The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#151

Post by Philip » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:34 am

Neo: Remember, if molecules to man evolution is true then creating Adam is unnecessary. But it is a different case when it comes to Christ, because there is no other way Christ could be born except a miracle.
Seems one huge error Neo makes is that he cherrypicks what he considers a miracle, and what he does not - mostly to defend against Scriptural teachings he denies, or that he thinks contradict a natural reality he perfectly understands. WHATEVER God created in the physical realm – whether it came about by evolution or not – requires what only God can do. Now, evolution would have been a “miracle” of God spread out over much time. But most people consider a miracle some instantaneous interruption over how God created things to normally work, along with all of their potential and parameters. But, for God, it matters not which way He does something – instantly, or over a long period, as NONE of what is debated per outcomes in the physical realm would be possible without God first having created them, and without providing precisely for their potential and their parameters. I call ALL such things, the miraculousness of God operating in a physical space He created – with none of it possible without what He's made possible. And God cannot make a thing He doesn't perfectly know of all outcomes of. So the debate over which part of what God has made possible is a completely silly debate.

Adam could not have been some random outcome that God did not plan. Because God PERFECTLY knows ALL things, past, present and future. ANYTHING that would or has become a reality, He has ALWAYS perfectly known about it. And with Adam, even if He was created via evolution, God perfectly knew of His existence, HOW He would be created, WHEN, all his life events, etc. He knew this also of all humans that would ever come to live. He also always foreknew that He would come in the form of Jesus to save them, and that they would need saving. This idea that Adam was this random, unplanned creature, or that his existence was not guaranteed, or that God needed to “micromanage” the creation – so absurd. The fact of ANY and ALL potential in initial and subsequent things and processes that would one day develop into whatever outcomes – God always knew about them. And if He didn't want them to develop precisely as they did, then He either wouldn't have created their potential the way He did, or He wouldn't have created them at all.

But make no mistake, HOW God created things, their potential, their sequences, their foreknown outcomes, were ALL perfectly under His control – call that micromanaging, unnecessary, etc. - doesn't matter. An all-powerful, all-knowing God could not have EVER not known of ANYTHING that would eventually become a reality. And if that reality involved His future interactions with humanity, He would have always known about them. Adam was always a certainty with God, as was the fact that Jesus came to die for humanity. The all-knowingness of God totally refutes Neo's assertions. And, of course, Jesus endorses the entirety of the Old Testament as being true, as God's word. Does He not believe that? We're told Jesus repeatedly did miracles to prove Who He was - does Neo believe those? I just don't see why he's hung up over what he considers miracles of God, and what He does not - or what He considers micromanaging, and what should just be considered however God wanted to operate in time - whether instantly or over immense periods - all the same to God, without Whom NO aspect of the physical would ever have been possible, or have had ANY potential.

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#152

Post by neo-x » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:00 pm

RickD wrote:
neo-x wrote:
RickD wrote:
Neo wrote:
No. Because I don't see it that way you see it. Remember, if molecules to man evolution is true then creating Adam is unnecessary. But it is a different case when it comes to Christ, because there is no other way Christ could be born except a miracle.
That seems to be the same argument that YECs use when they say billions of years is unnecessary.
With a key difference. I am saying if evolution happened creating a special Adam is unnecessary. Yec's say that evolution didn't happen at all.
I'm making the comparison because both you and some YECs claim something as unnecessary because you're seeing it from your pov.


Unnecessary to whom? What if God wanted to create a special lineage from which the savior would come?

A special people set apart from the rest of humanity. Even if evolution were true, how else would God start this lineage, besides creating its "founder" anew?

Neo,

Is there any possibility whatsoever, in your mind, that what you see in DNA as evidence of a common ancestor, could be a creator using common building block (DNA) for life? Any chance at all that you're wrong?
It's is not a question of possibility, Rick. Of course, anyone could be wrong. And of course, God could create everything with the same building blocks. The question is, did he?
Paul's assessment of my position is correct. If evolution happened then there isn't any need for a special creation. To me, the evidence of evolution and the reasoning behind my argument just don't add up to what you are saying. Not to mention I think this grossly open the scriptures to literally have no meaning as one would have to keep updating the interpretation to match the Bible.

