Animals have consciousness too

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Car
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Animals have consciousness too

#1

Post by Car » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:00 pm

I thought that this was a unique trait of humans http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... sciousness but it looks like animals have also consciousness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness
This was one of the things that kept my faith alive but I am losing the battle every day.So what do you think?Any thoughts ?

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Philip
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Re: Animals have consciousness too

#2

Post by Philip » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:31 pm

Car, welcome to the forum.

Please tell us a bit about yourself. Why/how does the existence of animal consciousness help your faith? But faith in what? Or in whom? You appear to want to believe in something - what/who is that?

Car
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Re: Animals have consciousness too

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Post by Car » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:10 am

Philip wrote:Car, welcome to the forum.

Please tell us a bit about yourself. Why/how does the existence of animal consciousness help your faith? But faith in what? Or in whom? You appear to want to believe in something - what/who is that?
Because I thought it was something that made us unique from other animals,and because even science can't explain it,there must be something more powerful than us that gave that trait.Now that animals have it too it might be something biological that it was made for our survival.

About me,I don't know what to believe in one hand we have huge black holes,many galaxies,huge planets and on the other hand we have questions like why we think like this?.Its getting very difficult for me to believe in a God

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Philip
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Re: Animals have consciousness too

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Post by Philip » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:26 pm

Car wrote: About me,I don't know what to believe in one hand we have huge black holes,many galaxies,huge planets and on the other hand we have questions like why we think like this? Its getting very difficult for me to believe in a God.
Car, whether or not you know it, YOU believe in miracles! The fact that you believe a universe exists, that our planet has the conditions that made/make life POSSIBLE, that the laws and processes involved were, from the very beginning, in existence and also MASSIVELY complex (see an extraordinary list of how precise the conditions of the universe and earth must be to support life: http://www.reasons.org/articles/fine-tu ... -june-2004). To believe even the conditions and mechanisms that are all totally necessary to exist for the universe and life to be possible on our tiny planet, is astounding, amazing, and mathematically/statistically, immensely and scientifically improbable. In fact, whether one believes God created the universe or believes it came into being by itself, applying the term "miraculous" to its beginning and its expansion is entirely appropriate. Most modern scientists believe in the Big Bang event and that it began nearly 14 billion years ago.

But the Big Bang was not some random explosion (despite the implications of its popular name), but a precisely timed release of matter, energy, space, and time within the strict confines of very carefully fine-tuned physical constants and laws which govern their behavior and interactions - laws of great complexity, yet that existed at the very beginning of the Big Bang, and through which controlled all aspects. But a universe doesn't just begin itself, organize itself, create laws that govern it! So where did these laws come from?!!! So here we have nothing alive, nothing moving, and then Something, where there was nothing, begins, controls and guides a most astonishing event. To believe this all happened by itself takes enormous faith.

Read about the complexity of The Big Bang event here: http://www.reasons.org/articles/a-begin ... m-fictions

Car, did you know that the Bible describes key aspects of the Big Bang, thousands of years before the beginnings of its related scientific theories in the early 20th century: http://www.reasons.org/articles/big-ban ... t-it-first And so WAY before any arguments we might have about life evolving, we have to explain how a universe came into being that could even support life to begin with - much less explain how non-life became alive - all per pure dumb chance.

Again, it takes enormous faith to believe those which are not only unproven theories, but also that the universe came into being randomly, and all by itself. As, even at its very beginning, we see its unfathomably great precision and extraordinary adherence to many, exceedingly complex physical, chemical and planetary laws - and so where did all these necessary and guiding laws/processes come from? Randomness does not produce precision - especially across so many parameters, all critically interconnected and complex within themselves. We find this biologically, chemically, it physics, planetary laws - immense interconnected complexity. Produced by dumb, random chance - complexity and precise mechanisms apparent at the very beginning? To believe our universe was produced and guided by random chance is just not logical. Only a God could explain it origins, complexity and precise guidance. And so, of the supposed gods/God recognized by mankind, what faith has any credibility (historically, scientifically, archaeologically, lived out amongst its followers), what faith's God has gone into detail of what His purpose is in creating the universe and us? I'd say only the God of Christianity!

