The uselessness of science

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9027
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 338 times

The uselessness of science

#1

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:41 am

According to some:
Science doesn't prove anything and is not in the business of proving anything.
Science doesn't address anything either.
So, of course, the question MUST be asked:
If science is not in the business of addressing ANYTHING much less PROVING anything, what good is it?

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21081
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 193 times
Been liked: 1048 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#2

Post by RickD » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:23 am

Who's the genius who claims that science doesn't address anything?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

EssentialSacrifice
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 842
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:19 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 118 times
Been liked: 66 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#3

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:53 am

When science disproves something, isn't that a form of proof of something ? y:-? y*-:)
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

User avatar
1over137
Technical Admin
Posts: 5197
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Slovakia
Has liked: 128 times
Been liked: 284 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#4

Post by 1over137 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:35 am

PaulSacramento wrote:According to some:
Science doesn't prove anything and is not in the business of proving anything.
Science doesn't address anything either.
So, of course, the question MUST be asked:
If science is not in the business of addressing ANYTHING much less PROVING anything, what good is it?
What the verb address here means really?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9027
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 338 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#5

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:49 am

RickD wrote:Who's the genius who claims that science doesn't address anything?
That's isn't important right now ( but I am sure you can suspect).
One of the many ways that skeptics that have put their "faith" in science get around the whole issue that science is NOT always right NOR does science even state that any of its conclusions should be viewed as "indisputable" , is to say things like, "science doesn't prove anything" or "science isn't in the business of proving things" or "science doesn't address anything".
BUT for people like me who hold science very dearly ( I am mechanical engineer and working on my bach. in physics) that crap pisses me off.
Science is quite simply this:


The word science comes from the Latin "scientia," meaning knowledge.

How do we define science? According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."

What does that really mean? Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21081
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 193 times
Been liked: 1048 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#6

Post by RickD » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:57 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:Who's the genius who claims that science doesn't address anything?
That's isn't important right now ( but I am sure you can suspect).
One of the many ways that skeptics that have put their "faith" in science get around the whole issue that science is NOT always right NOR does science even state that any of its conclusions should be viewed as "indisputable" , is to say things like, "science doesn't prove anything" or "science isn't in the business of proving things" or "science doesn't address anything".
BUT for people like me who hold science very dearly ( I am mechanical engineer and working on my bach. in physics) that crap pisses me off.
Science is quite simply this:


The word science comes from the Latin "scientia," meaning knowledge.

How do we define science? According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."

What does that really mean? Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena.
Ok. I can understand someone saying that science doesn't prove things. ES's quote, notwithstanding.
But to say that science doesn't address anything? That's just ridiculous. That's what science does. Science uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain, or address natural phenomena.

And Paul,

If you're talking about who I think you're talking about, I don't think he said that science doesn't address anything.

But maybe I'm wrong. Do you have a quote?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9027
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 338 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#7

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:16 pm

EssentialSacrifice wrote:When science disproves something, isn't that a form of proof of something ? y:-? y*-:)
Science, supposedly, isn't in the business of disproving either...

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21081
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 193 times
Been liked: 1048 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#8

Post by RickD » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:25 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
EssentialSacrifice wrote:When science disproves something, isn't that a form of proof of something ? y:-? y*-:)
Science, supposedly, isn't in the business of disproving either...
:scratch:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9027
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 338 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:50 pm

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:Who's the genius who claims that science doesn't address anything?
That's isn't important right now ( but I am sure you can suspect).
One of the many ways that skeptics that have put their "faith" in science get around the whole issue that science is NOT always right NOR does science even state that any of its conclusions should be viewed as "indisputable" , is to say things like, "science doesn't prove anything" or "science isn't in the business of proving things" or "science doesn't address anything".
BUT for people like me who hold science very dearly ( I am mechanical engineer and working on my bach. in physics) that crap pisses me off.
Science is quite simply this:


The word science comes from the Latin "scientia," meaning knowledge.

How do we define science? According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."

What does that really mean? Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena.
Ok. I can understand someone saying that science doesn't prove things. ES's quote, notwithstanding.
But to say that science doesn't address anything? That's just ridiculous. That's what science does. Science uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain, or address natural phenomena.

And Paul,

If you're talking about who I think you're talking about, I don't think he said that science doesn't address anything.

But maybe I'm wrong. Do you have a quote?
You may be correct, what was said was:
Science doesn't address everything, so the claim everything has a cause is not a claim backed up by science.
Which, to be honest, is semantics since the CONTEXT was clear that what was being discussed is what is observable and, to be even more honest, I am getting tired of these little games that are played by people that use science to DISPROVE everything that can BUT are the first to say that science isn't about that as soon as science can't disprove something, know what I mean?

