Evidence for theistic evolution

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6028
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 100 times
Been liked: 143 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#721

Post by Byblos » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:38 am

Audie wrote:Why not speak to / of people actually present rather than some dimbulb out there somewhere, who may exist.
Seriously, can a moderator please tell me how much longer we're supposed to tolerate this? The outright hypocrisy alone is simply astounding. :shakehead:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3053
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 340 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#722

Post by Storyteller » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:43 am

That`s the point though!

We are His children, which is why He did what He did.

We don`t owe Him anything, all He asks is for us to believe.

And, it was more than just an ugly death. he was ridiculed, disbelieved, tortured, and crucified! Sure, lots of people suffer but so did He, and, the major point in this is that He suffered to save us, not to save Himself.

I just think that this short time we get on this earth is such a beautiful thing, it seems churlish to not be grateful for such a precious gift.

God didn`t decide we owe him a debt. What debt do you think we owe Him? The only thing God wants from us is love and trust me Audie, the love you get back is hundred fold.

Try as I might I just can`t accept that all this is just pure luck and chance. That, to me, seems too insid eout bonkers.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

User avatar
Rob
Valued Member
Posts: 326
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:26 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#723

Post by Rob » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:50 am

Storyteller wrote: We don`t owe Him anything, all He asks is for us to believe.
I would say we owe Him everything, but all He requires is for us to believe.

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA
Has liked: 164 times
Been liked: 113 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#724

Post by Audie » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:56 am

Storyteller wrote:That`s the point though!

We are His children, which is why He did what He did.

We don`t owe Him anything, all He asks is for us to believe.

And, it was more than just an ugly death. he was ridiculed, disbelieved, tortured, and crucified! Sure, lots of people suffer but so did He, and, the major point in this is that He suffered to save us, not to save Himself.

I just think that this short time we get on this earth is such a beautiful thing, it seems churlish to not be grateful for such a precious gift.

God didn`t decide we owe him a debt. What debt do you think we owe Him? The only thing God wants from us is love and trust me Audie, the love you get back is hundred fold.

Try as I might I just can`t accept that all this is just pure luck and chance. That, to me, seems too insid eout bonkers.
Many many people have suffered far worse in the name of the same god.

It is presented as payment for debt. If its not that, it makes even less sense.

The "all pure luck and chance" is actually a straw argument. Who even says it?

The nature of reality is far beyond human comprehension, yes.

Cats cannot account for catfood.

But given the reality that we have, its not only not necessary to invoke a god to say why lightning strikes or people are smart, its regressive.

Thousands of years of that kind of thinking got people exactly nowhere.

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA
Has liked: 164 times
Been liked: 113 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#725

Post by Audie » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:58 am

Rob wrote:
Storyteller wrote: We don`t owe Him anything, all He asks is for us to believe.
I would say we owe Him everything, but all He requires is for us to believe.

Um, not even Visa platinum? Geesh, now what.

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3053
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 340 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#726

Post by Storyteller » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:21 am

Rob wrote:
Storyteller wrote: We don`t owe Him anything, all He asks is for us to believe.
I would say we owe Him everything, but all He requires is for us to believe.
I know.

I put that really badly, didn`t I?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8638
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 413 times
Been liked: 649 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#727

Post by Philip » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:29 am

Audie: you speak of universally accepted truths, then say the yecs get it wrong.
No, I was specifically speaking of "a" universally accepted Bible truth that is understood by Christians around the world - that THIS world was never intended to be strife free and peaceful, that whatever negatives and evil are allowed are only for the present earth's period and are used, despite whatever man's nefarious schemes and motives might be, to produce the most Believers in bliss-filled eternity - a FAR greater good. As if all of the difficulties, disease, evil and violence of this world was merely pointless suffering, God would do away with it - because He hates it. But He also has far greater purposes, which are eternal. And the cost of providing man free will is that he will often make terrible choices combined with their connected actions. But the ultimate choice of everyone is what God is FIRST after, then comes the peace - but only for those who seek and find the Lord. The rest will never have it. EVER.
Audie: As for me, I am not "many non believers' but perhaps you thought like, oh oh here comes another one.
Yes, Audie, I know you are QUITE unique! :D
Audie: Some of the horrendous diseases to which people are subject does tho, I think legitimately lead one to think "his" idea of "good" included a lot of things he would not want for himself.
God has already suffered unimaginably, both physically and emotionally - and FAR beyond what you, I or the typical person will ever go through.
Audie: As for me, I recognize that things are as they are, nobody planned it, nobody is in charge.
But there is great planning and precision, from the very beginning of the universe, that shows it HAD to have been planned and designed on a scale we cannot comprehend. And this universe, from it's early moments, adhered to precision and guidance, not only per the mechanisms that so miraculously guide it (natural laws of great power of consistency), but that these things instantly appeared, where before NONE of what we know existed. That sounds like a Designer that is in charge, to me. I don't believe in the impossible: Nothing produces the incredible and then guides itself with such precision.

