Ark encounter

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
crochet1949
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Re: Ark encounter

#166

Post by crochet1949 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:33 am

The inspiration of Scripture -- 2 Timothy 3:16 " All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
2 Peter 1:21 "For prophesy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

You're also talking about How the Bible was put together -- the apocrophal books -- those that were questioned as to authenticity -- those were taken out and , thus, we have the Non-Catholic versions of the Bible. The books didn't read like the other's did.

One of the books who's author was questioned was Hebrews -- but people were noticing the positive impact that book was making -- the doctrine -- and decided it should be included in the Canon of Scripture.

So -- I don't think we agree on what inspiration of Scripture means / is.

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Re: Ark encounter

#167

Post by hughfarey » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:40 am

Without analysing Jac's comments word for word - and there are a few issues with which I couldn't disagree more - I think he has identified the reason I speak as I do quite well. To a Catholic, the bible is not its own authority. The rock upon which Christianity is built, according to its founder "es Petrus". There are different ways of interpreting that - no doubt Philip can find me an actual stone with a basilica on it - but I do not think there is any doubt that it refers to people rather than texts.

There is a slighty snarky note to Jac's comment, in spite of his denial, in that "God reveals truth through the church, and part of that revelation came as the church wrote the Bible, and therefore the church gets to tell you what she meant when she authored it." Hardly, if I may say so. It is true that the bible upon which the various literalists found their claims was assembled by the Catholic Church from earlier texts, and to a certain extent the authors of the New Testament, under the leadership of Peter, were therefore Catholics, but the Septuagint, from which most of the Old Testament was taken, was distinctly pre-Christian. Furthermore, I get the feeling that Jac thinks Catholics simply pay into the club, which absolves them from the responsibility of thinking for themselves. This is to misunderstand the nature of the Church, which is not the Magisterium or the Curia or any particular group of theologians, but all the people who make it up. A baptised Catholic is not a passenger on a ship, he is a part of the ship, a part of what keeps it afloat, a part of what direction it is going in, and a part of the engine which powers it. It is true that he is only a small part, but then so is the Pope. The Catechism is not an imposition, it is the expression of two thousand years of democracy. That's what gives it its power.

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Re: Ark encounter

#168

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:24 am

hughfarey wrote:Good for you, Melanie.
While I am glad I intrigue you, I have to remind you that my " interesting idea of biblical interpretation" is not derived exclusively from personal study, but is also the fairly universal view of the main divisions of Christianity. Boringly conventional, in fact. Many on this site argue from their own personal study and belief, which is fine in its way, but we conventionalists are standing on the shoulders of giants like St Augustine of Hippo and St Thomas Aquinas, and arguing in concert with the leading theologians of today, which gives us the support that those who struggle on individually can only dream of.
The sheer arrogance...

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Re: Ark encounter

#169

Post by Philip » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:13 am

Jac: What you are facing, Phil, is the fact that hugh's Catholicism means that he believes his church first, foremost, and above all. For him, the Bible records a part of the revelation that God gave mankind; but most importantly, for him, the Bible was given through the church and therefore only the church has the right to interpret it.
Jac, what you are referring to, obviously, is the question of the true source of Scriptural authority. So, you must have missed it, where I historically and redundantly broke that down for Hugh with some excellent resources that examine the question. So, THAT is the context of my challenge to him. So, the dialogue seems rather pointless, as Hugh just resoundingly disagrees with what the source is. So, yes, we're ships operating off of different navigation tools/instructions. His problem is that while WE CAN authenticate that HIS asserted sources (the CC/Popes) cannot be, in any way, historically or otherwise documented or validated. His assertions all come down to, "Well, the Vatican, popes and the CC SAY so, and thus I believe their authority is valid." Great authentication right there, eh?

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Re: Ark encounter

#170

Post by hughfarey » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:05 pm

Philip wrote:You must have missed it, where I historically and redundantly broke that down for Hugh with some excellent resources that examine the question.
I can't say whether Jac missed it, but I certainly did. I have gone back several pages and cannot find any "excellent resources that examine the question". I suggested you look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church and gave you a link to it. Would you be so kind as to give me some of your excellent resources again, so that I may study them? I promise I will.
His problem is that while WE CAN authenticate that HIS asserted sources (the CC/Popes) cannot be, in any way, historically or otherwise documented or validated.
This doesn't make sense. would you care to rewrite it so that it does?
His assertions all come down to, "Well, the Vatican, popes and the CC SAY so, and thus I believe their authority is valid." Great authentication right there, eh?
Ha ha. Non-Catholics often say that, but of course they know it's not true. It's a rather feeble attempt to discredit Catholics' personal investigations and conclusions, and, of course, persuades nobody at all. Catholics do not accept the authority of the Church merely because it commands it, any more than they accept the authority of the bible merely because the bible commands it. The Church has to explain, has to lay out its evidence, has to establish its credentials, before its authority can mean anything. But to my mind, it has!

crochet1949
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Re: Ark encounter

#171

Post by crochet1949 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:26 pm

The RCC takes the role of being the One True Church Period. But there were people Inside the church who began to question the way the Church interpreted Scripture and Rebelled. The Protestant Reformation. And rightly so.
Not meaning to derail the thread.

