The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#166

Post by trulyenlightened » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:02 pm

RickD wrote:
trulyenlightened wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
He was best known for his remark that, "Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings".
Probably one of the dumbest things have read.
I seriously doubt that! Don
It is pretty stupid. And ignorant.
It may not be true, but it is certainly NOT stupid or ignorant. Do you actually know what he meant by using these idioms? If you consider an off-the-cuff comment, made by a professor in three science disciplines, as the dumbest thing you've ever read, then it must be a comprehension error. Maybe you can point out how religion has contributed directly towards our understanding of the natural world(please not the scientific method again)? No? Maybe any religious explanation of miracles, the power of prayer, life after death, evidence of Creation, etc., that can withstand any level of scientific scrutiny? No? How about any practical application that have arisen from any metaphysical or philosophical argument? No? Maybe you would like to elaborate on WHY you feel this way, instead of simply asserting ad hoc comments?

Has science taken us to the moon and back? Absolutely! Or, is this statement stupid and ignorant? Does science tend to disprove the necessity for Religious Beliefs, or the existence of Deities? It certainly does. Once we accept that God created everything, no further explanation is possible. No further evidence is possible as well. We literally hit an intellectual brick wall(or building). Although, his statement is a rational depiction of Religion vs Science, it was never meant to be an accurate depiction. Either way, it is certainly not stupid or ignorant. Don

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#167

Post by trulyenlightened » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:20 pm

RickD wrote:
trulyenlightened wrote:
RickD wrote:
Evil is so subjective.
And Pathos, without Logos, is intellectually dishonest. I don't think you'd like me to list the evils done by all cultures, in the name of Theism or Deism? But you are correct evil IS subjective, but pain and suffering is both. This includes the suffering of humans, plant and animal life, and even our environment. By the way, these practices are still going on today by governments. It is amazing just how persuasive money can be. Don
Unless truth is objective, all I'm reading in your post is, "blah blah blah blah I like chocolate ice cream blah blah blah."
You didn't mention "truth", in your post did you? You said, "evil is so subjective" didn't you? So spare me using "truth" as your straw man. Maybe it's best that you avoid responding to any of the points I raised, and stick with, "blah blah blah blah I like chocolate ice cream blah blah blah." It least it's intellectually honest. Don

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#168

Post by RickD » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:35 pm

trulyenlightened wrote:
RickD wrote:
trulyenlightened wrote:
RickD wrote:
Evil is so subjective.
And Pathos, without Logos, is intellectually dishonest. I don't think you'd like me to list the evils done by all cultures, in the name of Theism or Deism? But you are correct evil IS subjective, but pain and suffering is both. This includes the suffering of humans, plant and animal life, and even our environment. By the way, these practices are still going on today by governments. It is amazing just how persuasive money can be. Don
Unless truth is objective, all I'm reading in your post is, "blah blah blah blah I like chocolate ice cream blah blah blah."
You didn't mention "truth", in your post did you? You said, "evil is so subjective" didn't you? So spare me using "truth" as your straw man. Maybe it's best that you avoid responding to any of the points I raised, and stick with, "blah blah blah blah I like chocolate ice cream blah blah blah." It least it's intellectually honest. Don
Genius,

Your post made a claim. I was merely pointing out that if objective truth doesn't exist, your claim is meaningless. Since objective truth does exist, I don't think your post is meaningless. So you can stop being so defensive, as if I were actually attacking you. Got it?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#169

Post by trulyenlightened » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:39 pm

RickD wrote:
trulyenlightened wrote:
RickD wrote:
trulyenlightened wrote:
RickD wrote: Evil is so subjective.
And Pathos, without Logos, is intellectually dishonest. I don't think you'd like me to list the evils done by all cultures, in the name of Theism or Deism? But you are correct evil IS subjective, but pain and suffering is both. This includes the suffering of humans, plant and animal life, and even our environment. By the way, these practices are still going on today by governments. It is amazing just how persuasive money can be. Don
Unless truth is objective, all I'm reading in your post is, "blah blah blah blah I like chocolate ice cream blah blah blah."
You didn't mention "truth", in your post did you? You said, "evil is so subjective" didn't you? So spare me using "truth" as your straw man. Maybe it's best that you avoid responding to any of the points I raised, and stick with, "blah blah blah blah I like chocolate ice cream blah blah blah." It least it's intellectually honest. Don
Genius,