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8638
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 413 times
Been liked: 649 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#728

Post by Philip » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:01 am

Audie: The "all pure luck and chance" is actually a straw argument. Who even says it?
YOU might not say it, but you have either one of two possibilities: A God created all that came into existence, or things could exist without a cause.
Audie: The nature of reality is far beyond human comprehension, yes.
But our existence is a fact. And if there is no God ... yep, random dumb luck and enough time creates things out of nothing - BY nothing - organizes it into an extraordinary existence. If I could have such random luck, even a minutia of such, I'd head to Vegas and quickly become the richest man - well, at least as rich as winning every game of chance in every casino in Vegas would make me. Statistically, I would have to agree with you, NO one who understands probabilities believes in such "pure luck and chance" - and yet, here we are, in a tiny world in a vast universe,typing on machines utilizing ones and zeros networked across the world, day after day on this forum. But what you have is either "pure luck and chance" - with enough time - doing what you and I can't comprehend. Else...

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA
Has liked: 164 times
Been liked: 113 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#729

Post by Audie » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:24 am

Philip wrote:
Audie: you speak of universally accepted truths, then say the yecs get it wrong.
No, I was specifically speaking of "a" universally accepted Bible truth that is understood by Christians around the world - that THIS world was never intended to be strife free and peaceful, that whatever negatives and evil are allowed are only for the present earth's period and are used, despite whatever man's nefarious schemes and motives might be, to produce the most Believers in bliss-filled eternity - a FAR greater good. As if all of the difficulties, disease, evil and violence of this world was merely pointless suffering, God would do away with it - because He hates it. But He also has far greater purposes, which are eternal. And the cost of providing man free will is that he will often make terrible choices combined with their connected actions. But the ultimate choice of everyone is what God is FIRST after, then comes the peace - but only for those who seek and find the Lord. The rest will never have it. EVER.
Audie: As for me, I am not "many non believers' but perhaps you thought like, oh oh here comes another one.
Yes, Audie, I know you are QUITE unique! :D
Audie: Some of the horrendous diseases to which people are subject does tho, I think legitimately lead one to think "his" idea of "good" included a lot of things he would not want for himself.
God has already suffered unimaginably, both physically and emotionally - and FAR beyond what you, I or the typical person will ever go through.
Audie: As for me, I recognize that things are as they are, nobody planned it, nobody is in charge.
But there is great planning and precision, from the very beginning of the universe, that shows it HAD to have been planned and designed on a scale we cannot comprehend. And this universe, from it's early moments, adhered to precision and guidance, not only per the mechanisms that so miraculously guide it (natural laws of great power of consistency), but that these things instantly appeared, where before NONE of what we know existed. That sounds like a Designer that is in charge, to me. I don't believe in the impossible: Nothing produces the incredible and then guides itself with such precision.
Im not big on the impossible either, hence the flood, 6 day poof, and god in general are not on my list of impossible things to believe before breakfast.

East is east and west is west, we will never meet in the middle.

I do appreciate your effort.

Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA
Has liked: 164 times
Been liked: 113 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#730

Post by Audie » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:28 am

Philip wrote:
Audie: The "all pure luck and chance" is actually a straw argument. Who even says it?
YOU might not say it, but you have either one of two possibilities: A God created all that came into existence, or things could exist without a cause.
Audie: The nature of reality is far beyond human comprehension, yes.
But our existence is a fact. And if there is no God ... yep, random dumb luck and enough time creates things out of nothing - BY nothing - organizes it into an extraordinary existence. If I could have such random luck, even a minutia of such, I'd head to Vegas and quickly become the richest man - well, at least as rich as winning every game of chance in every casino in Vegas would make me. Statistically, I would have to agree with you, NO one who understands probabilities believes in such "pure luck and chance" - and yet, here we are, in a tiny world in a vast universe,typing on machines utilizing ones and zeros networked across the world, day after day on this forum. But what you have is either "pure luck and chance" - with enough time - doing what you and I can't comprehend. Else...
I dont tend to do binary thinking. If a cat thought about the origin of catfood, he might come with an either / or, but you'd know that both are going to be wrong.

The way you present pure dumb luck and chance is not representative of the thinking of an educated person who does not happen to think that "god" is it. Again, the stupidity of persons not present is of no interest to me.

Curious... do you feel that there is anything that is random?

Or that order can self organize from disorder, ever?

