Ark encounter

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Kurieuo
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Re: Ark encounter

#61

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:26 pm

I'd place the flood between 40-50k ago before humanity spread out upon the face of all the earth. The world at that time was destroyed by a flood. (2 Peter 3:6)
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Ark encounter

#62

Post by Audie » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:39 pm

Philip wrote:Dear Audie, please be more clear with the highlighted portions of your posts - it makes it more difficult to discern who said what and when, and the responses. :)
True fsct

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Re: Ark encounter

#63

Post by hughfarey » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:51 pm

RickD wrote:Hugh, Why do you assume that there were other humans outside the flood area? Are you putting the noahic flood only a few thousand years ago?
At whatever date one cares to postulate the flood, there were humans in Africa. Presumably they all survived. The oldest known boat of any kind dates from about 10000BC, by which time there were people all over the world. The domestication of animals occurred not long before (for Noah to gather). If the 'biblical' flood happened at all, it was probably a minor occurrence of minimal significance about 6000BC, the folk memory of which led the authors of Genesis, who undoubtedly assumed it was a worldwide catastrophe, to use the story to illustrate the character of God. Attempts to claim that the Hebrew text can be literally interpreted as a local occurrence are not only major linguistic distortions, they are also profoundly theologically unsound.

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Re: Ark encounter

#64

Post by crochet1949 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:47 pm

Then why don't ya'll just throw out all of the Biblical events as 'stories' with some sort of moral import and move on with life.
I can't do That Because it's also throwing out the Miraculous birth, death and Miraculous bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. And that would Also throw out the Fact that there will be an eternal heaven and hell existing.

Now that I've 'spouted' a bit, I'll continue.

I Did look up the 'water canopy' thing. It's something that I'd heard many years ago and didn't bother to question it. There are some who Do hold it still and some who don't. The fact is that at one time -- pre-flood -- the earth was watered from underground / it had never rained before. So -- God got fed up with the constant violence of the people on this earth and said He would destroy mankind. The Only people who escaped with their lives were Noah and his family -- No one else was willing to listen and repent. The building process took 120 yrs which gave he and his family plenty of opportunity to explain what he was doing and why. People refused to listen and repent. And That is all God wants Now -- to Listen to His Word and repent.
And I don't see any reason that saying Land rather than Earth would make Any difference. And the rainfall kept up for 40 days and nights -- long enough to cause major flooding. Covering the mountains.

Also -- look at Genesis 8:4 "Then the ark rested in the seventh month, the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat. "And the waters deceased continually until the tenth month . In the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains were seen."
It's all very specific. How could a flood be Local and yet have flood waters over the mountain peaks. That means the water Spread -- it Didn't stay in a local area.
Destroying Mankind = Everybody. Everyone had been sinning -- just like Romans tells us -- All have sinned.

Another ark that is talked about in the Old Testament is in Exodus 25:8 "And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them. vs 9 "According to all that I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you shall make it. And That continues for a couple of chapters.
Not meaning to derail --just making a point. Through out the Old Testament there are lots of numbers / names / wars / names of Kings / Judges. Lots of History. The beginning of the Jewish race. History simply Can't be ignored. So to try to explain why the flood is simply a Story -- makes everything Else in the Old Testament 'just a story, too'. And we Know the Jewish race exists.

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Re: Ark encounter

#65

Post by crochet1949 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:26 pm

Don't tell me I stopped the conversation. Was just having a temporary temper tantrum.

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Re: Ark encounter

#66

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:18 pm

The water canopy theory came from a bad biblical interpretation that assumed everything has to do with the earth.But the truth is the water canopy is the crystal sea in heaven John saw in the book of Revelation.Revelation 4:6. But also here it is in Job too Job 37:10. God made all 3 heavens on the second day and he made this crystal sea in heaven that separates heaven where God is in heaven from us here on earth.

But bible interpreters assumed it only referred to the earth's atmosphere while overlooking that the bible speaks of three heavens and a crystal sea also.Many believe in Exodus 20:11 where it says sea it is not talking about the earth's sea but the crystal sea in heaven that is shimmering in heaven as it reflects the light of God back into heaven.God's light shimmers in heaven because of this crystal sea in heaven.This also explains the windows/gates of heaven also. So think heaven instead of earth when thinking of a water canopy.

Here is another place in the bible this crystal sea is mentioned by Apostle Paul 1st Corinthians 13:12 And based on this verse this shows on one side in heaven where God is it is bright and reflects like a mirror while on our side the side that separates us from God it is black or dark.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Ark encounter

#67

Post by Philip » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:53 am

Crochet: How could a flood be Local and yet have flood waters over the mountain peaks. That means the water Spread -- it Didn't stay in a local area.

Crochet, did you read through my links on this issue? Here's one: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... flood.html

If the flood was GLOBAL, then that begs questions about the Creation passage in Psalm 104, as it describes God beginning and creating the earth. It refers to how He had first established the water and had "covered it with the deep as with a garment," and that those first "waters stood above the mountains" and "at your rebuke they fled." The passage continues, stating that then "the mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them," as God established the land's geography. And then is says of those first waters, "You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth."