Your post made a claim. I was merely pointing out that if objective truth doesn't exist, your claim is meaningless. Since objective truth does exist, I don't think your post is meaningless. So you can stop being so defensive, as if I were actually attacking you. Got it?
I am certainly not being defensive. I don't think that being honest is also being defensive. I was never talking about truth or objective truth, no matter how you try to twist my meaning to fit your narrative. You ignored all my points, and spoke only about a quote, that was stated as an off-the-cuff quip(cherry-picking). Truth is relative, therefore it can never be totally objective. Therefore, there can be no ultimate or objective truth. Maybe you can point out at least one thing that everyone on the planet can agree to, as being the same truth. Why didn't you address the claims that I made, instead of the blah, blah, blah, remark? Why did you say, "I don't think your post is meaningless", since I never claimed that you did? I think that it is you that is being defensive. So, if your response to my posts, is only going to be using straw men(truth, objective truth, meaningless, and ice cream), it might be better that you don't respond at all. This might avoid more comments of my being defensive. Don

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#170

Post by trulyenlightened » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:19 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
think that there are very few of us that could resist the temptation of immortality and acquiring all knowledge, just by eating a piece of fruit. So I think forgiveness was certainly in order, from a benevolent God. Why tempt your own creation in the first place? Why was this temptation in anyway necessary for a God? Especially since a God would know its outcome in the first place. In either case why should I suffer for the sins of the Father? If my father was a racist and a bigot, should I be labeled the same, or carry the guilt? Of course not! There may have been many local floods, but there is certainly no evidence to support a global flood. I also doubt the possibility of creating a population of 8 Billion people, populating all corners of the earth, in only a few thousand years. Especially when life span, disease, food, death, environment, clean water, war, stillborn, etc., are factored into the equation.
Why would you think that God tempted them, or anyone?
They were warned and yes, God knew they would disobey ( as any all-knowing entity would).
Of course God forgave them, if He hadn't not only would they have been killed instantly but He wouldn't have watched over them and provided for them.
God gave them what they wanted, so that they could learn what they needed.
I don't blame you for not understanding the story of the fall since you don't understand God AND even many believers don't understand that fall either.
The inherited "sin" from Adam was mortality, was that each individual person would now be responsible for their own actions and beliefs.
But this is another topic...

In regards to evolution and reconciling it with Genesis not only is reconciliation not needed in my view, since Genesis is NOT about the origins of Man in THAT way, it's not even relevant.
Since man was evolved and not created, this point is certainly irreconcilable and relevant. Also, knowledge of "THE FALL" is not exclusive to any one faith. Anyone can find similar stories in books that pre-date this Biblical account. If you will just read Gen 2:4 - Gen 3:24(or do you want me to highlight the specific quotes?), you might understand why anyone would think, that it was an unfair temptation.Telling anyone who was created in your own image, not to eat from a tree that would give you immortality and all knowledge(good and evil), is like telling a child not to touch anything in the candy store. But if you do touch anything, you will become a God just like me. Simply by eating its fruits, you could achieve immortality and ultimate wisdom, would be too much of a temptation for anyone. Let alone the first human. Did God and the snake not tell Adam and Eve about these properties of the Tree of Life? What is the meaning of, "And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden". What is meant by, "like one of us". "The fall" opens up a very long slippery slope of questions. Seems He was more worried about man living forever, than with man himself. Other problems I have noticed,

