Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
DBowling
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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#31

Post by DBowling » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:33 pm

Philip wrote:I, like Heiser, see the possibilities between the wording of the text, the questions of Genesis 1 and 2. But what should we make of these verses, IF the text is saying there were pre-Adamic men?

Genesis 3: 20: "The man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living."

Of course, this is written by Moses looking back in time, and post flood - which would make the statement true of all people living at the time Moses wrote the text - as he's looking back in time. It doesn't say, ALL people ever to live came from Eve - at least not explicitly.
Well I think we can determine what Eve's name is not referring to...
It is not referring to all living things, because a number of living creatures were created before the time of Eve.

I think Eve's name is referring to the fact that Adam and Eve were the first humans to come into relationship with God, therefore Eve is the Spiritual mother of all humans who have come into Spiritual life through their relationship with God.
Also, according to the OT genealogies, Eve is the genetic progenitor of God's covenant people.
And this one - Romans 5:12-21: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned."
What WORLD is Moses speaking of - the world existing since the flood, through Adam's line, that also would have encompassed all people in Noah's day? And certainly any men existing before Adam would have sinned.
Well... Satan was on the planet prior to the fall of mankind, so I think that Paul is indicating that with Adam's sin, sin became part of the human condition and sin and spiritual death passed to all mankind.
Note... Paul does not identify the mechanism through which sin and death passed to all mankind. He just states that sin and spiritual death passed to all mankind as a result of the Fall. (It was Augustine who proposed that the mechanism was procreation)
There is also the question of the scale of the flood - did it only wipe out humanity in that ancient Mesopotamian region, or was a greater humanity spared?
Based on the meaning of the Hebrew word 'erets' and the geographical context of Gen 2-9, I believe that Scripture is claiming that the Flood wiped out all the inhabitants of 'the land' of Mesopotamia... And did not impact the humans who inhabited the rest of the planet at the time.
So, is it an English translation issue, in that, upon creating (pre-Adam?) humanity in Genesis 1, God refers to them as man, and yet, in Genesis 5 (as it refers to Adam's line), the text reveals that God also (just happened to?) name them "man?"
Yes... Hebrew grammar, articles, and context determine whether the Hebrew word 'adam' refers to mankind in general or the specific historical person who was named Adam.
All I know is, SOMEHOW, the text is true.
Amen! :)

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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#32

Post by Philip » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:31 pm

Philip: All I know is, SOMEHOW, the text is true.
DB: Amen! :)
You know, DB, at that great banquet to come, I might just have so many questions that I'll forget to eat - as well as forget I'll have all eternity to pick Mose's and the apostles brains - "What did you know and when did you know it?" "Why, why, why..."

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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#33

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:48 pm

Jasonf8676 wrote:What books or writers inspired you to become an OEC?
I too was YEC and what led me out of it was trying to find out info about Lucifer's flood and I could not find much info about it,but was curious about it.Over time I learned about the Gap Theory and started looking into it and and it was like suddenly I had found the ultimate truth when it comes to creation interpretations.

Then I realized that YEC's were teaching out right lies about the Gap Theory and Gap Theorists who were Christian men and women and some of the most influential Christians too of their time who led many people to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ,and yet YEC's totally disrepect these men implying that they were decieved and got away from scripture,etc and how we must stand on the word of God and not let the world influence us,etc.

Then I saw teachings by Ken Ham and Kent Hovind on the Gap Theory and it was painful to hear them teach about why it is wrong,when they did not even know enough about it to even know if it was right or wrong.It was based on lies and misinformation and they try to link it to Day Age and Theistic Evolution eventhough no Gap Theorist has ever accepted evolution and we have disagreements with Day Agers and Theistic Evolutionists.

But what I notice that makes the Gap Theory the most true to me is how it fits in with the scientific evidence the easiest and without having to make science fit into the bible. This is not apparent at first because the Gap Theory does not have big ministries that have scientists working to see how scenice fits into it like YEC,Day Age and Theistic Evolutionists do. You kindof have to put in the work yourself to see how the science fits into it and I'll admit that alot of Gap Theorists don't know how to do this,they can teach it biblically but don't know about science and know how it fits into it.

But once you do the evidence fits perfectly and much more seemly to me compared to all other creation interpretations. The reason why the Gap Theory fits best into the scientific evidence is because science is based on evolution and before Charles Darwin and evolution came along the scientific evidence was used for the Gap Theory and so eventhough more has been discovered in science since then,it still fits the same evidence that evolutionists go by,yet it is a different theory than evolution is.

