Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#211

Post by DBowling » Fri May 12, 2017 6:06 am

hughfarey wrote: Maybe the reason there is no mention of the Shroud in the Gospels is that the image did not miraculously appear until much later
Here's an interesting passage from John 20:3-8
3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. 8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.
In this passage, the Apostle John doesn't immediately enter the tomb when he reaches it. From outside the tomb he looks in and sees Jesus burial cloths.
When Peter reaches the tomb he immediately enters it and after Peter enters the tomb then John decides to go in as well. It is only after John enters the tomb that the narrative says "He saw and believed"
Evidently there was something that John saw only after entering the tomb that was not visible to him when he saw the burial cloths from outside the tomb.

What did John see that caused him to believe before he actually saw the risen Jesus?
The only thing that the text mentions is Jesus burial cloths.
The implication of the text is that John saw something after entering the tomb, that was not apparent to him when he saw the empty burial cloths from outside the tomb.

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#212

Post by Philip » Fri May 12, 2017 6:09 am

That was the moment when John TOTALLY got it!

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#213

Post by Kurieuo » Fri May 12, 2017 7:20 am

hughfarey wrote: 1.a) A miraculist explanation.
That is indeed is what one possible explanation one can assume, but so? There's nothing unscientific about replicating via means of radiation and the like. If it can't be done, barking up the wrong tree, then there's nothing to fear with science attempting testing for such as some Italian scientists did a couple years ago. It's just important I think scientifically that everything be on the table when it comes to just trying to replicate the shroud.

Stuff methodological naturalism and the underpinning philosphy guising itself as science with the boundaries it places on what is/isn't worthwhile testing. It's still within the realm of science to test even if people might only posit a miraculous accounting as the most reasonable explanation. Think Georges Lemaître here, because he put together that the universe is expanding, which then begs for a beginning as we look backward with the universe contract, contract, contracting -- but, it doesn't mean he was wrong in his science despite some obvious philosophical "miraculous" conclusions some might draw (which is often flatly rejected any how).

Re: on topic of "miracles", Jesus' bodily resurrection was just that. Yet, simply because our lack of knowledge in knowing how God moved things on say the quantum level, not knowing how God worked an apparent "miracle" isn't really the same thing as "magic". Miracle != magic, but miracles can make full logical sense provided we have greater knowledge akin to God's.

Yet. dead people don't rise some might claim. Well, obviously that's the norm we've become familiar with. But, we as Christians don't believe Jesus was a man, but rather God incarnate. Further, we believe all will be resurrected in the end. No doubt with Christ's resurrection God was working according to laws we know little about. Unless you wish to eject such from your beliefs, then theologically as a Christian I'd expect not such a blanket rejection of the resurrection event.

As per the early Christian creed Paul touches upon in 1 Cor. 15:3-4:
  • "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve."
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#214

Post by DBowling » Fri May 12, 2017 9:55 am

Kurieuo wrote: Re: on topic of "miracles", Jesus' bodily resurrection was just that. Yet, simply because our lack of knowledge in knowing how God moved things on say the quantum level, not knowing how God worked an apparent "miracle" isn't really the same thing as "magic". Miracle != magic, but miracles can make full logical sense provided we have greater knowledge akin to God's.
Let me point out a distinction that I personally make regarding the image on the Shroud and the 'supernatural'.

I personally do not believe that the image was placed on the Shroud via a 'supernatural' process.
I am inclined to speculate (because that is all I can do) that the image was placed on the Shroud via 'natural' processes due to its immediate proximity to a 'supernatural' event (ie the Resurrection of Jesus).

For me the 'miracle' is not the image being placed on the Shroud.
For me the 'miracle' is the Resurrection of Jesus which somehow resulted in the image being placed on the Shroud.

Even though it is an unprovable distinction, I do think it is a significant distinction.
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PaulSacramento (Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:12 am)

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#215

Post by Mallz » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:36 am

Atomic resolution studies detect new biologic evidences on the Turin Shroud:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... ne.0180487

