MAECs

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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theophilus
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MAECs

#1

Post by theophilus » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:55 am

Among those who believe that God created the earth there is disagreement as to how and when he did so. Some believe he created it in six literal days, just as the Bible says. They are known as young earth creationists or YECs. Others believe he created the earth gradually over millions of years and used evolution to bring the human race into existence. They are known as old earth creationists or OECs.

I have sometimes wondered if there were some who could be called middle age earth creationists or MAECs, and I have come to the conclusion that such a group exists.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Peter 3:8 ESV

On the basis of this verse some believe that each of the days of creation is one thousand years long. Like old earth creationists they ignore the fact that the Bible says each day of creation consisted of an evening and a morning, but they shouldn’t be classed among the old earth creationists because six thousand years is much less than the millions of years OECs believe in. There aren’t many MAECs but they do exist.
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Re: MAECs

#2

Post by DBowling » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:32 am

theophilus wrote:Among those who believe that God created the earth there is disagreement as to how and when he did so. Some believe he created it in six literal days, just as the Bible says. They are known as young earth creationists or YECs. Others believe he created the earth gradually over millions of years and used evolution to bring the human race into existence. They are known as old earth creationists or OECs.

I have sometimes wondered if there were some who could be called middle age earth creationists or MAECs, and I have come to the conclusion that such a group exists.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Peter 3:8 ESV

On the basis of this verse some believe that each of the days of creation is one thousand years long. Like old earth creationists they ignore the fact that the Bible says each day of creation consisted of an evening and a morning, but they shouldn’t be classed among the old earth creationists because six thousand years is much less than the millions of years OECs believe in. There aren’t many MAECs but they do exist.
2 Peter 3:8 is just one of many examples in Scripture that demonstrates that day when used in Scripture can refer to time periods other than 24 hours... which comes into direct conflict with the assertions of Young Earthers.

Another example is Genesis 2:4 - How long is a Genesis 2:4 day/yom?
And how many hours pass between evening and morning?
... it's not 24 hours...
which means that the phrase "there was evening and there was morning, day x" doesn't even support the YEC premise of a 24 hour Genesis 1 "day"

Yes I am an OEC, and I also believe that God created earth in 6 days, just like the Bible says.
Where the Young Earthers are mistaken is their assertion that day = 24 hours within the context of Genesis 1. Genesis 2:4 (and even 2 Peter 3:8) demonstrate the flaw behind the assertion that day when used in Scripture must equal 24 hours.

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Re: MAECs

#3

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:14 am

theophilus wrote:
Among those who believe that God created the earth there is disagreement as to how and when he did so. Some believe he created it in six literal days, just as the Bible says. They are known as young earth creationists or YECs. Others believe he created the earth gradually over millions of years and used evolution to bring the human race into existence. They are known as old earth creationists or OECs.
Making false accusations again, I see. Disagreeing with someone's position is one thing, but misrepresenting it is another.

I'm an OEC, and I believe God created the earth in 6 literal days. I just acknowledge that there's more than one literal meaning of yom .
On the basis of this verse some believe that each of the days of creation is one thousand years long. Like old earth creationists they ignore the fact that the Bible says each day of creation consisted of an evening and a morning, but they shouldn’t be classed among the old earth creationists because six thousand years is much less than the millions of years OECs believe in. There aren’t many MAECs but they do exist.
Ignore the fact ?

Come on theophilus, you're better than that. Just because someone disagrees with your interpretation, that doesn't mean one "ignores" scripture.
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Re: MAECs

#4

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:18 am

Theophilus,

This is your last warning. Stop misrepresenting other believers who disagree with your YEC interpretation.

You've been warned in the past, and continue to bear false witness against your brothers in Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
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Re: MAECs

#5

Post by B. W. » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:47 pm

theophilus wrote:Among those who believe that God created the earth there is disagreement as to how and when he did so. Some believe he created it in six literal days, just as the Bible says. They are known as young earth creationists or YECs. Others believe he created the earth gradually over millions of years and used evolution to bring the human race into existence. They are known as old earth creationists or OECs.