1. Why did God need to ask why Adam and Eve were hiding, who told them they were naked, or if they had eaten from the
Tree of Life?
2. If Adam and Eve had indeed eaten from the Tree of Life, wouldn't they be Gods themselves, and produce a lineage of
all-knowing demigods, at least?
3. Was banishment from the Garden to not allow man access to the Tree of Life, or for mans disobedience to God?
4. Was Adam banned because he listened to his wife, or because he ate from the Tree of life?
5. Why would a God need Cherubs and flaming swords to guard the way to the Tree of Life?
6. Why would a God clothe Adam and Eve?
7. Why would a loving, kind, benevolent God "curse all wild animals because of a deceitful serpent; or for
Adam put "enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel(promoting spousal abuse); or to tell Eve that, "I will make your pains in childbearing
very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will
rule over you(machismo)"?
8. Did God change his mind, and not put Adam and Eve to death, as he said? Of course then we would not be around to
even ask this question.
9. What was the purpose of the Tree of Life in the Garden, accept as a temptation? Could animals eat from it?

The questions are rhetorical, since the answers are directly found in scripture. Not only are these not the actions of a benevolent, loving, and forgiving Deity, but can be seen from scripture alone, as the direct cause of all the evil and suffering in the world today. Now I'm sure no one here can attest to what is in the mind of a God, or what His reasoning might be. But to punish all life for the actions of three, seems hardly reasonable and a bit over the top to me. And claiming abolition of sin through faith or good works, seems more like a "carrot on a stick". It also seems ironic to me that pious servitude is also based on the temptation of everlasting life, through faith in Jesus. If God did not want his first created human to be immortal, why would you think we have any hope? Hopefully, this will not be just another stupid and ignorant post. Don

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#171

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:25 am

Welcome to "half assed" Sunday school religion 101 !! LOL !
At least now we get where you are getting your flawed understanding of Christianity.

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#172

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:30 am

People do horrific things in the name of religion.
People do horrific things in the name of science.
People do horrific things in the name of tribalism.
People do horrific things when they believe that good is subjective.
People do horrific things when they believe good is objective.

The pattern, you see, is that PEOPLE do horrific things.
The difference is that with Christianity, horrific things done in it's name are done IN SPITE of Christ not because of Him.
The difference is that in Christianity the measure and reason why those acts are horrific are clear.
The difference is that Christianity addresses WHY people do those things AND WHY they are WRONG.

So...

The quote should not be " Science flies people to the moon and religion flies people into buildings" which is an ignorant statement to be sure, it should be:
People can take ANYTHING and from that, do horrific things.

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#173

Post by trulyenlightened » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:12 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Welcome to "half assed" Sunday school religion 101 !! LOL !
At least now we get where you are getting your flawed understanding of Christianity.
As usual, more condescending, ad hom, groundless inferences. I certainly don't hear any proof or explanation behind your silly comments. Why is my account of, "The Fall" flawed? Why is my understanding of Christianity flawed? Don't worry, I don't expect any answers to my concerns. It's always easier to be intellectually dishonest, and simply cast aspersions without backing them up. I do my homework, maybe you should do yours. Don

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#174

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:59 am

trulyenlightened wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Welcome to "half assed" Sunday school religion 101 !! LOL !
At least now we get where you are getting your flawed understanding of Christianity.
As usual, more condescending, ad hom, groundless inferences. I certainly don't hear any proof or explanation behind your silly comments. Why is my account of, "The Fall" flawed? Why is my understanding of Christianity flawed? Don't worry, I don't expect any answers to my concerns. It's always easier to be intellectually dishonest, and simply cast aspersions without backing them up. I do my homework, maybe you should do yours. Don
Don, the issue is that you post as if you have authority, as if you have this 100% understanding of Christianity and yet, every post shows that it is, at best, superficial.
And now you want a lesson on Christian Theology 101 ?
Dude...
You are arrogant, your self given name says it all.
You are argumentative.
You have shown that you are NOT willing to learn or even be open to the views of others.
Why should any of us help you when you have demonstrated that you don't really want it and think that we are all beneath you?
As for homework, some of us here have actual degrees in theology and more.

