End of Physics.

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End of Physics.

#1

Post by Silvertusk » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:04 am

Fascinating podcast. Well worth a listen.

Silvertusk.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-end- ... of-physics

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Re: End of Physics.

#2

Post by 1over137 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:54 am

From the article
This is really amazing because this is what physicists thought at the end of the 19th century. They thought that physics was then nearly complete. We’ve got the story now of the way reality is. Then came relativity theory and quantum theory and upset the whole apple cart. What Ellis is saying is that the situation now is quite different than at the end of the 19th century.There they simply thought that they knew everything. He is saying what is the situation now is that we’ve reached the limits that are humanly possible for having any higher energy experiments or for probing more deeply into outer space. He is saying that there is a kind of in-principle reason for thinking that we’ve pretty much got the full physical story. That is really remarkable.
I do not think it is the end of Physics. Still we do not understand quantum theory. Why and how are particles entangled for example? Or we still did not manage to combine gravity with other three forces.

And if they say we reached energetical and financial limits, who knows, maybe we find another source of energy.
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Re: End of Physics.

#3

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:41 pm

I think we MAYBE seeing the beginning of the end of OBSERVABLE physics and all that is left may be theoretical and unproven speculative physics.

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Re: End of Physics.

#4

Post by 1over137 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:48 pm

I do not think so. Just my opinion.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Re: End of Physics.

#5

Post by TheQuestor » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:51 pm

Silvertusk wrote:Fascinating podcast. Well worth a listen.

Silvertusk.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-end- ... of-physics
Physics will never end, as the more we learn, that more we see that what we learned previously, makes little or no sense. Take this new science of quantum teleportation of data for instance. The observations of this might be indicating that the data is being transmitted at faster than the speed of light, which pretty much throws a lot of textbooks into the trash if true. http://www.livescience.com/49028-farthe ... ation.html Carl Sagan predicted the end of science altogether, then the computer reinvented everything almost overnight, and actually created all new sciences. 99.999 percent of all knowledge is unknown, as it's a big universe.

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Re: End of Physics.

#6

Post by 1over137 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:42 am

Quantum entanglement does not imply faster than light communication.
If on one side of galaxy you measure, say, spin in one direction then you will know that on the other side of the galaxy the spin is in the opposite direction. The measurement outcomes are correlated, but it is not so that you can send Morse code or what. The outcome of the spin measurement is random. You have no means to send a real information to the other side of the galaxy.

There is one physicist John G. Cramer working on experiments on FTL communication. He uses complementarity principle that photons can behave as either particles or waves. I need to research his experiments to say more.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Re: End of Physics.

#7

Post by TheQuestor » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:07 am

1over137 wrote:Quantum entanglement does not imply faster than light communication.
If on one side of galaxy you measure, say, spin in one direction then you will know that on the other side of the galaxy the spin is in the opposite direction. The measurement outcomes are correlated, but it is not so that you can send Morse code or what. The outcome of the spin measurement is random. You have no means to send a real information to the other side of the galaxy.

There is one physicist John G. Cramer working on experiments on FTL communication. He uses complementarity principle that photons can behave as either particles or waves. I need to research his experiments to say more.
Quantum entanglement, is also being used in fiber optic cables, here on Earth, and no one doing this, is using the principle between galaxies. So you can jump automatically into the theoretical, or you can view real data from NASA-JPL. http://www.livescience.com/49028-farthe ... ation.html

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Re: End of Physics.

#8

Post by 1over137 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:24 am

TheQuestor wrote:
1over137 wrote:Quantum entanglement does not imply faster than light communication.
If on one side of galaxy you measure, say, spin in one direction then you will know that on the other side of the galaxy the spin is in the opposite direction. The measurement outcomes are correlated, but it is not so that you can send Morse code or what. The outcome of the spin measurement is random. You have no means to send a real information to the other side of the galaxy.

There is one physicist John G. Cramer working on experiments on FTL communication. He uses complementarity principle that photons can behave as either particles or waves. I need to research his experiments to say more.
Quantum entanglement, is also being used in fiber optic cables, here on Earth, and no one doing this, is using the principle between galaxies. So you can jump automatically into the theoretical, or you can view real data from NASA-JPL. http://www.livescience.com/49028-farthe ... ation.html
From the article
In the new, record-breaking experiment, researchers from the University of Geneva, NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and the National Institute of Standards and Technology used a superfast laser to pump out photons. Every once in a while, two photons would become entangled. Once the researchers had an entangled pair, they sent one down the optical fiber and stored the other in a crystal at the end of the cable. Then, the researchers shot a third particle of light at the photon traveling down the cable. When the two collided, they obliterated each other.

Though both photons vanished, the quantum information from the collision appeared in the crystal that held the second entangled photon.
Whatever quantum information it was, spin or whatever, it was random. So my explanation above holds. You have no means to send real information from one end to the other with speed faster than light.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

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Re: End of Physics.