I think in this case ToE is selectively used in parts (micro vs macro etc.) to fit the Bible or what you say God making everything from the same building blocks. The only difference is you add purpose and intelligent design to it because you add God as an active creator. Evolution doesn't have either of these traits however it still gets the same results. So then your position becomes different only because it doesn't want to be identified with what Evolution actually means and entails. And that I think is the wrong reason to accept it and hence I am not convinced of it. I also think it pleads exception rather than being a rule.

To say that God used the same material to make everything is unfalsifiable, the same way I can claim that there is an invisible unicorn in my yard that no device on earth can detect. You can say that it isn't true but there is no way to prove it wrong, except by applying common sense that such things don't exist or happen. Something that is unfalsifiable is also not science.

Now I can appreciate the idea the God made everything from the same material. I can understand what this represents but it's neither science nor a theory. It is a belief and as far as that is concerned, I'm cool with it. Good for you. I just am not convinced of it.

That being said, I am open to anything which the evidence leads to, no strings attached; even if it means totally reversing my current position.
A special people set apart from the rest of humanity. Even if evolution were true, how else would God start this lineage, besides creating its "founder" anew?
Why new?
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. Mat 3:9

God can do that Rick, to make us anew despite us being ugly in sin. So then why is it that hard for God to use a human from molecules to man evolution? If anything your statement above kind of restricts God that he can't do it in any other way except making a new human? Although I am sure you didn't mean it like that. But I am not sure where you'd get scriptural support for that. Please share if you have something on your mind.

Also, I have a question for you:
When you say evolution happened and then God also made a new human, then you have a strange thing going on. You claim that God made everything from the same material. Therefore, I ask if the material is the same among humans whey need a new human? The material will be exactly the same, wouldn't it? The only difference being God's "breath of life" to distinguish it but then if that is the only differentiator then making a new Adam is pointless because God could have easily just breathed it in on an evolved man and it should have worked fine. You see we are our genetics.

So, to reiterate if God made everything with the same material, and specifically, if all humans were made of the same material, then the only reason to really distinguish a new human or Adam, would be to use a different material, otherwise what is the difference?
Last edited by neo-x on Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#153

Post by neo-x » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:01 pm

Philip wrote:
Neo: Remember, if molecules to man evolution is true then creating Adam is unnecessary. But it is a different case when it comes to Christ, because there is no other way Christ could be born except a miracle.
Seems one huge error Neo makes is that he cherrypicks what he considers a miracle, and what he does not - mostly to defend against Scriptural teachings he denies, or that he thinks contradict a natural reality he perfectly understands. WHATEVER God created in the physical realm – whether it came about by evolution or not – requires what only God can do. Now, evolution would have been a “miracle” of God spread out over much time. But most people consider a miracle some instantaneous interruption over how God created things to normally work, along with all of their potential and parameters. But, for God, it matters not which way He does something – instantly, or over a long period, as NONE of what is debated per outcomes in the physical realm would be possible without God first having created them, and without providing precisely for their potential and their parameters. I call ALL such things, the miraculousness of God operating in a physical space He created – with none of it possible without what He's made possible. And God cannot make a thing He doesn't perfectly know of all outcomes of. So the debate over which part of what God has made possible is a completely silly debate.

Adam could not have been some random outcome that God did not plan. Because God PERFECTLY knows ALL things, past, present and future. ANYTHING that would or has become a reality, He has ALWAYS perfectly known about it. And with Adam, even if He was created via evolution, God perfectly knew of His existence, HOW He would be created, WHEN, all his life events, etc. He knew this also of all humans that would ever come to live. He also always foreknew that He would come in the form of Jesus to save them, and that they would need saving. This idea that Adam was this random, unplanned creature, or that his existence was not guaranteed, or that God needed to “micromanage” the creation – so absurd. The fact of ANY and ALL potential in initial and subsequent things and processes that would one day develop into whatever outcomes – God always knew about them. And if He didn't want them to develop precisely as they did, then He either wouldn't have created their potential the way He did, or He wouldn't have created them at all.

