being a possible candidate for the "creator."

but during these times of uncertainty as a Scientific minded person I must remind you that there have been many things that religious minded people have used God to explain that Science has later disproved (eg, The Bible states that the Earth was created only thousands of years ago where as fossils have been proven to exist millions of years ago).

Where in the Bible is it stated that the Earth is only thousands of years old? The idea generally comes from Christians who view the days in Genesis as 24-hour days, but many Christians in the past have not believed them to be so (see http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... c&start=45 for example). And even science disproves scientific theories, yet this does not mean one can't advocate a particular scientific theory as currently the best available explanation from all we know? Should we never believe anything because we never have 100% certainty?

As far as I can see, science is entirely compatible with my beliefs in God. Additionally, I see many "real" gaps (e.g., origin of life problem, origin of universe, etc) that have not been explained naturally, and as scientific knowledge has grown, the problems that require solving increase for any natural explanation. Such a trend suggests to me that these are true gaps unexplainable by any natural explanation. Therefore I think it more plausible to consider God as the explanation, rather than natural processes.

Who is to say that the initial 'spark' that triggered the big bang will not be explained by Science in the future?

Actually, because we can't observe the creation of our universe from "outside" there appears no way science can tell us what triggered our universe coming into being. We can only measure what is inside our universe. So if we accept that our universe had a beginning, then our universe isn't eternal. This leaves many who don't believe in God in an uncomfortable situations for:

1) Something that begins to exist has a cause for its existence.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore it has a cause for its existence.

Now if our universe hasn't always existed, and it is absurd to think that something can just popped into existence from entirely nothing, then something outside of our universe caused its existence...

Kurieuo.

[Darwin_Rocks]

prove it or admit it is nothing but scientific superstition.

I thought I had already admitted that I didn't know any Scientific fact, but if I didn't here it is...

IM NOT A SCIENTIST AND DONT REALLY KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

I'm here to learn, I'm intensely interested in theology and the science behind religion and I'm deeply sorry if I've offended anybody by claiming that Science is better I truly wish to learn a contemporary christian view on creation and so far Kurieuo has given me that view point.

When I threw in that little tidbit about Quantum Physics I thought I had found a loop hole in the hole Creation myth but clearly I have not...

A lot of Christians I know are dead keen on converting others into Christianity and I'm at a stage in my life where I'm questioning everything so now is your chance, try to convert me, you think Christianity is the [poop]? Prove it.

[Kurieuo]

A lot of Christians I know are dead keen on converting others into Christianity and I'm at a stage in my life where I'm questioning everything so now is your chance, try to convert me, you think Christianity is the ****? Prove it.

Can't prove anything to someone who doesn't want to accept. It's up to you to seek God out, not up to us to shove Him down your throat.

Kurieuo.

[Felgar]

All I have to add is that even if we could somehow prove how the universe began, I would bet that it probably would seem to appear out of nothing - popping into existance. Would this invalidate my beliefs? No, because the scientific observation cannot infer reason. So even if it were proven, it would still stand that God is the reason that it popped into existance from nothingness.