#9

Post by 1over137 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:35 am

See the bolded parts from the article
Quantum teleportation doesn't mean it's possible for a person to instantly pop from New York to London, or be instantly beamed aboard a spacecraft like in television's "Star Trek." Physicists can't instantly transport matter, but they can instantly transport quantuminformation through quantum teleportation. This works thanks to a bizarre quantum mechanics property called entanglement.

Quantum entanglement happens when two subatomic particles stay connected no matter how far apart they are. When one particle is disturbed, it instantly affects the entangled partner. It's impossible to tell the state of either particle until one is directly measured, but measuring one particle instantly determines the state of its partner.
I added the word quantum in red. It was missing there and thus the text was misleading.
Notice the second bolded part: it is imposible to tell the state of either particle until measured. You have no means to force the outcome of the measurement as you wish. Outcome is random and you have no way to use it for communication.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

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Re: End of Physics.

#10

Post by TheQuestor » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:53 am

1over137 wrote:See the bolded parts from the article
Quantum teleportation doesn't mean it's possible for a person to instantly pop from New York to London, or be instantly beamed aboard a spacecraft like in television's "Star Trek." Physicists can't instantly transport matter, but they can instantly transport quantuminformation through quantum teleportation. This works thanks to a bizarre quantum mechanics property called entanglement.

Quantum entanglement happens when two subatomic particles stay connected no matter how far apart they are. When one particle is disturbed, it instantly affects the entangled partner. It's impossible to tell the state of either particle until one is directly measured, but measuring one particle instantly determines the state of its partner.
I added the word quantum in red. It was missing there and thus the text was misleading.
Notice the second bolded part: it is imposible to tell the state of either particle until measured. You have no means to force the outcome of the measurement as you wish. Outcome is random and you have no way to use it for communication.
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=4384

I hardly think that NASA/JPL are making things up.

New research co-authored by Francesco Marsili, microdevices engineer at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California, makes use of this phenomenon in a technological advancement published in the journal Nature Photonics. Researchers succeeded in teleporting information about the quantum state of a photon, a particle of light, over 15.5 miles (25 kilometers) of optical fiber to a crystal "memory bank," setting a new record of distance traveled in this manner. The previous record in optical fiber was 3.7 miles (6 kilometers). This complex phenomenon is called "quantum teleportation."
The research could have implications for cryptography, which involves transmitting information securely, including communications between Earth and spacecraft.

"We can imprint the state of a system on another system, even when the two are far apart," Marsili said. "Using this effect in communications could help in building an intrinsically secure space communication network -- i.e., communication channels that cannot be hacked."

Marsili and colleagues at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), Boulder, Colorado, developed devices that can detect single particles of light, called photons.

"It's hard to detect a single photon, so you need to make a sensitive detector," he said. "Here at JPL, in collaboration with NIST, we developed the most sensitive detector in the world."

How quantum teleportation works is complicated, but an analogy for the principle behind it may help: Let's say there are two people, Alice and Bob. Alice wants Bob to have a photon that's in the same "state" as her photon, which we'll call photon P. For the sake of this analogy, we'll pretend that the "state" is a color, and photon P is yellow. A third person named Charlie sends out two entangled photons, photon A to Alice and photon B to Bob, which behave as if they are part of the same whole. Both of these photons start out as blue.

"In an entangled system, each part is connected to one another in a fundamental way, such that any action performed on a part of the entangled system has an effect on the whole entangled system," Marsili said.

Alice's two photons, P, which is yellow, and A, which is blue, "collide." Alice measures the photons as they annihilate one another. Although P and A are destroyed in the crash, P's yellow color is preserved. Because photon A and photon B are entangled, the yellow color is "teleported" to B. But in order to get photon B to become yellow, as photon P originally was, Alice needs to send Bob two bits of information to B the "classical" way -- for example, by sending pulses of light over an optical fiber.

"When Alice measures the state of her photon, Bob's photon changes state as well, as if flipping a switch," Marsili said. "But Bob cannot know how the switch flipped unless Alice sends him the bits of information classically." Bob does not know that his photon has changed to yellow without that additional information.

Quantum teleportation doesn't mean someone can pop from New York to San Francisco instantaneously, but it seems like science fiction in the sense that the state of a particle (photon P) is destroyed at one location but imprinted on another remote system (photon B) without the two particles ever interacting.

Another crucial piece of this story is that Bob has a specific crystal, which serves as a memory bank, for storing his entangled photon and serving as the recipient of the quantum state.

The researchers reached the record distance of 15.5 miles (25 kilometers) between "Alice" and "Bob" thanks to the ultrasensitive detectors developed at JPL-NIST.

"Reaching this distance could not have been possible without the JPL NIST detectors," said Félix Bussières at the University of Geneva, Switzerland, who is the lead author of the study.

Quantum teleportation can be used to make systems, such as bank accounts, more secure over longer distances. This is also important to preventing attacks on communication channels in space.

"If you're communicating with your astronauts on Mars, you don't want to have hackers break the encrypted channel and give them false information," Marsili said.

The California Institute of Technology manages JPL for NASA.


What becomes of this, who knows, but I hardly think that banks are going to use randomly generated account numbers at anytime in the future.