But make no mistake, HOW God created things, their potential, their sequences, their foreknown outcomes, were ALL perfectly under His control – call that micromanaging, unnecessary, etc. - doesn't matter. An all-powerful, all-knowing God could not have EVER not known of ANYTHING that would eventually become a reality. And if that reality involved His future interactions with humanity, He would have always known about them. Adam was always a certainty with God, as was the fact that Jesus came to die for humanity. The all-knowingness of God totally refutes Neo's assertions. And, of course, Jesus endorses the entirety of the Old Testament as being true, as God's word. Does He not believe that? We're told Jesus repeatedly did miracles to prove Who He was - does Neo believe those? I just don't see why he's hung up over what he considers miracles of God, and what He does not - or what He considers micromanaging, and what should just be considered however God wanted to operate in time - whether instantly or over immense periods - all the same to God, without Whom NO aspect of the physical would ever have been possible, or have had ANY potential.
I don't think you understand what I said. But at this point, I seem to enjoy your commentary on me, in third person, so carry on.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

Philip
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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#154

Post by Philip » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:17 pm

Neo, if I've misunderstood, I apologize. But I'm just assessing your recent statements with those you've also repeatedly said in the past.

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#155

Post by trulyenlightened » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:34 am

The formal scientific definition of the ToE is quite different from the everyday meaning of the words. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature, that is supported by a vast body of evidence. Many scientific theories are so well-established that no new evidence is likely to refute or change them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun(Heliocentric Theory), or that living things are not made of cells(Cell Theory), or that matter is not composed of atoms(Atomic Theory), or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the Theory of Plate Tectonics). There is no new evidence to disprove that space and time is curved, and that matter and energy are merged(Theory of General Relativity). Or, that can disapprove how the Quantum Theory has ripped the entire fabric of classical physics to shreds, by demolishing the ordinary notions of the nature of reality, including the entire philosophies of cause and effect. Like these other foundational scientific theories, the ToE is supported by so many observations and confirming experiments, that scientists are confident that the basic components of the theory will not be overturned by any new evidence(over 150 years). However, like all scientific Theories, the ToE is subject to continuing refinement, as new science and new technology emerge. Suffice to say, the evidence supporting the ToE is beyond any reasonable or logical doubt.

I won't bother disproving the baseless, and unscientific claims made by Creationist and other anti-evolutionist. You can look for yourself and make up your own minds, https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... eationist/ . I will finish my interpretation of speciation at a later time, for anyone who is interested. Don

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#156

Post by Nils » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:18 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
For TrulyE. Here is that debate I told you about earlier between Hugh Ross(Theist) and Victor Stinger(Atheist) concerning science that you might find interesting.It is about two hours long so make sure you have enough time to watch it.Just see what you think about it because I think Hugh Ross won this debate but you can decide for yourself.
Hugh Ross(Theist) vs Victor Stinger(Atheist) concerning science.
https://youtu.be/Bzo1y95fs7g
ACB,
I looked at the Ross v Stinger debate and have some comments.

The figures he showed about the probabilities for life on other planets seemed very low. If they were correct and everyone accepted them nobody would search for interstellar life. But there are lots of persons doing that, devoting their lives to that mission. My simple point is that the figures apparently are contested.

More interesting is his statement that there are writings in the Bible that indicate modern cosmology and that's a proof that God inspired the authors of the Bible. According to Ross that shows that God put knowledge into the Bible, knowledge that could not be known at the time the Bible was written.

If I remember correctly, the examples were that the Universe isn't eternal, is expanding, and is cooling. Now, it is easy to find evidence for lot of different ideas in the Bible. It is comprehensive. Therefore it is not enough to be able to point at some verses that seem to support a statement. As a proof it should be required that most (or at least many) person during the Middle Ages embraced these ideas. That the Universe was created was certainly part of the worldview, but the other two properties I have never heard that they were embraced commonly. On the contrary, it was dogmatically claimed that the heaven was static and the fixed starts really were fixed. Giovanni Bruno was burnt 1600 partly because he insisted that they were not static.

Ross seems to advocate that the Bible showed that the Universe is expanding and cooling even if nobody had noticed that. To me it sounds ridiculous.

Stinger asks the question: Is there anything in the Bible that people didn't know at the time the Bible was written? Assuming that we talk about science as for example cosmology, biology, and medicine. As far as I can see the answer is definitely No.

