Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21368
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 200 times
Been liked: 1077 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#91

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:39 am

Kurieuo wrote:Err, no. I'll have you know there is no micro/macro distinction.

Evolution is just a bunch of changes over time. The difference between micro and macro is just time. Why would you think there are limitations? Anything is possible really.

In that video we see a clear record of intermediary species between a wolf-like creature and the whale. All this happened within a few million years.

PS. Sorry to hijack the thread, I'm actually interested in the line of questioning.
When I read your post, at first I was like :shock:

Then I realized you were using sarcasm!

Good job! For a moment, I thought maybe you were an evotard! :mrgreen:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3046
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 187 times
Been liked: 339 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#92

Post by Storyteller » Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:41 am

RickD wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Err, no. I'll have you know there is no micro/macro distinction.

Evolution is just a bunch of changes over time. The difference between micro and macro is just time. Why would you think there are limitations? Anything is possible really.

In that video we see a clear record of intermediary species between a wolf-like creature and the whale. All this happened within a few million years.

PS. Sorry to hijack the thread, I'm actually interested in the line of questioning.
When I read your post, at first I was like :shock:

Then I realized you were using sarcasm!

Good job! For a moment, I thought maybe you were an evotard! :mrgreen:
*polishes sarcasm detector*

I`m ill, that`s my excuse.

Mind you, this is probably one of my favourite threads.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA
Has liked: 164 times
Been liked: 113 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#93

Post by Audie » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:06 am

Storyteller wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:No kidding ST! Imagine how surprised the wolves were who produced the first whale? :shock:
:pound: :pound:

Now I have images of wolves producing whales and going like :shock: :esurprised:

See, this is what gets me about evolution (not that I`m against it, there is a lot out there pointing to it`s validity)
I can just about get my head around how we, and everything, may have evolved, when you think of wolves and dogs, apes and man, etc. I can see the link, the similarities but when did it all start? How did we get from some single celled creature to me?

Then you get lions and tigers, same species, cat, yet they can`t successfully reproduce.

See, I wonder if we were all created as our basic "things" y`know, kinda like canine, feline, ovine, humanoid, etc then we just kept fine tuning it as we developed.

I am actually really open to evolution but I can`t see it not being driven by something. (God, obvs)
The transition from single to multicellular life is no big mystery, with
clear intermediate forms widely represented in living species.

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3046
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 187 times
Been liked: 339 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#94

Post by Storyteller » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:15 am

Audie wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:No kidding ST! Imagine how surprised the wolves were who produced the first whale? :shock:
:pound: :pound:

Now I have images of wolves producing whales and going like :shock: :esurprised:

See, this is what gets me about evolution (not that I`m against it, there is a lot out there pointing to it`s validity)
I can just about get my head around how we, and everything, may have evolved, when you think of wolves and dogs, apes and man, etc. I can see the link, the similarities but when did it all start? How did we get from some single celled creature to me?

Then you get lions and tigers, same species, cat, yet they can`t successfully reproduce.

See, I wonder if we were all created as our basic "things" y`know, kinda like canine, feline, ovine, humanoid, etc then we just kept fine tuning it as we developed.

I am actually really open to evolution but I can`t see it not being driven by something. (God, obvs)
The transition from single to multicellular life is no big mystery, with
clear intermediate forms widely represented in living species.
Maybe.

Still doesn`t answer how, or why.

God answers that question, for me at least.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21368
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 200 times
Been liked: 1077 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#95

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:37 am

Audie wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:No kidding ST! Imagine how surprised the wolves were who produced the first whale? :shock:
:pound: :pound:

Now I have images of wolves producing whales and going like :shock: :esurprised:

See, this is what gets me about evolution (not that I`m against it, there is a lot out there pointing to it`s validity)
I can just about get my head around how we, and everything, may have evolved, when you think of wolves and dogs, apes and man, etc. I can see the link, the similarities but when did it all start? How did we get from some single celled creature to me?

Then you get lions and tigers, same species, cat, yet they can`t successfully reproduce.

See, I wonder if we were all created as our basic "things" y`know, kinda like canine, feline, ovine, humanoid, etc then we just kept fine tuning it as we developed.