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Re: End of Physics.

#11

Post by 1over137 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:04 pm

Notice this part from the article:
But in order to get photon B to become yellow, as photon P originally was, Alice needs to send Bob two bits of information to B the "classical" way -- for example, by sending pulses of light over an optical fiber.

"When Alice measures the state of her photon, Bob's photon changes state as well, as if flipping a switch," Marsili said. "But Bob cannot know how the switch flipped unless Alice sends him the bits of information classically." Bob does not know that his photon has changed to yellow without that additional information.
Before you said:
The observations of this might be indicating that the data is being transmitted at faster than the speed of light, which pretty much throws a lot of textbooks into the trash if true.
Now my question: what can be thrown from the textbooks into the trash?

---

Experiments like this aim to provide secure communication in future, bank and client for example.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

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Re: End of Physics.

#12

Post by TheQuestor » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:53 pm

1over137 wrote:Notice this part from the article:
But in order to get photon B to become yellow, as photon P originally was, Alice needs to send Bob two bits of information to B the "classical" way -- for example, by sending pulses of light over an optical fiber.

"When Alice measures the state of her photon, Bob's photon changes state as well, as if flipping a switch," Marsili said. "But Bob cannot know how the switch flipped unless Alice sends him the bits of information classically." Bob does not know that his photon has changed to yellow without that additional information.
Before you said:
The observations of this might be indicating that the data is being transmitted at faster than the speed of light, which pretty much throws a lot of textbooks into the trash if true.
Now my question: what can be thrown from the textbooks into the trash?

Yes, the changes in the particle appear to be instantaneous, though I do believe that to test this will take a much larger distance than 15.5 miles, to prove. Trust me, Einstein said that the universe was not expanding, before he said ooops I was wrong. So change happens, we can not say when or where.

---

Experiments like this aim to provide secure communication in future, bank and client for example.
Yes, the changes in the particle appear to be instantaneous, though I do believe that to test this will take a much larger distance than 15.5 miles, to prove. Trust me, Einstein said that the universe was not expanding, before he said ooops I was wrong. So change happens, we can not say when or where.

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Re: End of Physics.

#13

Post by 1over137 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:58 pm

I ask again: what can be thrown into trash from the textbooks?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

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Re: End of Physics.

#14

Post by TheQuestor » Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:09 pm

1over137 wrote:I ask again: what can be thrown into trash from the textbooks?
No one really knows what is happening with spooky entanglement, only that it is there. The observations appear to be instant, no lag at all over the 15.5 miles, if this is true, then this is faster than every textbook ever written that includes the fastest speed in the universe says is possible. Thus, if true (not proven yet) we have a new record holder, and another Einstein theory bites the dust

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Re: End of Physics.

#15

Post by 1over137 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:43 am

Physics textbooks have this:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light
Faster-than-light (also superluminal or FTL) communication and travel refer to the propagation of information or matterfaster than the speed of light. Under the special theory of relativity, a particle (that has rest mass) with subluminal velocity needs infinite energy to accelerate to the speed of light, although special relativity does not forbid the existence of particles that travel faster than light at all times (tachyons).

...

In the context of this article, FTL is the transmission of information or matter faster than c, a constant equal to the speed of light in a vacuum, which is 299,792,458 m/s (by definition) or about 186,282.4 miles per second. This is not quite the same as traveling faster than light, since:

Some processes propagate faster than c, but cannot carry information (see examples in the sections immediately following).
Light travels at speed c/n when not in a vacuum but travelling through a medium with refractive index = n (causing refraction), and in some materials other particles can travel faster than c/n (but still slower than c), leading to Cherenkov radiation (see phase velocity below).
Neither of these phenomena violates special relativity or creates problems with causality, and thus neither qualifies as FTL as described here.

...

Quantum teleportation transmits quantum information at whatever speed is used to transmit the same amount of classical information, likely the speed of light. This quantum information may theoretically be used in ways that classical information can not, such as in quantum computations involving quantum information only available to the recipient.
And so it is with the experiment you gave link to. Bob does not have that quantum information (which is photon polarization) until Alice sends him necessary classic information (probably in what direction to measure the Bob's photon polarization). Only after receiving additional classic information can Bob extract quantum information.

No causality is violated here.

And, none of Einstein's theory bites the dust. His general relativity is extensively used. To calculate the motion of planets (Newton's theory is insufficient for stronger gravitational fields and greater speeds.) To precisely calculate GPS coordinates. (Time rate is effected by gravitational field - http://physicscentral.com/explore/writers/will.cfm) Astronomers would be also lost without it. (Light bends due to gravitational field.)

To the Einstein's cosmological constant:

When he formulated the general relativity theory and constructed his equation based on few principles, he was allowed to add the constant into the equation as it did not violate the principles. Yes, his aim was to achieve steady universe. But Hubble later showed that universe is expanding so physicists put the constant to zero value. Nowadays this cosmological constant is reintroduced since we know that universe is expanding at the accelerating late.

---

Off to Christmas with my family, so my replies may be delayed.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

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