Any comment?

Nils

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#157

Post by trulyenlightened » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:04 am

If you are going to comment of the late Professor S-T-E-N-G-E-R(Victor), at least spell his name correctly. He held a Professorship in Physics, Astronomy and Philosophy. He was a Particle Physicist who contributed to the groundbreaking work on gamma rays, quarks and gluons. His last project was working on an underground experiment, that proved that neutrinos have mass. He was considered in the same ranks as Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett, and Harris, thus the "fifth horseman" of the New Atheists. He was best known for his remark that, "Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings". Nils , I agree with everything but your conclusion. Maybe I miss something from your train of logic. "Stinger asks the question: Is there anything in the Bible that people didn't know at the time the Bible was written?" Are you saying that at the time the Bible was written, that people know the same that we know today about medicine, cosmology, and biology? How could they know anything before those things even existed, let alone understood them? Are you suggesting that if someone from Biblical times were somehow transported into our time, that they would not be surprised by what they see? Again, maybe I misunderstand what you were trying to say. Don

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#158

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:10 am

think that there are very few of us that could resist the temptation of immortality and acquiring all knowledge, just by eating a piece of fruit. So I think forgiveness was certainly in order, from a benevolent God. Why tempt your own creation in the first place? Why was this temptation in anyway necessary for a God? Especially since a God would know its outcome in the first place. In either case why should I suffer for the sins of the Father? If my father was a racist and a bigot, should I be labeled the same, or carry the guilt? Of course not! There may have been many local floods, but there is certainly no evidence to support a global flood. I also doubt the possibility of creating a population of 8 Billion people, populating all corners of the earth, in only a few thousand years. Especially when life span, disease, food, death, environment, clean water, war, stillborn, etc., are factored into the equation.
Why would you think that God tempted them, or anyone?
They were warned and yes, God knew they would disobey ( as any all-knowing entity would).
Of course God forgave them, if He hadn't not only would they have been killed instantly but He wouldn't have watched over them and provided for them.
God gave them what they wanted, so that they could learn what they needed.
I don't blame you for not understanding the story of the fall since you don't understand God AND even many believers don't understand that fall either.
The inherited "sin" from Adam was mortality, was that each individual person would now be responsible for their own actions and beliefs.
But this is another topic...

In regards to evolution and reconciling it with Genesis not only is reconciliation not needed in my view, since Genesis is NOT about the origins of Man in THAT way, it's not even relevant.

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#159

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:13 am

He was best known for his remark that, "Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings".
Probably one of the dumbest things have read.

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#160

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:17 am


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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#161

Post by RickD » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:53 am

Evil is so subjective.
1 Corinthians 1:9
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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#162

Post by trulyenlightened » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:42 am

RickD wrote:
Evil is so subjective.
And Pathos, without Logos, is intellectually dishonest. I don't think you'd like me to list the evils done by all cultures, in the name of Theism or Deism? But you are correct evil IS subjective, but pain and suffering is both. This includes the suffering of humans, plant and animal life, and even our environment. By the way, these practices are still going on today by governments. It is amazing just how persuasive money can be. Don

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#163

Post by trulyenlightened » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:43 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
He was best known for his remark that, "Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings".
Probably one of the dumbest things have read.
I seriously doubt that! Don

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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#164

Post by RickD » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:57 am

trulyenlightened wrote:
RickD wrote:
Evil is so subjective.
And Pathos, without Logos, is intellectually dishonest. I don't think you'd like me to list the evils done by all cultures, in the name of Theism or Deism? But you are correct evil IS subjective, but pain and suffering is both. This includes the suffering of humans, plant and animal life, and even our environment. By the way, these practices are still going on today by governments. It is amazing just how persuasive money can be. Don
Unless truth is objective, all I'm reading in your post is, "blah blah blah blah I like chocolate ice cream blah blah blah."
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Re: The Truth Surrounding the Theory of Evolution and its Rationale

#165

Post by RickD » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:57 am

trulyenlightened wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
He was best known for his remark that, "Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings".
Probably one of the dumbest things have read.
I seriously doubt that! Don
It is pretty stupid. And ignorant.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
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