I have sometimes wondered if there were some who could be called middle age earth creationists or MAECs, and I have come to the conclusion that such a group exists.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Peter 3:8 ESV

On the basis of this verse some believe that each of the days of creation is one thousand years long. Like old earth creationists they ignore the fact that the Bible says each day of creation consisted of an evening and a morning, but they shouldn’t be classed among the old earth creationists because six thousand years is much less than the millions of years OECs believe in. There aren’t many MAECs but they do exist.
Many OEC, like myself, do not believe in evolution at all. To imply that is insulting and suggest you qualify that statement.

I know many-many YEC's who are not militant in their creation view and we get along splendidly so I do not make out all YEC's as militant types.

OEC based upon the logic of the scripture due to God's timelessness. Nobody rightly knows how long in our mortal time measurement it took God to create the entire the universe including us. God's timing is not our timing and that is a principle found throughout the bible.

There are two basic creation views that respect God's timing as unknown and that is OEC and GAP. These are theories as is YEC.

Our salvation is not based on a literal interpretation of Genesis chapter one. It is in Jesus Christ alone.

We are saved by God's grace alone thru the agency of faith in God's grace, not working real hard to argue and divide the church to accept the works based system of the militant YEC's who say all must accept and change their point of view or else they are heretics worthy of damnation.

Remember Job he was what in his own eyes? note Job 32:1 and Job 34:5 for the answer

Job got a shocking answer from YHWH regarding this in Job 38:1-41...
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
Job 38:2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Job 38:5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 38:8 "Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
Job 38:9 When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band;
Job 38:10 When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors;
Job 38:11 When I said, 'This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!'

Job 38:12 "Have you commanded the morning since your days began, And caused the dawn to know its place,
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It takes on form like clay under a seal, And stands out like a garment.
Job 38:15 From the wicked their light is withheld, And the upraised arm is broken.
Job 38:16 "Have you entered the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in search of the depths?

Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this.
Job 38:19 "Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And darkness, where is its place,
Job 38:20 That you may take it to its territory, That you may know the paths to its home?
Job 38:21 Do you know it, because you were born then, Or because the number of your days is great?
Job 38:22 "Have you entered the treasury of snow, Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
Job 38:23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble, For the day of battle and war?

Job 38:24 By what way is light diffused, Or the east wind scattered over the earth?

Job 38:25 "Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water, Or a path for the thunderbolt,
Job 38:26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one, A wilderness in which there is no man;
Job 38:27 To satisfy the desolate waste, And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
Job 38:28 Has the rain a father? Or who has begotten the drops of dew?

Job 38:29 From whose womb comes the ice? And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
Job 38:30 The waters harden like stone, And the surface of the deep is frozen.

Job 38:31 "Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion?
Job 38:32 Can you bring out Mazzaroth in its season? Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?

Job 38:33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth?

Job 38:34 "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, That an abundance of water may cover you?
Job 38:35 Can you send out lightnings, that they may go, And say to you, 'Here we are!'?
Job 38:36 Who has put wisdom in the mind? Or who has given understanding to the heart?
Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
Job 38:38 When the dust hardens in clumps, And the clods cling together?
Job 38:39 "Can you hunt the prey for the lion, Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
Job 38:40 When they crouch in their dens, Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?
Job 38:41 Who provides food for the raven, When its young ones cry to God, And wander about for lack of food? NKJV
With both OEC and GAP we do not lay claim that to be righteous in God's sight one must absolutely believe the length of creation days as do the Militant YEC with their 24 literal earth day hour creation or else...cause if you do - you have no faith in God ad he hates you, and then also guilty of spreading evolution, which God also hates.. or any such other nonsense.

In fact, naming all the animals refers to naming them by their character traits such as the Hebrew word for Dog means - one who is all heart...