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9027
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 338 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#10

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:52 pm

Science is, in reality, ALL about proving things.
Proving a hypothesis, proving a theory, proving an observation, about making statements that can be read as laws.
Are these views set in stone? NO.
Are the irrevocable? NO.
Are they 100% for sure? never to be disprove? NO.
In fact science goes out of it's way to try and disprove what has been proven.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21081
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 193 times
Been liked: 1048 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#11

Post by RickD » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:44 pm

Paul,

The whole conversation is pointless. Kenny has been shown numerous times, that philosophy proves that anything that begins to exist, has a cause. Instead of dealing with that, he goes off track to say that science doesn't prove that "everything has a cause". It's just ridiculous. The real issue Kenny needs to deal with is the philosophical one. Instead of dealing with that, he just waves his hand at that, and argues about something else.

It's like this...we show Kenny that 1+1=2. Instead of dealing with that fact, he goes off and argues that there may be other numbers somewhere that we don't know about yet, so we can't know that 1+1=2.

And yes, it's frustrating. If I were a member here, I'd just ignore it. But as a moderator, I can't. I've never seen someone who just refuses to deal with reality like he does. When jlay said he was being obtuse, that sums it up perfectly.
ob·tuse
əbˈt(y)o͞os,äbˈt(y)o͞os/
adjective
1.
annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
"he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse"
synonyms: stupid, slow-witted, slow, dull-witted, unintelligent, ignorant, simpleminded, witless;
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 168 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#12

Post by abelcainsbrother » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:33 pm

When it comes to science? I treat it the same way I do for anything that comes from man.I believe we should always believe God over man first and knowing what we know about man and history man can be right but he can also be wrong.man can seem so right and true and even seem to have evidence to back it up and yet over time be proven totally wrong.We can look backin time and examine thoughts,beliefs,philosophies,etc and realize how right they thought they were and yet how wrong they turned out to be.

This is why it is just not wise at all to believe anything man says is true over God just like the bible tells us.But also the bible warns about great deception in the last days so that the elect of God could be decieved and we are in the last days so this means more than ever we need to take the truth very seriously.So for science? I treat it just like i do for anything man says is true i go by science on a case by case basis based on evidence when it comes to science.Science can be right but it can also get things wrong so I go by science on a case by case basis based on evidence.

Based on doing this I reject evolution and it is based on a lack of real evidence that demonstrates life evolves.If scientists cannot make life evolve? it did not happen on its own.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

User avatar
LittleHamster
Valued Member
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:00 am
Christian: Yes
Has liked: 83 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#13

Post by LittleHamster » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:56 pm

Here is a possible reason why science may not help....http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ience+will

'Reason' seems to work rather well for science.

'Faith' seems to work rather well for salvation.


relevant quote.........

"Listen, philosopher, to what I tell thee: we believe, that the Almighty God from out of nothing did create by His Word and His Spirit both heaven and earth, and all the world both visible and invisible. The Word is the Son of God, Who didst come down upon the earth on account of our sins; he wast born of a Virgin, He lived amongst mankind, and suffered and died for our salvation, and then He arose, having redeemed by His sufferings the Original Sin, and He hath resurrected with Him the human race. We believe, that He is One in Essence and Equal-in-Dignity with the Father, and we believe this without any sly rationalisations, since it is impossible to grasp this mystery by human reason"

- Saint Spyridon (c. 270 – 348 AD)
Has Liked: 1111 times
Been Liked: 1111 times

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8204
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 381 times
Been liked: 611 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#14

Post by Philip » Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:13 pm

To be terribly redundant, ya can't just throw out science as irrelevant to the things and methods of God. In fact, science itself is all about studying - what - THE THINGS OF GOD! God made us rational beings with a yearning to learn, discover, the ability to invent technology that enables incredible (no, not always accurate) levels of discovery. AND, let's not forget that the ONLY reason we can do ANY science to show things that are beyond reasonable doubts is because God built consistency into His universe, its design, its functionality. Experiments can help validate hypotheses precisely because of how God put the universe together. So, HE gave us the intelligence, the curiosity, the ability to design and use tools, and the intelligence behind all of that. So, yeah, people sometimes dismiss how science reveals God far too casually, IMHO.

User avatar
LittleHamster
Valued Member
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:00 am
Christian: Yes
Has liked: 83 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: The uselessness of science

#15

Post by LittleHamster » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:15 am

Science is great! I love science (as do many other members of this forum). I guess a lot of us started in various scientific fields hoping to find the answers to the mystery of life. There was a great joy in writing that first scientific publication :-)

Consider this perspective:

Let's say you send your children off into the backyard garden. As a father, how would you expect them to know you better?

By studying the garden? By getting caught up in Scientific Materialism ?

Definitely not. They should, at least, begin by studying themselves -- "Know Thyself".

Knowing and understanding your true self will definitely help. Even Studying the relationship between you and your children brings you closer to knowing God (remember, we are made in his image).

Then, when Christ sends you the Holy Spirit -- the teacher -- the advocate -- the comforter, then the next stage of learning begins.
Has Liked: 1111 times
Been Liked: 1111 times

Post Reply