Chicken or the egg?

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#16

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:44 am

Storyteller wrote:That did cross my mind as I was posting it but wasn't sure.

Back to that then...

Male bird -x mates with female bird -y which produces a chicken egg?
Annette,

That's the problem. Has it been shown anywhere else, that a male and female of the same species, have mated, and a different kind of animal was created?

And to reiterate, we can't be talking about a male and female of species y chicken, mating and producing a chicken z species. Because the question was about what came first, the chicken, or the chicken egg. Even if it were possible that a new chicken species could be created, it's still a chicken, and doesn't answer the question.
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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#17

Post by B. W. » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:50 am

RickD wrote:Just been thinking late at night when I should be sleeping.

According to evolution, what came first, the chicken or the egg? And why? y~:>
That scrambles ones thoughts...

Would that be an African or European Chicken Egg?
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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#18

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:53 am

Yeah, but African chickens are non-migratory...

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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#19

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:58 am

Doesn't anyone else see the issue this causes for evolution? Or am I the only one who sees this?

Would someone above my simple layman pay grade please explain what I'm missing?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#20

Post by B. W. » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:45 pm

RickD wrote:Doesn't anyone else see the issue this causes for evolution? Or am I the only one who sees this?

Would someone above my simple layman pay grade please explain what I'm missing?
Well, there needed to a bird around in order for there to even be an egg.

Who would have kept the baby bird warm and feed it unless there was a parent bird to do so?

What part of logic that is alluding you New England Florida man?

A while back, FL offered you sea side mountain cabin in the Florida Everglades with great views... have you purchased it yet?
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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#21

Post by Byblos » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:02 pm

RickD wrote:Doesn't anyone else see the issue this causes for evolution? Or am I the only one who sees this?

Would someone above my simple layman pay grade please explain what I'm missing?
From an evolutionary standpoint it is explained thusly (summarized from here):

- Reptiles are said to be the first "inventors" of the egg shell. It provided an evolutionary advantage to protect offspring outside of the body.
- Birds evolved from reptiles and retained the production of egg shells and laying of eggs
- Most mammals evolved to retain the embryo in the mother's womb, there was no evolutionary advantage for egg shells so they were dropped (a process called viviparity).

That's really it in a nutshell (pun very much intended :mrgreen: ).

Now of course we can keep asking the same question with reptiles instead of birds and that will lead nowhere quick (or will stop all the way back with the first living cell).
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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#22

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:10 pm

Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:Doesn't anyone else see the issue this causes for evolution? Or am I the only one who sees this?

Would someone above my simple layman pay grade please explain what I'm missing?
From an evolutionary standpoint it is explained thusly (summarized from here):

- Reptiles are said to be the first "inventors" of the egg shell. It provided an evolutionary advantage to protect offspring outside of the body.
- Birds evolved from reptiles and retained the production of egg shells and laying of eggs
- Most mammals evolved to retain the embryo in the mother's womb, there was no evolutionary advantage for egg shells so they were dropped (a process called viviparity).

That's really it in a nutshell (pun very much intended :mrgreen: ).

Now of course we can keep asking the same question with reptiles instead of birds and that will lead nowhere quick (or will stop all the way back with the first living cell).
Byblos,

While that article told me everything I ever really wanted to know about eggs from an evolution perspective, it does nothing to answer my question.

From an evolutionary perspective, What came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?

I don't care if some non chicken egg came before a chicken, because birds evolved from reptiles. I'm specifically talking about a chicken egg.

Capisce?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#23

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:14 pm

B. W. wrote:
RickD wrote:Doesn't anyone else see the issue this causes for evolution? Or am I the only one who sees this?

Would someone above my simple layman pay grade please explain what I'm missing?
Well, there needed to a bird around in order for there to even be an egg.

Who would have kept the baby bird warm and feed it unless there was a parent bird to do so?

What part of logic that is alluding you New England Florida man?

A while back, FL offered you sea side mountain cabin in the Florida Everglades with great views... have you purchased it yet?
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I don't think you understand what I'm asking. Specifically from an evolutionary pov, what came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?

From science, we know all chickens come from chicken eggs. And we also know that all chicken eggs come from chickens.