That takes time and then, to be operated on, a female ,Eve, appears to help Adam name the animals etc and etc tend and take care of things on earth - all in one 24 hour mortal time earth day - created then boom name all the animals, then boom - surgery and Eve and both without clothes - boom - how is that possible in a literal 24 hour day when the days of creation from day one are based on God's concept of a timelessness? Wouldn't his days in heaven share timelessness too?

Though not cannon...of scripture
Book of Jubilees 3:1-9 makes note of this:

Vs 1-23

And on the six days of the second week we brought, according to the word of God, unto Adam all the beasts, and all the cattle, and all the birds, and everything that moves on the earth, and everything that moves in the water, according to their kinds, and according to their types: the beasts on the first day; the cattle on the second day; the birds on the third day; and all that which moves on the earth on the fourth day; and that which moves in the water on the fifth day.
And Adam named them all by their respective names, and as he called them, so was their name.
And on these five days Adam saw all these, male and female, according to every kind that was on the earth, but he was alone and found no helpmeet for him.
And the Lord said unto us: 'It is not good that the man should be alone: let us make a helpmeet for him.'
And the Lord our God caused a deep sleep to fall upon him, and he slept, and He took for the woman one rib from amongst his ribs, and this rib was the origin of the woman from amongst his ribs, and He built up the flesh in its stead, and built the woman.
And He awaked Adam out of his sleep and on awaking he rose on the sixth day, and He brought her to him, and he knew her, and said unto her: 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called [my] wife; because she was taken from her husband.'
Therefore shall man and wife be one and therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.
In the first week was Adam created, and the rib -his wife: in the second week He showed her unto him: and for this reason the commandment was given to keep in their defilement, for a male seven days, and for a female twice seven days.
And after Adam had completed forty days in the land where he had been created, we brought him into the garden of Eden to till and keep it, but his wife they brought in on the eightieth day, and after this she entered into the garden of Eden.
And in the first week of the first jubilee, [1-7 A.M.] Adam and his wife were in the garden of Eden for seven years tilling and keeping it, and we gave him work and we instructed him to do everything that is suitable for tillage.
And he tilled (the garden), and was naked and knew it not, and was not ashamed, and he protected the garden from the birds and beasts and cattle, and gathered its fruit, and eat, and put aside the residue for himself and for his wife [and put aside that which was being kept].

Vs 15-23

And after the completion of the seven years, which he had completed there, seven years exactly, [8 A.M.] and in the second month, on the seventeenth day (of the month), the serpent came and approached the woman, and the serpent said to the woman, 'Hath God commanded you, saying, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?'
And she said to it, 'Of all the fruit of the trees of the garden God hath said unto us, Eat; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden God hath said unto us, Ye shall not eat thereof, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'
And the serpent said unto the woman, 'Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that on the day ye shall eat thereof, your eyes will be opened, and ye will be as gods, and ye will know good and evil.
And the woman saw the tree that it was agreeable and pleasant to the eye, and that its fruit was good for food, and she took thereof and eat.
And when she had first covered her shame with figleaves, she gave thereof to Adam and he eat, and his eyes were opened, and he saw that he was naked.
And he took figleaves and sewed (them) together, and made an apron for himself, and ,covered his shame.
And God cursed the serpent, and was wroth with it for ever . . .

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/jubilees/3.htm
Do you notice the strange time keeping mentioned?

God's timeless days are only known to him until we get to heaven and find out for ourselves how long his creation days actually were. In the meantime, he created - that settles it for me. No evolution of lower sludge that transforms into ta an ape and then a man after billions of years - is well stupid.

I just respect God and not worry about how long or short it took him to create - just from reading the bible text of Genesis chapter one alone from the ancient Hebrew as well as its pictograph letters reveals God took however long he deemed it to take to get things going. With that, I am content and pretty much care less for endless worthless arguments denoting the age of the earth. What a waste of time when humanity is lost and people's eternity is at stake...

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theophilus
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Re: MAECs

#6

Post by theophilus » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:51 pm

RickD wrote:Theophilus,

This is your last warning. Stop misrepresenting other believers who disagree with your YEC interpretation.