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6028
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 100 times
Been liked: 143 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#731

Post by Byblos » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:37 am

Audie wrote:The way you present pure dumb luck and chance is not representative of the thinking of an educated person who does not happen to think that "god" is it.
There are 2 logical alternatives:

- An uncaused cause/unchanged changer, or
- Eternal matter/energy with a set of brute-force, inexplicable, unverifiable laws

A 3rd alternative would be something from nothing but that's completely illogical.

If there are other alternatives I'd love to hear them.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3053
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 340 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#732

Post by Storyteller » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:45 am

Audie wrote:
Philip wrote:
Audie: The "all pure luck and chance" is actually a straw argument. Who even says it?
YOU might not say it, but you have either one of two possibilities: A God created all that came into existence, or things could exist without a cause.
Audie: The nature of reality is far beyond human comprehension, yes.
But our existence is a fact. And if there is no God ... yep, random dumb luck and enough time creates things out of nothing - BY nothing - organizes it into an extraordinary existence. If I could have such random luck, even a minutia of such, I'd head to Vegas and quickly become the richest man - well, at least as rich as winning every game of chance in every casino in Vegas would make me. Statistically, I would have to agree with you, NO one who understands probabilities believes in such "pure luck and chance" - and yet, here we are, in a tiny world in a vast universe,typing on machines utilizing ones and zeros networked across the world, day after day on this forum. But what you have is either "pure luck and chance" - with enough time - doing what you and I can't comprehend. Else...
I dont tend to do binary thinking. If a cat thought about the origin of catfood, he might come with an either / or, but you'd know that both are going to be wrong.

Why?
The way you present pure dumb luck and chance is not representative of the thinking of an educated person who does not happen to think that "god" is it. Again, the stupidity of persons not present is of no interest to me.

If not god or luck, then what?
Curious... do you feel that there is anything that is random?
Yes
Or that order can self organize from disorder, ever?
I think it can.

I know you werent asking me but wanted to share.

And Audie, lets say there is no God, what is the harm in believing?

Do me a favour, as a friend? Look for reasons why He may be real rather than not, just for a while and see if it changes your mind.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

User avatar
Storyteller
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3053
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 188 times
Been liked: 340 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#733

Post by Storyteller » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:46 am

sorry I messed up the wuoting a bit x
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8638
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 413 times
Been liked: 649 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#734

Post by Philip » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:42 pm

Audie: The way you present pure dumb luck and chance is not representative of the thinking of an educated person who does not happen to think that "god" is it.
How else are we to present random events and processes creating and organizing by themselves, long preceded by dimensions of space and time, all matter and energy, coming into existence all at once, with astounding precision and unimaginable energy? Do you deny that this is what happened? That's what science tells us - prolifically - from countless scientists who have long studied the Big Bang event, along with copious amounts of validating data. Is it the word "dumb" that you find offensive? Actually, that's a bit of appropriate sarcasm, as what happened is brilliant and awe-inspiring. Or would you swap out the word "dumb" for "inevitable" - but that leaves nothing to random chance, eh? And so how can an "educated person" believe nothing causes something so spectacular and infinitely complex? You insist One possibility is impossible, while your only other alternative is completely impossible, scientifically or based upon any of the world's knowledge or understandings.

What those who assert what Audie does are calling science are only the observable, after-the-fact PROCESSES that HAVE to have be preceded by a cause and as well origins of self-existing things that make them possible. That's what we call Pop Metaphysics. Can you get a PhD in that discipline?

Audie, when you make statement like the one at the top here, you are setting yourself above millions of well-educated and deep-thinking Christians (not to mention those of other faiths!) - I mean, talk about your blanket statements. Now, perhaps YOU, as an educated person, don't allow your thinking to go near a God cause, but please don't be so arrogant. And YOU get so easily offended by some of the unintended-so statements, and then you post such.
Audie: Again, the stupidity of persons not present is of no interest to me.
And again!

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 8638
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 413 times
Been liked: 649 times

Re: Evidence for theistic evolution

#735

Post by Philip » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:00 pm

Seriously, if you're gonna believe in the Pop Metaphysics that tells us a universe can pop into existence with incredibly detailed organizing laws, fantastical-designed mechanics, preceded by previously non-existing time, space, matter, unbelievable energy, BY THEMSELVES, UNCAUSED - I mean,What's NEXT? You gonna tell me you have a picture of Big Foot using the Loch Ness Monster for a surfboard? What? :pound:

Uh, oh!!! Apparently, they are both REAL! :esurprised: (But it's probably just two guys in monster suits). Now, I guess ANYTHING is possible!

Image

Sorry, but I just couldn't help myself. :roll:

Post Reply