Sounds like a mind bending paradox on the same level as dividing by zero. :lol:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#24

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:16 pm

RickD wrote:
Daniel,

When googling an answer to a question, isn't it usually good etiquette to read until the end?
If you did, you would've seen that particular article didn't say "neither". It said:
So, the egg must have come first.
But I wasn't really looking for someone to just do a google search and post a link. I can do that. I was looking for someone who actually knew something about the subject, so I could get an explanation.

Nevertheless, that's one vote for the egg.
I answered and then added an edit for the link later, my first answer still stands, neither came first. I did read the link until the end by the way, stop being such a sook.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#25

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:28 pm

Everyone, the chicken IS the egg and the egg IS the chicken, so neither came first as they are the same thing.................................
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#26

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:32 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
RickD wrote:
Daniel,

When googling an answer to a question, isn't it usually good etiquette to read until the end?
If you did, you would've seen that particular article didn't say "neither". It said:
So, the egg must have come first.
But I wasn't really looking for someone to just do a google search and post a link. I can do that. I was looking for someone who actually knew something about the subject, so I could get an explanation.

Nevertheless, that's one vote for the egg.
I answered and then added an edit for the link later, my first answer still stands, neither came first. I did read the link until the end by the way, stop being such a sook.
Daniel,

In my question I asked for an answer, and an explanation as to why. Your answer was "neither", and your explanation was a link that contradicted your answer.

I'm still waiting for an explanation on your "neither" answer. Or if you changed your mind, an explanation on that.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#27

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:36 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Everyone, the chicken IS the egg and the egg IS the chicken, so neither came first as they are the same thing.................................
Daniel,

That does nothing but avoid the question. I'll ask this especially for you then:
According to evolution, what came first, the chicken inside or outside the egg.

If you can't answer, I can understand. I can't figure it out either. There's no shame in not knowing.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#28

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:46 pm

RickD wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Everyone, the chicken IS the egg and the egg IS the chicken, so neither came first as they are the same thing.................................
Daniel,

That does nothing but avoid the question. I'll ask this especially for you then:
According to evolution, what came first, the chicken inside or outside the egg.

If you can't answer, I can understand. I can't figure it out either. There's no shame in not knowing.
Not knowing! you got to be kidding right, even my children could answer this basic question, before reptiles became birds they laid eggs and then they evolved feathers, beaks, wings etc..... and low and behold they eventually became birds, and then one day after millions of generations and mutations a chicken was laid. Think of it like this Rick, you create a new breed of chicken through selective breeding, what came first the new breed or the egg. lol
Last edited by Danieltwotwenty on Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#29

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:47 pm

RickD wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
RickD wrote:
Daniel,

When googling an answer to a question, isn't it usually good etiquette to read until the end?
If you did, you would've seen that particular article didn't say "neither". It said:
So, the egg must have come first.
But I wasn't really looking for someone to just do a google search and post a link. I can do that. I was looking for someone who actually knew something about the subject, so I could get an explanation.

Nevertheless, that's one vote for the egg.
I answered and then added an edit for the link later, my first answer still stands, neither came first. I did read the link until the end by the way, stop being such a sook.
Daniel,

In my question I asked for an answer, and an explanation as to why. Your answer was "neither", and your explanation was a link that contradicted your answer.

I'm still waiting for an explanation on your "neither" answer. Or if you changed your mind, an explanation on that.
It's not a contradiction, both answers are true.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Chicken or the egg?

#30

Post by Proinsias » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:56 pm

RickD wrote:I don't think you understand what I'm asking. Specifically from an evolutionary pov, what came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?

From science, we know all chickens come from chicken eggs. And we also know that all chicken eggs come from chickens.

Sounds like a mind bending paradox on the same level as dividing by zero. :lol:
I think that's the point of the chicken or the egg, it hurts the head.

Part of the problem, or joy of it, is that the chicken is defined not so much by the species it belongs to in the evolutionary sense but by the idea that a chicken is something which has been domesticated by humans, Gallus gallus domesticus.

In light of the above, I'll do a 180 on my previous post and make the claim that the chicken came first as no one could domestic an egg...........but wait a minute, isn't incubating an egg domesticating it? Doh

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