I am actually really open to evolution but I can`t see it not being driven by something. (God, obvs)
The transition from single to multicellular life is no big mystery, with
clear intermediate forms widely represented in living species.
That must be your version of "same evidence different belief". Or whatever it is that you talked about. I just don't see "clear" intermediate forms.
But hey, feel free to assert your beliefs with a hand wave, if you choose. :wave:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA
Has liked: 164 times
Been liked: 113 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#96

Post by Audie » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:46 am

Storyteller wrote:
Audie wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:No kidding ST! Imagine how surprised the wolves were who produced the first whale? :shock:
:pound: :pound:

Now I have images of wolves producing whales and going like :shock: :esurprised:

See, this is what gets me about evolution (not that I`m against it, there is a lot out there pointing to it`s validity)
I can just about get my head around how we, and everything, may have evolved, when you think of wolves and dogs, apes and man, etc. I can see the link, the similarities but when did it all start? How did we get from some single celled creature to me?

Then you get lions and tigers, same species, cat, yet they can`t successfully reproduce.

See, I wonder if we were all created as our basic "things" y`know, kinda like canine, feline, ovine, humanoid, etc then we just kept fine tuning it as we developed.

I am actually really open to evolution but I can`t see it not being driven by something. (God, obvs)
The transition from single to multicellular life is no big mystery, with
clear intermediate forms widely represented in living species.
Maybe.

Still doesn`t answer how, or why.

God answers that question, for me at least.
I can accept "god" as a possible answer for the existence of mass / energy, and whatnot.

"God" is no answer at all to forcadting weather, electrical engineering, geology or biology,
nor anything else of a of a physical nature beyond a posxible agency in setting it up.

The "why" quextion is an infinite regression thing of course, but the why of weather.
ocean currents, crystal formation or evolution is the same: that is how things respond to
the forces acting on them.

There are tiny blind white cave salamanders that are as they are not because evolution is the
constant "onward and upward" thing that many imagine, but because of environmental pressures
that favoured the adaptations we see.

From a "god" pov, why would this adaptive mechanism well known to exist anyway, not be
satisfactory, but instead he must track every living thing, meddle and tweak to keep it all going?

That is like pushing every cloud about, guiding every raindrop.

That is a weird reading for what an omniscient god would have to do.

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA
Has liked: 164 times
Been liked: 113 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#97

Post by Audie » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:56 am

RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:No kidding ST! Imagine how surprised the wolves were who produced the first whale? :shock:
:pound: :pound:

Now I have images of wolves producing whales and going like :shock: :esurprised:

See, this is what gets me about evolution (not that I`m against it, there is a lot out there pointing to it`s validity)
I can just about get my head around how we, and everything, may have evolved, when you think of wolves and dogs, apes and man, etc. I can see the link, the similarities but when did it all start? How did we get from some single celled creature to me?

Then you get lions and tigers, same species, cat, yet they can`t successfully reproduce.

See, I wonder if we were all created as our basic "things" y`know, kinda like canine, feline, ovine, humanoid, etc then we just kept fine tuning it as we developed.

I am actually really open to evolution but I can`t see it not being driven by something. (God, obvs)
The transition from single to multicellular life is no big mystery, with
clear intermediate forms widely represented in living species.
That must be your version of "same evidence different belief". Or whatever it is that you talked about. I just don't see "clear" intermediate forms.
But hey, feel free to assert your beliefs with a hand wave, if you choose. :wave:
Its fine to have a sardonic sense of humour, if one can actually achieve that and use it with some skill and discretion.

If you have some idea of the subject matter, try making a comment with some content?

Your jape there is you just doing what Paul complained elsewhere of me doing. ( along with a threat to not tolerate it much longer.)

Step up your game or step away, already.