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Re: Ark encounter

#172

Post by abelcainsbrother » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

crochet1949 wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
crochet1949 wrote:That which I'm suggesting regarding the terrain of the earth -- mountains for instance. Before the flood -- the mountains were only 15 cubits high. We all know that flood waters result in / can cause a great deal of damage as the waters rise and then recede. Genesis says that waters came up out of the deep and from the rain. So the earth was basically churned up -- everything was mixed around and resettled as the waters receded. So - we end up With features such as the Grand Canyon. Just saying that the world we have

Crochet,I too believe in a global flood in Noah's flood also however the scientific understanding you have as you try to explain what Noah's flood caused is not the proper way to give evidence for it.The truth is it is not easy to confirm a global flood happened using geology.I don't believe it can be proven 100% it happened,it is one of them biblical things we must just believe by faith mostly.

This does not mean there is no evidence,there is but it is different from the way you are trying to make a case for a global flood. Now there are those who believe in a local flood and they explain their case well.I think that Gap creationists make a much better case for a global flood than young earth creationists have.I'm not saying it proves it but it is a much better explanation for a global flood from a much more true scientific perspective,even if it does not prove it.If you would like to look into it I can give you some links that might help however it is a Gap creationist making a case for a global flood..I mean it might not change those minds who have accepted a local flood but atleast you might can learn how to make a better case for a global flood. I'm not trying to be offensive to you because I like you.I kinda see you as the Christian fire cracker on here,meant in a good way.
ACB -- your comments are appreciated. Share those links, please.
The Fountains of Noah's Flood and the Windows of Heaven
http://www.kjvbible.org/geysers.html

More on the Windows of Heaven of Noah's Flood
http://www.kjvbible.org/windows_of_heaven.html

Sea Level & Major Geological Event After Noah's Flood
http://www.kjvbible.org/peleg.html

Sediments,Fossils And Noah's Flood.NOT!
http://www.kjvbible.org/sediment.html

Global Dust Spikes,Greenland Ice Sheet,Paleoclimate Indicators and Collapse of Civilization All Correlate to Date of Noah's Flood
http://www.kjvbible.org/greenland_ice_sheet.html
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Ark encounter

#173

Post by Audie » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:35 pm

People are so easy to scam, just find what they want to believe.

crochet1949
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Re: Ark encounter

#174

Post by crochet1949 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:43 pm

Audie -- And, yes, on Google a person can find any information they want to find to support much anything they Want to support. People are easy to 'scam" ? Should probably let that comment go.

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Re: Ark encounter

#175

Post by Audie » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:07 pm

crochet1949 wrote:Audie -- And, yes, on Google a person can find any information they want to find to support much anything they Want to support. People are easy to 'scam" ? Should probably let that comment go.
Same with the bible, it supports anything anyone wants. Black slavery?
That was a cinch for those deep south bible thumpers. Slavery bad? Easy for the northern
abolitionists.

There is really no substitute for being able to think.

Websites to support a " flood"?
Yes; and people with no depth of knowledge, or common sense like not to go to tabloide
or woo woo sites walk right into the scams.

Surely no parent would be so reckless as to get meducal advice from yahoo or the
Enquirer if their child was sick? But I suppose they do, some do

I didnt go to google websites for my education. I did it the old fashion had way.

Many hours of lecture, lab, library and field. I didnt just memorize, I can explain
what I know.

But I think all this makes you uncomfortable, and I dont think you benefit from it.
People are differdnt. I like to discover I was wrong about something, it is a part of growth for me .
I live for "aha" and the couple of times it has all come togethrr in an epiphany were high
points in my life. Not sure what you like, but this voyage of discovery seems not to suit you.

Too bad, but maybe you should stay away from it.

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Re: Ark encounter

#176

Post by abelcainsbrother » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:21 pm

Audie wrote:
crochet1949 wrote:Audie -- And, yes, on Google a person can find any information they want to find to support much anything they Want to support. People are easy to 'scam" ? Should probably let that comment go.
Same with the bible, it supports anything anyone wants. Black slavery?
That was a cinch for those deep south bible thumpers. Slavery bad? Easy for the northern
abolitionists.