Instead of trying to prove life evolves based on the evidence in the earth we prove that there was a former world that existed before God made this world we now live in and there was a gap between that world and this world,so that when we look at the fossils of extinct life that lived atleast millions of years ago we simply see the kind of life tht lived in that world before it perished and before God made this world we now live in.Two different worlds with no evolution in them and a gap between them instead of just one big world going back billions of years with evolution in it.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

DBowling
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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#34

Post by DBowling » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:55 am

DBowling wrote: While you are in Genesis 11, how about a quick math experiment.
In Genesis 11:10-26 we have the genealogy from Noah's son, Shem to Abraham.

According to Gen 11 how many years passed between the time of Shem and the time of Abraham?
When do you think Shem lived?
When do you think Abraham lived?
Do you see the problem?
There is actually an interesting textual issue involving the Shem to Abraham genealogy in Genesis 11 which has a significant impact on the timing of Noah's Flood.

The Textual issue involves the difference between the Hebrew Masoretic Text of Genesis (which is the basis of most English translations of the Old Testament) and the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament (which predates the Masoretic Text by hundreds of years).

Let's start with the Masoretic Test.
Here is Genesis 11:10-26 (the genealogy from Shem to Abraham) from the NASB.
10 These are the records of the generations of Shem. Shem was one hundred years old, and became the father of Arpachshad two years after the flood; 11 and Shem lived five hundred years after he became the father of Arpachshad, and he had other sons and daughters.
12 Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah; 13 and Arpachshad lived four hundred and three years after he became the father of Shelah, and he had other sons and daughters.
14 Shelah lived thirty years, and became the father of Eber; 15 and Shelah lived four hundred and three years after he became the father of Eber, and he had other sons and daughters.
16 Eber lived thirty-four years, and became the father of Peleg; 17 and Eber lived four hundred and thirty years after he became the father of Peleg, and he had other sons and daughters.
18 Peleg lived thirty years, and became the father of Reu; 19 and Peleg lived two hundred and nine years after he became the father of Reu, and he had other sons and daughters.
20 Reu lived thirty-two years, and became the father of Serug; 21 and Reu lived two hundred and seven years after he became the father of Serug, and he had othersons and daughters.
22 Serug lived thirty years, and became the father of Nahor; 23 and Serug lived two hundred years after he became the father of Nahor, and he had other sons and daughters.
24 Nahor lived twenty-nine years, and became the father of Terah; 25 and Nahor lived one hundred and nineteen years after he became the father of Terah, and he had other sons and daughters.
26 Terah lived seventy years, and became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran.
According to the Masoretic Text 292 years passed between the Flood and the birth of Abraham

Now let's compare this with the Genealogy from Luke 3:34-38
34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Heber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Notice the difference (that I hilighted in red)?
According to the Masoretic Text...
Arphaxad is the father of Shelah

According to Luke...
Arphaxad is the father of Cainan
and then Cainan is the father of Shelah

So what does Hugh Ross do with this (and I really do like Hugh Ross)?
He asserts that the difference between Luke and the Masoretic Text of Genesis 11 implies that there are gaps in the Shem to Abraham genealogy that we see in Genesis 11.
And if there are gaps in the Genesis 11 text, then that means that we can 'recalibrate' the text by inserting tens of thousands of years worth of gaps into the text of Genesis 11.

Even though I have lots of respect for Hugh Ross, I have real problems with taking those kinds of liberties with the Biblical Text.

So... Is there another solution to the discrepancy between the Genesis 11 and Luke 3 genealogies?
Yes... there is.
If you look at the Septuagint text of Genesis 11:10-26, all of a sudden all these discrepancies disappear.

Here's an English translation of the Septuagint text of Genesis 11:10-26
10 And these are the generations of Sem: and Sem was a hundred years old when he begot Arphaxad, the second year after the flood. 11 And Sem lived, after he had begotten Arphaxad, five hundred years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. 12 And Arphaxad lived a hundred and thirty-five years, and begot Cainan. 13 And Arphaxad lived after he had begotten Cainan, four hundred years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. And Cainan lived a hundred and thirty years and begot Sala; and Canaan lived after he had begotten Sala, three hundred and thirty years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. 14 And Sala lived an hundred and thirty years, and begot Heber. 15 And Sala lived after he had begotten Heber, three hundred and thirty years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. 16 And Heber lived an hundred and thirty-four years, and begot Phaleg. 17 And Heber lived after he had begotten Phaleg two hundred and seventy years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. 18 And Phaleg lived and hundred and thirty years, and begot Ragau. 19 And Phaleg lived after he had begotten Ragau, two hundred and nine years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. 20 And Ragau lived and hundred thirty and two years, and begot Seruch. 21 And Raau lived after he had begotten Seruch, two hundred and seven years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. 22 And Seruch lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot Nachor. 23 And Seruch lived after he had begotten Nachor, two hundred years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. 24 And Nachor lived a hundred and seventy-nine years, and begot Tharrha. 25 And Nachor lived after he had begotten Tharrha, an hundred and twenty-five years, and begot sons and daughters, and he died. 26 And Tharrha lived seventy years, and begot Abram, and Nachor, and Arrhan.
There are a couple of significant differences we see here in the Septuagint text of Genesis 11.
1. Like Luke's genealogy the Septuagint says
Arphaxad is the father of Cainan
and then Cainan is the father of Shelah (Sala)
2. In the Septuagint, the ages of the fathers when their sons are born is 100 years greater than in the Masoretic text, which significantly changes the time that passes between the Flood and the birth of Abraham.