You've been warned in the past, and continue to bear false witness against your brothers in Christ.
Who have I misrepresented?
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Re: MAECs

#7

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:33 pm

theophilus wrote:
RickD wrote:Theophilus,

This is your last warning. Stop misrepresenting other believers who disagree with your YEC interpretation.

You've been warned in the past, and continue to bear false witness against your brothers in Christ.
Who have I misrepresented?
Old earth creationists.

It's not only YECs that believe God created in 6 literal days. Many OECs believe that too.

And assuming that OECs ignore scripture, just because OECs interpret scripture differently than you, is the same kind of misrepresentation that you've been warned about in the past.

If you're going to argue against what OECs believe, it's only fair that you argue against what they actually believe, and not a misrepresentation of what they believe.
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"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: MAECs

#8

Post by abelcainsbrother » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:39 pm

theophilus wrote:Among those who believe that God created the earth there is disagreement as to how and when he did so. Some believe he created it in six literal days, just as the Bible says. They are known as young earth creationists or YECs. Others believe he created the earth gradually over millions of years and used evolution to bring the human race into existence. They are known as old earth creationists or OECs.

I have sometimes wondered if there were some who could be called middle age earth creationists or MAECs, and I have come to the conclusion that such a group exists.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Peter 3:8 ESV

On the basis of this verse some believe that each of the days of creation is one thousand years long. Like old earth creationists they ignore the fact that the Bible says each day of creation consisted of an evening and a morning, but they shouldn’t be classed among the old earth creationists because six thousand years is much less than the millions of years OECs believe in. There aren’t many MAECs but they do exist.

Have you ever thought about this? God is eternal,based on this,does it really make sense to believe eternal God sat around for all eternity until just 6000 years ago? I don't think so. I know young earth creationism is popular but I believe it is not the correct interpretation.I believe that we can get as much time that we need for our particular creation interpretation because I believe God has been busy based on the fact he is eternal.

As far as OEC's and stretching the days out to be long periods of time it can be done if you understand the hebrew word "yom" as others have suggested.I think it is important to understand why they do this and you should consider it. It is based on the Big Bang Theory,now you may reject the Big Bang however if you understand the Big Bang and then read Genesis 1 stretching out the days to be long periods of time it is an almost perfect match with what science and the Big bang Theory says,I think the only difference is science says life started in the water and the bible says land,but other than that it matches up.This is why they stretch the days out to be long periods of time.It lines up with science.

I have not heard of Middle Age Earth Creationism but I would consider it as a viable creation interpretation.I believe that instead of just latching on to one like people tend to do all creation interpretations should be considered.And by considered I mean considered based on what they actually teach and why. Because alot of times YEC's misrepresent what OEC's and Gap Theorists actually believe and why and they teach things contrary to what the word of God says making it seem like they're right,when it is they are wrong.This is what I use to find out who is right and who is wrong - Let God be true and every man a liar. So if it is so important for you to find the correct creation interpretation you should consider them all based on their own merits instead of relying on YEC's to tell you. One reason why I now accept the Gap Theory is realizing just how wrong YEC's were when they explained why it is wrong.It is they that are wrong.
Last edited by abelcainsbrother on Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MAECs

#9

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:47 pm

acb wrote:
Have you ever thought about this? God is eternal,based on this,does it really make sense to believe eternal God sat around for all eternity until just 6000 years ago?
What percentage of eternity is 6000 years?

What percentage of eternity is 14 billion years?
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Re: MAECs

#10

Post by abelcainsbrother » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:55 pm

RickD wrote:
acb wrote:
Have you ever thought about this? God is eternal,based on this,does it really make sense to believe eternal God sat around for all eternity until just 6000 years ago?
What percentage of eternity is 6000 years?

What percentage of eternity is 14 billion years?
Exactly! Whether it is 6000 years or 14 billion years it is nothing for God.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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