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#216

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:14 am

Mallz wrote:Atomic resolution studies detect new biologic evidences on the Turin Shroud:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... ne.0180487

from the article:
Conclusions

On the basis of the experimental evidences of our atomic resolution TEM studies, the man wrapped in the TS suffered a strong polytrauma. We studied a fiber of the TS by atomic resolution TEM experiments and WAXS. This is the first time that the TS is studied at this resolution and this range of view produced a series of experimental results, which thanks to recent studies on ancient dye painting, ferritin, creatinine and human pathology can be connected and understood in relationship with a macroscopic scenario in which the TS was committed [41,42,43]. In fact, the fiber was soaked with a blood serum typical of a human organism that suffered a strong trauma, as HRTEM evidenced that the TS is covered by well-dispersed 30nm-100nm creatinine nanoparticles bounded with internal 2nm-6nm ferrihydrate structures. The bond between the iron cores of ferritin and creatinine on large scale occurs in a body after a strong polytrauma [41,42,43]. This result cannot be impressed on the TS by using ancient dye pigments, as they have bigger sizes and tend to aggregate, and it is highly unlikely that the eventual ancient artist would have painted a fake by using the hematic serum of someone after a heavy polytrauma. Nevertheless, the presence of red pigments, detected in some studies [13,17] seems to indicate a human intervention on the TS. This, in turn, has generated some difficulties for the modern investigations and stimulated the scientific debate about the actual origin of the TS. The analyses discussed in literature so far, have been realized without the necessary spatial resolution to distinguish what is coming from the nanoscale and cannot filter eventual artifacts. This has been the target of our work and the obtained results are not compatible with a painting but evidenced the presence of nanoparticles of pathologic blood serum related to the presence of creatinine bound with ferrihydrate, which are typical of an organism that suffered a strong polytrauma, like torture. Indeed, unexpectedly, at the nanoscale it is encoded a scenario of great suffering recorded on the nanoparticles attached to the linen fibers. Furthermore, here the experiments point how the nanoscale enable to study unspoiled properties of the Turin Shroud suggesting an effective experimental strategy for further studies.

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#217

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:13 pm

I recently found out why it has been so hard for skeptics to try to duplicate the image on the shroud.Those who are skeptical about the image being produced by God and believe some person in the 14th century made it,etc and actually have tried to duplicate the image on the shroud to try to prove it could be made by man but have all failed.

The reason why it is so hard for skeptics to try to show how the shroud could have been made by man and not God is the blood stains on the shroud.There are over 400 scourge wounds all over the body both on the front and back,on the legs also.But also the blood stains at the wrists and ankles where they nailed this person to the cross,plus the blood stains and wounds on the head where the crown of thorns was,plus the wound in the side that matches the kind of spear Roman soldiers used.Also the scouge wounds all over the body match up perfectly with a Roman flagram that Roman soldiers used to scourge/flog criminals with.

These are real blood stains on the shroud or burial linen over 400 of them so we know this person was severely beaten with Roman Flagrams.But these blood stains were on the burial linen before the image was produced.As a matter of fact the blood actually protected the burial linen from whatever produced the image on the shroud because underneath the blood is bleached white linen.

Now there is a whole sermon a preacher could preach about the blood of Jesus and how it washes us white as snow,but I digress.But these blood stains all over the burial linen of the shroud over 400 of them is the problem skeptics have trying to replicate and show how man could have produced the image.

You see if you put these blood stains over 400 of them on burial linen and then cover over the blood you no longer can see the blood stains because you just cover over it or they do not have blood stains on them. Any way this is one reason why the skeptics cannot duplicate the image on the shroud. I mean how can you produce the scourge wounds all over the body, that match perfectly with the kind of Roman Flagrams Roman Soldiers used to sourge criminals with,but put blood stains on burial linen and not mess them up or cover the blood up where it cannot be seen as you try to show how a man could have made it?It cannot be done. They must be able to put these blood stains on the burial linen and then produce an image without covering up the blood stains. We know the blood stains were on the burial linen before the image was produced.

This lines up with Jesus dying then the body is wrapped in the burial linen,then the body laid in the tomb,which produced the bood stains on the burial linen,then he rose from the dead three days later and the image was produced and everywhere there is a blood stain over 400 of them underneath it is bleached white burial linen.

So again,the blood actually protected the burial linen from the energy source that produced the image we see in the shroud of a crucified man when a certian kind of light is shined on the shroud.
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bippy123 (Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:13 am)
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#218

Post by Philip » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:31 am

Where oh where is Bippy, our resident Shroud guru? I pray he is well and safe out there.

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#219

Post by bippy123 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:00 am

Philip wrote:Where oh where is Bippy, our resident Shroud guru? I pray he is well and safe out there.
Hey Philip, hey everyone .
I'm doing ok , just been logging massive hours on Uber and lyft and my other party time job keeps me very busy . My brother also is still draining on my time and expenses but we have started getting him into the SSI system but it will take about 6 months to a year to get him approved . I am about to dip my hand into the crypto currency investment jar which is exploding like crazy .It's been almost 2 years in my car and I'm slowly saving . If it wasn't for my brother I'd have been in a place by now . Met an amazing lady who I call Mom 2.0 who has given me the courage to visit my mom regularly .