According to the Septuagint 1172 years passed between the Flood and the birth of Abraham as opposed to 292 years for the Masoretic Text.

If we go with the Septuagint text for Genesis 11:10-26.
1. The Genesis 11 genealogy matches the Luke 3 genealogy. There are no 'gaps' in the Genesis 11 genealogy, and thus no excuse to try to insert tens of thousands of years into the text of Genesis 11.
2. The amount of time that passes between the Flood and Abraham according to Genesis 11 is 1172 years. Which actually corresponds with what we see in extraScriptural history.
Abraham was born around 1800 - 2000 BC timeframe.
The Mesopotamian Deluge took place around 3000 BC.

In Summary...
The Septuagint text of Genesis 11:10-26... Eliminates discrepancies with Luke 3, eliminates supposed 'gaps' in the Genesis 11 Genealogy, and the Scriptural time between the Flood and the time of Abraham is corroborated by extraScriptural Mesopotamian history.

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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#35

Post by Philip » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:07 am

DB: So what does Hugh Ross do with this (and I really do like Hugh Ross)?
He asserts that the difference between Luke and the Masoretic Text of Genesis 11 implies that there are gaps in the Shem to Abraham genealogy that we see in Genesis 11.
And if there are gaps in the Genesis 11 text, then that means that we can 'recalibrate' the text by inserting tens of thousands of years worth of gaps into the text of Genesis 11.

Even though I have lots of respect for Hugh Ross, I have real problems with taking those kinds of liberties with the Biblical Text.
This is because Hugh has a particular scientific narrative he's continuously trying to match up with Scripture, but he's not a theologian or Bible scholar. This one reason why I think RTB's focus should alter somewhat.

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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#36

Post by Audie » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:25 pm

Philip wrote:
Philip: All I know is, SOMEHOW, the text is true.
DB: Amen! :)
You know, DB, at that great banquet to come, I might just have so many questions that I'll forget to eat - as well as forget I'll have all eternity to pick Mose's and the apostles brains - "What did you know and when did you know it?" "Why, why, why..."

Would you be satisfied to just be given all the answers?

Philip
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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#37

Post by Philip » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:04 pm

Audie: Would you be satisfied to just be given all the answers?
Hello, Audie - not sure what you mean here?

BTW, are you in HK?

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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#38

Post by Audie » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:11 am

Philip wrote:
Audie: Would you be satisfied to just be given all the answers?
Hello, Audie - not sure what you mean here?

BTW, are you in HK?
I mean, isnt a process of discovery much more interesting
than being handed all the answers. Hey God, how does...


Still in USA for now.

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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#39

Post by Hortator » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:40 am

Audie wrote: Would you be satisfied to just be given all the answers?
Yes

Audie
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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#40

Post by Audie » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:39 am

Hortator wrote:
Audie wrote: Would you be satisfied to just be given all the answers?
Yes
And I like the discovery process.

Philip
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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#41

Post by Philip » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:50 am

Mysteries are fun, so many are also captivating to the point of our obsession - which is to be expected of things caused by God. As there can only ever be one Being with the mind of God, this means there will forever be certain mysteries, unless He decides to reveal whatever ones.

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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#42

Post by Hortator » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:58 am

Audie wrote:
Hortator wrote:
Audie wrote: Would you be satisfied to just be given all the answers?
Yes
And I like the discovery process.
What have you found?

Audie
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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#43

Post by Audie » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:22 pm

Hortator wrote:
Audie wrote:
Hortator wrote:
Audie wrote: Would you be satisfied to just be given all the answers?
Yes
And I like the discovery process.
What have you found?
Uh, a lack of interest in same on your part?

Hortator
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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#44

Post by Hortator » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:59 pm

Audie wrote:
Hortator wrote:
Audie wrote:
Hortator wrote:
Audie wrote: Would you be satisfied to just be given all the answers?
Yes
And I like the discovery process.
What have you found?
Uh, a lack of interest in same on your part?
I don’t understand, could you please rephrase that?

Audie
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Re: Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

#45

Post by Audie » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:57 pm

"Same", meaning discovery.

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