User avatar
BGoodForGoodSake
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2125
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:44 am
Christian: No
Location: Washington D.C.
Has liked: 28 times
Been liked: 12 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#98

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:03 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
BGoodForGoodSake wrote: If it's not too much too ask, can we try not to refer back to your conclusions in each post?
ok, so my next question.
What do you mean by normal variation in reproduction?
Yes,we can refer back to my conclusions.I already told you what normal variation in reproduction is.I'll just use one example this time - the many different varieties of dogs shows normal variation in reproduction.
We are trying to build your argument. To show that x leads to y.
When you refer back to your conclusion you are jumping to the conclusion.

Next question.
Did dogs come from wolves?
Yes dogs came from wolves.
What makes Shih Tzu's so small?
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21368
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 200 times
Been liked: 1077 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#99

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:22 am

Audie wrote:
Its fine to have a sardonic sense of humour, if one can actually achieve that and use it with some skill and discretion.
Googling "sardonic" y:-?
If you have some idea of the subject matter, try making a comment with some content?
I did, but you just hand waved it away.
Your jape there is you just doing what Paul complained elsewhere of me doing. ( along with a threat to not tolerate it much longer.)
Googling "jape". y:-?
Step up your game or step away, already.
You mean take my ball and go home?
:mrgreen:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3046
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 187 times
Been liked: 339 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#100

Post by Storyteller » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:57 am

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
BGoodForGoodSake wrote: If it's not too much too ask, can we try not to refer back to your conclusions in each post?
ok, so my next question.
What do you mean by normal variation in reproduction?
Yes,we can refer back to my conclusions.I already told you what normal variation in reproduction is.I'll just use one example this time - the many different varieties of dogs shows normal variation in reproduction.
We are trying to build your argument. To show that x leads to y.
When you refer back to your conclusion you are jumping to the conclusion.

Next question.
Did dogs come from wolves?
Yes dogs came from wolves.
What makes Shih Tzu's so small?
God has a sense of humour :mrgreen:
These users liked this post by Storyteller:
BGoodForGoodSake (Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:48 pm)
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3046
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 187 times
Been liked: 339 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#101

Post by Storyteller » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:02 am

Audie wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
Audie wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:No kidding ST! Imagine how surprised the wolves were who produced the first whale? :shock:
:pound: :pound:

Now I have images of wolves producing whales and going like :shock: :esurprised:

See, this is what gets me about evolution (not that I`m against it, there is a lot out there pointing to it`s validity)
I can just about get my head around how we, and everything, may have evolved, when you think of wolves and dogs, apes and man, etc. I can see the link, the similarities but when did it all start? How did we get from some single celled creature to me?

Then you get lions and tigers, same species, cat, yet they can`t successfully reproduce.

See, I wonder if we were all created as our basic "things" y`know, kinda like canine, feline, ovine, humanoid, etc then we just kept fine tuning it as we developed.

I am actually really open to evolution but I can`t see it not being driven by something. (God, obvs)
The transition from single to multicellular life is no big mystery, with
clear intermediate forms widely represented in living species.
Maybe.

Still doesn`t answer how, or why.

God answers that question, for me at least.
I can accept "god" as a possible answer for the existence of mass / energy, and whatnot.
Audie believes in God! :mrgreen: Seriously though, so you accept God as a Creator is possible?
"God" is no answer at all to forcadting weather, electrical engineering, geology or biology,
nor anything else of a of a physical nature beyond a posxible agency in setting it up.

The "why" quextion is an infinite regression thing of course, but the why of weather.
ocean currents, crystal formation or evolution is the same: that is how things respond to
the forces acting on them.

There are tiny blind white cave salamanders that are as they are not because evolution is the
constant "onward and upward" thing that many imagine, but because of environmental pressures
that favoured the adaptations we see.
They evolved as far as they need.
From a "god" pov, why would this adaptive mechanism well known to exist anyway, not be
satisfactory, but instead he must track every living thing, meddle and tweak to keep it all going? Maybe He wants to be active in His creation.

That is like pushing every cloud about, guiding every raindrop.