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#175

Post by trulyenlightened » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:21 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:People do horrific things in the name of religion.
People do horrific things in the name of science.
People do horrific things in the name of tribalism.
People do horrific things when they believe that good is subjective.
People do horrific things when they believe good is objective.

The pattern, you see, is that PEOPLE do horrific things.
The difference is that with Christianity, horrific things done in it's name are done IN SPITE of Christ not because of Him.
The difference is that in Christianity the measure and reason why those acts are horrific are clear.
The difference is that Christianity addresses WHY people do those things AND WHY they are WRONG.

So...

The quote should not be " Science flies people to the moon and religion flies people into buildings" which is an ignorant statement to be sure, it should be:
People can take ANYTHING and from that, do horrific things.
You tried to portray science as being evil with your link. This type of biased propaganda went out with the Nazi's. Did you also post sites that presented the benefits derived from science? No! Did you mention the new discoveries made by science? No! What about its contributions to a better understanding of our world? No! Just more self-serving one-dimensional thinking. I have no idea what, "People can take ANYTHING and from that, do horrific things", has to do with "Science flies people to the moon and religion flies people into buildings".

My point was that there are examples of people abusing Religion. Just as there are examples of people abusing Science. Your silly attempt to rationalize a difference between what is done in the name of Science, and what is done in the name of Religion, is also irrational and irrelevant. All that matters is what people believe in their mind, what their actions are in the name of. The KKK is a very Christian(also racist) organization. They don't seem to have a problem with doing horrific things to their fellow man. Where was the churches telling them about those differences you mentioned? Nowhere to be seen! Where was the church explaining to the Nazi's those differences you mentioned? Nowhere! There are aspects of the Koran that teaches peace, tolerance and forgiveness. Where were the Religious leaders teaching the terrorist about those difference you mentioned? Nowhere, except spinning the same stories and excuses that you do. The church seems just as impotent as as a God that stands by and allows these horrific atrocities to occur in the first place.

Good can only be subjective, and does not require belief. That would be redundant(belief is also subjective)! Look, if this attempt to "water down" or "poison the well", is the best that you can offer, then I suggest that you go back to Blah, Blah, Blah. At least it would be more intellectually honest. Don

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#176

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:24 pm

So, by me stating and showing that people are the issue and NOT science or religion, what I was doing was "rationalizing" a difference between what is done in the name of science compared to religion?

Wow...I think we have our answer guys.

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#177

Post by trulyenlightened » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:03 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
trulyenlightened wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Welcome to "half assed" Sunday school religion 101 !! LOL !
At least now we get where you are getting your flawed understanding of Christianity.
As usual, more condescending, ad hom, groundless inferences. I certainly don't hear any proof or explanation behind your silly comments. Why is my account of, "The Fall" flawed? Why is my understanding of Christianity flawed? Don't worry, I don't expect any answers to my concerns. It's always easier to be intellectually dishonest, and simply cast aspersions without backing them up. I do my homework, maybe you should do yours. Don
Don, the issue is that you post as if you have authority, as if you have this 100% understanding of Christianity and yet, every post shows that it is, at best, superficial.
And now you want a lesson on Christian Theology 101 ?
Dude...
You are arrogant, your self given name says it all.
You are argumentative.
You have shown that you are NOT willing to learn or even be open to the views of others.
Why should any of us help you when you have demonstrated that you don't really want it and think that we are all beneath you?
As for homework, some of us here have actual degrees in theology and more.
Paul, I don't need to have a 100% understanding of Christianity, to be able to read english. If I am wrong in my interpretation of Christianity or Scripture, then I feel that I am at the right place. So you can either point them out or make excuses why you won't. It seems you have chosen the latter. Your psych evaluation of me is irrelevant, and just another excuse to avoid any rational dialog. If I change my tag, and humbled myself, how will that change the merits of my argument? I don't think that any life form is beneath me, and I have nothing but respect for the differences within all people. I am no better a human being than the lowest drug addict lying in the gutter. I'm afraid that you have misjudged me. I am simply different and unique to anyone else.