There is really no substitute for being able to think.

Websites to support a " flood"?
Yes; and people with no depth of knowledge, or common sense like not to go to tabloide
or woo woo sites walk right into the scams.

Surely no parent would be so reckless as to get meducal advice from yahoo or the
Enquirer if their child was sick? But I suppose they do, some do

I didnt go to google websites for my education. I did it the old fashion had way.

Many hours of lecture, lab, library and field. I didnt just memorize, I can explain
what I know.

But I think all this makes you uncomfortable, and I dont think you benefit from it.
People are differdnt. I like to discover I was wrong about something, it is a part of growth for me .
I live for "aha" and the couple of times it has all come togethrr in an epiphany were high
points in my life. Not sure what you like, but this voyage of discovery seems not to suit you.

Too bad, but maybe you should stay away from it.
You are just too biased against a flood to even consider its possibility.You already have your mind made up a flood did not happen and you wouldn't change your mind if there was evidence for a flood.You look at everything from an evolution and secular scientific view point and then only go by that view when interpreting things.It limits you greatly IMO.The truth is you cannot fully understand this universe and the things in it only going by what the bible says or with just science.It requires both God and science to understand the truth.Rely only on one or the other and it limits a person to fully understand the universe and the things in it.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Ark encounter

#177

Post by Audie » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:42 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Audie wrote:
crochet1949 wrote:Audie -- And, yes, on Google a person can find any information they want to find to support much anything they Want to support. People are easy to 'scam" ? Should probably let that comment go.
Same with the bible, it supports anything anyone wants. Black slavery?
That was a cinch for those deep south bible thumpers. Slavery bad? Easy for the northern
abolitionists.

There is really no substitute for being able to think.

Websites to support a " flood"?
Yes; and people with no depth of knowledge, or common sense like not to go to tabloide
or woo woo sites walk right into the scams.

Surely no parent would be so reckless as to get meducal advice from yahoo or the
Enquirer if their child was sick? But I suppose they do, some do

I didnt go to google websites for my education. I did it the old fashion had way.

Many hours of lecture, lab, library and field. I didnt just memorize, I can explain
what I know.

But I think all this makes you uncomfortable, and I dont think you benefit from it.
People are differdnt. I like to discover I was wrong about something, it is a part of growth for me .
I live for "aha" and the couple of times it has all come togethrr in an epiphany were high
points in my life. Not sure what you like, but this voyage of discovery seems not to suit you.

Too bad, but maybe you should stay away from it.
You are just too biased against a flood to even consider its possibility.You already have your mind made up a flood did not happen and you wouldn't change your mind if there was evidence for a flood.You look at everything from an evolution and secular scientific view point and then only go by that view when interpreting things.It limits you greatly IMO.The truth is you cannot fully understand this universe and the things in it only going by what the bible says or with just science.It requires both God and science to understand the truth.Rely only on one or the other and it limits a person to fully understand the universe and the things in it.

You demonstrate no ability to back up what you say with hard data, and instead impugn my integrity anc that of entire world scientific community. The ad hom, one of the world's moldiest fallacies.
Here is a fact: you know next to nothing about science, and less about me. You condtant habit of making up stupid and insulting falsehoods about me is most unbecoming, regsrdless of how "christian" you may think such noxious behaviour is.

The truth is you have zero (0) ability to disprove ToE, not one lonely little fact, not one.
How little sense would it require to take the hint?

If it is not true, show me. But you cant, because I am right.

You have not one thing, aka you've zero to disprove any of the countless things, like the age of polar ice that show your flood to be nothing but the childish superstition that Einstein called it.

If that isnt true, show us. Waiting. Waiting. Cant do it, can you?

Can you take a hint? No?

crochet1949
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Re: Ark encounter

#178

Post by crochet1949 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:13 pm

It has occurred to me that there Is something to the global / local flood debate otherwise it wouldn't be so hotly debated. Could it be that the implications are a bit too important?

Does intellectualism become a 'god' to some people?

People lash out as if their lives depend on their being right.

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Re: Ark encounter

#179

Post by Katabole » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:21 pm

I know this was posted up here a number of years ago and although not keeping with the thread, it does cover a number of ideas that have been commented on in the thread.

Ben Stein's No Intelligence Allowed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you know you gotta serve somebody. Bob Dylan

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Re: Ark encounter

#180

Post by Nessa » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:28 pm

Katabole wrote:I know this was posted up here a number of years ago and although not keeping with the thread, it does cover a number of ideas that have been commented on in the thread.

Ben Stein's No Intelligence Allowed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g
I've watched this a couple of times. I thought there were some really good points brought up in it.

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