Side note , I was pestering a large group of atheists on twitter and had them stressed out on the William lane Craig criterion of embarressment argument before they got together and had me banned for life from twitter . In other words I'm still being a very bad boy :mrgreen:

I'm ok guys , living like this toughened me up .
Special thanks to my bro drds for alerting me to your post Philip
God bless you and everyone here :)
Bippy123
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abelcainsbrother (Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:17 am)

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#220

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:24 am

bippy123 wrote:
Philip wrote:Where oh where is Bippy, our resident Shroud guru? I pray he is well and safe out there.
Hey Philip, hey everyone .
I'm doing ok , just been logging massive hours on Uber and lyft and my other party time job keeps me very busy . My brother also is still draining on my time and expenses but we have started getting him into the SSI system but it will take about 6 months to a year to get him approved . I am about to dip my hand into the crypto currency investment jar which is exploding like crazy .It's been almost 2 years in my car and I'm slowly saving . If it wasn't for my brother I'd have been in a place by now . Met an amazing lady who I call Mom 2.0 who has given me the courage to visit my mom regularly .

Side note , I was pestering a large group of atheists on twitter and had them stressed out on the William lane Craig criterion of embarressment argument before they got together and had me banned for life from twitter . In other words I'm still being a very bad boy :mrgreen:

I'm ok guys , living like this toughened me up .
Special thanks to my bro drds for alerting me to your post Philip
God bless you and everyone here :)
Bippy123

Glad to hear from you and it is good to know you're still battling atheists too,like me.
Bible O Really. For You.
https://youtu.be/DXbzpelhsqs
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#221

Post by Philip » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:45 am

B I P P Y !!!! A relief to hear from you, my friend. We have been praying for you around here - we've all been concerned as we'd not heard from you in quite a while. Knowing of your great trials to survive, seeing the other great trials of Hana, Annette, B.W., and others here, I've learned through the sufferings of all of you. And the amazing thing is, during the most difficult times, I've sensed God's provision and love for you, and can see how powerfully you've experienced it and your faith has grown. May 2018 see you all overcome, have peace, and prosper in God's great wisdom and love!

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#222

Post by bippy123 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:49 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
bippy123 wrote:
Philip wrote:Where oh where is Bippy, our resident Shroud guru? I pray he is well and safe out there.
Hey Philip, hey everyone .
I'm doing ok , just been logging massive hours on Uber and lyft and my other party time job keeps me very busy . My brother also is still draining on my time and expenses but we have started getting him into the SSI system but it will take about 6 months to a year to get him approved . I am about to dip my hand into the crypto currency investment jar which is exploding like crazy .It's been almost 2 years in my car and I'm slowly saving . If it wasn't for my brother I'd have been in a place by now . Met an amazing lady who I call Mom 2.0 who has given me the courage to visit my mom regularly .

Side note , I was pestering a large group of atheists on twitter and had them stressed out on the William lane Craig criterion of embarressment argument before they got together and had me banned for life from twitter . In other words I'm still being a very bad boy :mrgreen:

I'm ok guys , living like this toughened me up .
Special thanks to my bro drds for alerting me to your post Philip
God bless you and everyone here :)
Bippy123

Glad to hear from you and it is good to know you're still battling atheists too,like me.
Bible O Really. For You.
https://youtu.be/DXbzpelhsqs
Gotta battle them abel, any religion that tries to convince me that I'm an ultimately meaningless piece of meat I must battle against :)
Good to see your still on the battle field my friend
God bless you always
Bippy123

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#223

Post by bippy123 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:55 pm

Philip wrote:B I P P Y !!!! A relief to hear from you, my friend. We have been praying for you around here - we've all been concerned as we'd not heard from you in quite a while. Knowing of your great trials to survive, seeing the other great trials of Hana, Annette, B.W., and others here, I've learned through the sufferings of all of you. And the amazing thing is, during the most difficult times, I've sensed God's provision and love for you, and can see how powerfully you've experienced it and your faith has grown. May 2018 see you all overcome, have peace, and prosper in God's great wisdom and love!
Thanks Philip , I really needed those prayers . These are tough times but somehow by the grace of God I'm finding the strength to fight .
Sorry Philip that i missed your pm but I haven't been on here for a long time . I've been digging in and working long hours almost daily .
Right now I'm studying crypto currency intensely as I know they will probably experience a crash in a year or 2.
It's good to see all the awesome posts by you all . They brought me tears of joy.
God bless you all
Bippy
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Philip (Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:46 pm)

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#224

Post by Storyteller » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:51 pm

Love you bips y>:D<

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Re: Shroud of Turin - Summary of Evidence for its Authenticity

#225

Post by bippy123 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:56 pm

Storyteller wrote:Love you bips y>:D<
Love you to sis y>:D<

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