I said that on this thread I will always be honest, and specific. If you make any remarks or comments on my thread, then be prepared to back them up. If you are only here to make insulting remarks and groundless assertions, then please there are a thousand other threads for you to choose from. Finally, what is your definition of, "open to the views of others"? Does that work both ways? Since you still haven't addressed any of my concerns, or corrected any of my comments, I assume that you have nothing to say. Your academic accreditations are irrelevant, it is only the comments you make that defines your level of understanding. That is all that is relevant to me. Don

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#178

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:23 pm

Your academic accreditations are irrelevant,
One imagines the response if that comment was directed to a person with a masters degree in biology discussing evolution...

Ah the sheer bias of it all...and he wonders why we take what he says with a grain of salt.

Don, you have NOT demonstrated a desire, a will, to actually learn our views since, quite obviously, you are truly enlightened and we are mere mortals who's education and experiences are, and I quote, irrelevant.

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#179

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:26 pm

Paul, I don't need to have a 100% understanding of Christianity, to be able to read english.
By the very same logic, our friend Abel, the proponent of the gap theory can say this:
I don't need to have a 100% understanding of evolution, to be able to read english
.

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#180

Post by Philip » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:48 pm

Don, whether you realize it or not, your assertions about Christian teachings and understandings are woefully inadequate, at best. If you truly want to know of things you ask, we can point you in the right directions to study them. First place, you can't credibly cherrypick your understandings and isolate passages that are fleshed out in other places in Scripture. That's one thing. But I don't believe you're here to understand, but to accuse. You've repeatedly said that science cannot refute the existence of God - but then you copiously write page after page and assert that it can and does refute it. And then you go on about a process (evolution) that would have begun 10 billion years after the universe began, to say it refutes the Bible - which explains not one thing about the lack of necessity for God. Of course, the very same evidences can easily be explained by a SuperIntelligence Designer God that has all coding and design capabilities to individually create species and their optimum parameters. You've admitted your bias and that you are closed off to searching for God - unless it only comes through scientific evidences - and yet you admit that science cannot prove or disprove God. So which is it?

But now you've wandered into theology - which those of us here have spent decades researching, debating and studying the theology and meanings of the Bible - so, now you truly have moved into an often-complex topic in which you are severely limited in understandings of. So, if you truly want to know the answers to things, don't just machinegun a big list of accusational-like assertions at us - stick to a key topic at a time. God does not think like a man - we're told that His thoughts, understandings and abilities are far beyond those of any mortal's - which one should expect of a God as described in the Bible. As "if" THAT God exists, then what is possible has no limits. Which also means that you can't expect to rationally understand everything you find in the Bible. Which is not to say God acts irrationally, or that He doesn't love mankind, but it is to say we can't always perfectly understand all He's done or why. But Scripture holds together - one isolating verses and literalisms (where it's not obviously literal) will end up with distortions and false understandings. And the principals of Biblical interpretation are found across and derived from Scripture. Immediate context, nuances, and language-use comparisons are often extremely important. Early Hebrew vs. later Hebrew, vs. Greek, Aramaic, and then English translations - these are all important to understanding - which is why Biblical scholarship provides substantial illuminations. And as much as I know now and have learned from Biblical scholars, I've come to realize the level of training, time and study it would take for me to know half of what some Bible scholars can yet teach me. But the half-baked crap you're gonna find universally recirculated on atheist websites - we've seen it all - with each false assertion being very obvious to those of us here who are Scripturally knowledgeable!

But if you dismiss all things unless only scientifically understood, it's hard to understand why you want to extend your arguments and assertions per Scripture, as clearly, you're going to reject much of it - because, with your superficial knowledge of it, it doesn't seem rational to you. But that's not your only handicap - as what is rational to a man, compared to an all-knowing Being - it's like taking the mind of earth's greatest thinker and comparing it to the mind of a slug. One should EXPECT God to seem very different from how we think - often mysterious, sometimes baffling, etc.

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