That is a weird reading for what an omniscient god would have to do.Why?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA
Has liked: 164 times
Been liked: 113 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#102

Post by Audie » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:05 am

RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:
Its fine to have a sardonic sense of humour, if one can actually achieve that and use it with some skill and discretion.
Googling "sardonic" y:-?
If you have some idea of the subject matter, try making a comment with some content?
I did, but you just hand waved it away.
Your jape there is you just doing what Paul complained elsewhere of me doing. ( along with a threat to not tolerate it much longer.)
Googling "jape". y:-?
Step up your game or step away, already.
You mean take my ball and go home?
:mrgreen:

No, try to do better than your two successive gluten and content free posts.

Im serious, there is something very unsatisfactory here if I get threatened for
picking out a word or phrase to comnent on, and you are ok to post
insulting nonsense in place of content.

If that is the best you can offer, then please do refrain from comment.

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA
Has liked: 164 times
Been liked: 113 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#103

Post by Audie » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:10 am

Storyteller wrote:
Audie wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
Audie wrote:
Storyteller wrote: :pound: :pound:

Now I have images of wolves producing whales and going like :shock: :esurprised:

See, this is what gets me about evolution (not that I`m against it, there is a lot out there pointing to it`s validity)
I can just about get my head around how we, and everything, may have evolved, when you think of wolves and dogs, apes and man, etc. I can see the link, the similarities but when did it all start? How did we get from some single celled creature to me?

Then you get lions and tigers, same species, cat, yet they can`t successfully reproduce.

See, I wonder if we were all created as our basic "things" y`know, kinda like canine, feline, ovine, humanoid, etc then we just kept fine tuning it as we developed.

I am actually really open to evolution but I can`t see it not being driven by something. (God, obvs)
The transition from single to multicellular life is no big mystery, with
clear intermediate forms widely represented in living species.
Maybe.

Still doesn`t answer how, or why.

God answers that question, for me at least.
I can accept "god" as a possible answer for the existence of mass / energy, and whatnot.
Audie believes in God! :mrgreen: Seriously though, so you accept God as a Creator is possible?
"God" is no answer at all to forcadting weather, electrical engineering, geology or biology,
nor anything else of a of a physical nature beyond a posxible agency in setting it up.

The "why" quextion is an infinite regression thing of course, but the why of weather.
ocean currents, crystal formation or evolution is the same: that is how things respond to
the forces acting on them.

There are tiny blind white cave salamanders that are as they are not because evolution is the
constant "onward and upward" thing that many imagine, but because of environmental pressures
that favoured the adaptations we see.
They evolved as far as they need.
From a "god" pov, why would this adaptive mechanism well known to exist anyway, not be
satisfactory, but instead he must track every living thing, meddle and tweak to keep it all going? Maybe He wants to be active in His creation.

That is like pushing every cloud about, guiding every raindrop.

That is a weird reading for what an omniscient god would have to do.Why?
Responding just to the science part, "need" is not really it. Outside forces act on living things,
eliminating the ones less able / unable to survive the stress. The result is a population
with the genetic makeup to better survive and reproduce.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21368
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 200 times
Been liked: 1077 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#104

Post by RickD » Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:38 pm

Audie wrote:
Responding just to the science part, "need" is not really it. Outside forces act on living things,
eliminating the ones less able / unable to survive the stress. The result is a population
with the genetic makeup to better survive and reproduce.
Why haven't these "outside forces" eliminated homosexuality and infertility then?

With that logic, You'd think millions of years of human evolution would've eliminated things that hinder survivability and reproduction.
These users liked this post by RickD:
Nicki (Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:54 am)
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 9962
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia
Has liked: 634 times
Been liked: 655 times

Re: Why is there a conflict between religion and science?

#105

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:10 pm

It's a funny thing adaptation.
Doing a lot of work with your bare hands labouring and the like, your skin thickens and hardens.
So you know, if you go swimming lots then it eventually starts looking like this:
fin-hand.jpg
fin-hand.jpg (23.39 KiB) Viewed 1157 times
And then, before you know (or actually a long, long time after) your great, great, great, great, great, great ...., great, great, great, great grandchildren have adapted to the water, become a vicious predator and surviving the seven seas.
fishman.jpg
fishman.jpg (50.9 KiB) Viewed 1157 times
Yeah! That's what I'm talking about! No limits!
Pure adaptation and its oxymoronic brother natural selection baby!
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

Post Reply