If the established boundaries of the early earth's waters were established, as as they would "not again cover the earth" - well, how would Noah's flood have done what Psalm 104 clearly indicates would "not again" occur?

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Re: Ark encounter

#68

Post by Audie » Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:32 am

Kurieuo wrote:I'd place the flood between 40-50k ago before humanity spread out upon the face of all the earth. The world at that time was destroyed by a flood. (2 Peter 3:6)

The geological / archaeological evidence being?

How might such a story have survived intact?

There is of course no evidence for / much contrary evidence for a world wide flood,
so beteeen the bible being ambiguous on the extent of a flood, and geology disproving it
as world wide, that is out, for those educated in the matter.

So..physical evidence for your 50 k ago flood?

Provenance for the story?

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Re: Ark encounter

#69

Post by Kurieuo » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:16 am

There are many flood stories Auds, that are quite mythical and similar to that of Noah as found in Genesis.
So there is actual corroborative evidence across many cultures of major flood event that affected humanity.
I'm sure you can use Google.

The fact there are these stories suggests something happened and is evidence against belief in absolutely zero happening. To believe is zero despite the stories seems like skeptical foolishness.

Since I believe it was the "world at that time" that was largely destroyed. Humanity therefore must have been gathered together, this is before they dispersed. Then from their cultures developed their own myths based upon on a true catastrophic flooding event that left a major impact upon humanity.

40-50k aligns with out of Africa migrations.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Ark encounter

#70

Post by Kurieuo » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:21 am

Also, geology doesn't disprove a world wide flood, only global. Specificity matters Auds.
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Re: Ark encounter

#71

Post by Audie » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:05 am

Kurieuo wrote:There are many flood stories Auds, that are quite mythical and similar to that of Noah as found in Genesis.
So there is actual corroborative evidence across many cultures of major flood event that affected humanity.
I'm sure you can use Google.

The fact there are these stories suggests something happened and is evidence against belief in absolutely zero happening. To believe is zero despite the stories seems like skeptical foolishness.

Since I believe it was the "world at that time" that was largely destroyed. Humanity therefore must have been gathered together, this is before they dispersed. Then from their cultures developed their own myths based upon on a true catastrophic flooding event that left a major impact upon humanity.

40-50k aligns with out of Africa migrations.

Since you believe it, only info that suggests support is allowed in.

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Re: Ark encounter

#72

Post by Audie » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:07 am

Kurieuo wrote:Also, geology doesn't disprove a world wide flood, only global. Specificity matters Auds.

Is it equivocation, or distinction without difference?
Be specific.

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Re: Ark encounter

#73

Post by hughfarey » Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:38 am

Kurieuo wrote:I'd place the flood between 40-50k ago before humanity spread out upon the face of all the earth. The world at that time was destroyed by a flood. (2 Peter 3:6)
Humanity had spread out over most of Africa before the little group that would eventually populate the other continents set off, well before the invention of boats or the domestication of animals.

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Re: Ark encounter

#74

Post by Audie » Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:46 pm

hughfarey wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:I'd place the flood between 40-50k ago before humanity spread out upon the face of all the earth. The world at that time was destroyed by a flood. (2 Peter 3:6)
Humanity had spread out over most of Africa before the little group that would eventually populate the other continents set off, well before the invention of boats or the domestication of animals.
People will seem so normal but when you say "flood"
they just go off the rails.

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Re: Ark encounter

#75

Post by Philip » Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:35 pm

hughfarey wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
I'd place the flood between 40-50k ago before humanity spread out upon the face of all the earth. The world at that time was destroyed by a flood. (2 Peter 3:6)
Humanity had spread out over most of Africa before the little group that would eventually populate the other continents set off, well before the invention of boats or the domestication of animals.
One thing is for sure - you either believe what Scripture says about Noah and the great Flood, or not. But you can believe it, and yet also legitimately disagree as to exactly WHEN that occurred, and/or to what EXTENT it did. But as for believing whether it actually true or not, Scripture, from the OT to the NT references it, and speaks of Noah and his experience as being historical. I don't believe only Scripture I can prove perfectly understand the nuances, dynamics or specifics. It's either God's word or not. And the Story of Noah and the great flood is one of the most epic stories of God dealing with and rescuing humanity (as well as of His wrath and of punishing it). You either believe it is true, or you don't believe Scripture. The rest, as to our correct understanding of the particulars and timing, shouldn't be much more than fun speculation. But I always get worried if people say they believe God and that Scripture is His word, and yet question whether so much of it is either factual or historical. Yep, there's metaphor, allegory, symbolism, poetry - all of that IS also found in Scripture. But as for key, pivotal stories being only symbolic - really, how do you know what is what? And if you can't know the answer to what is true/historical, and what is not, much of Scripture ceases to be personally relevant. I hope that's not the case here.

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