Yes, while our consciousness and psychological self awareness are powerful clues to the existence of a Creator, The God of Christianity has left us far more evidence than just those intriguing parameters!

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Re: Animals have consciousness too

#5

Post by Eureka » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:59 pm

Hello Car,

I think you may be mixing up the words "conscious" and "conscience." Consciousness is an awareness of what is around you, and I don't believe the Bible says that this trait only belongs to humans! I think anyone with a pet would agree that animals can be very aware of their environment.

The difference between humans and animals is our ability to feel guilty. We are given a conscience that allows us to tell the difference between good and evil, and to understand morals.

"Man is the only animal tha blushes, or needs to."

Does this help, or did I misunderatand your question?

Best!

E
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Car
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Re: Animals have consciousness too

#6

Post by Car » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:31 pm

Philip I agree that we are really a miracle,but Bible does not agree with big bang,for example it is said Earth formed long after the stars according to big bang but the bible says that Earth was created before the stars.Also why is universe still expand?Why God would do that?

Eureka About morality and what is good and bad,I think its an evolutionary trait,for example we had to team with other people in order to survive so we had to be nice with everyone and be a group and work together

Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Animals have consciousness too

#7

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:50 pm

If I may I would like to interject on some things.
Car wrote:Philip I agree that we are really a miracle,but Bible does not agree with big bang,for example it is said Earth formed long after the stars according to big bang but the bible says that Earth was created before the stars.Also why is universe still expand?Why God would do that?
The creation story is not necessarily in chronological order and is also written by humans who would have had trouble understanding the things God was telling them.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This indicates that everything was created at once. One moment there was nothing then then next, boom the whole universe was created and spread out (over millions of years mind you). Isaiah 48:13 "My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together."

Genesis 1:6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Indicates that the Earth was covered in a primordial cloud because the sky was not separate from the land until God separated the water below from the waters above (sky).

Genesis 1:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so.

Indicates that at some point God removed the primordial cloud which in turn revealed the stars, moon and sun to be visible from Earth.

So you see God didn't create the stars after the Earth, he just revealed them by removing the primordial cloud, so from Earth's perspective the lights were revealed.

Dan
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Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Animals have consciousness too

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Post by Eureka » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:14 pm

Car wrote: Eureka About morality and what is good and bad,I think its an evolutionary trait,for example we had to team with other people in order to survive so we had to be nice with everyone and be a group and work together
Maybe having a conscience is an evolutionary trait, and I honestly don't know if cats and mice and ants and other social creatures have developed a moral code that promotes survival of their species. I do know that the guilt a human experiences still exists even when someone has "gotten away with something" and I can't imagine what evolutionary advantage a private and inconvenient feeling would offer in terms of social behavior, but it isn't impossible. Either way, I was responding to your first post, where you suggested that Christianity attributes consciousness uniquely to humans, because this is not correct. I brought up "conscience" in case that was the mix-up. Sorry if I was wrong...didn't mean to add to any confusion!!!

Best, E
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Re: Animals have consciousness too

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Post by Silvertusk » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:43 pm

Car wrote:Philip I agree that we are really a miracle,but Bible does not agree with big bang,for example it is said Earth formed long after the stars according to big bang but the bible says that Earth was created before the stars.Also why is universe still expand?Why God would do that?

Eureka About morality and what is good and bad,I think its an evolutionary trait,for example we had to team with other people in order to survive so we had to be nice with everyone and be a group and work together

The way we discover morality does not negate the objective nature of them or where they truely come from - that is just commiting the genetic fallacy.

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Re: Animals have consciousness too

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Post by CazPerth » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:30 am

Car, I don't really know what you mean by "consciousness" and how it applies to animals. However, rather than throw out God, perhaps you could clarify for yourself what this concept means to you and how it defines your relationship with your Creator. For myself, If it was discovered at some point in future that my own understanding of how God has endowed other created beings with consciousness then, I think, it is my understanding that is at fault not the evidence of God's existence.

What is more important, in my opinion, is whether or not you believe in the truth of Jesus Christ as your Saviour. Begin from Christ and the Gospels. In John's Gospel Jesus is quoted many times on the subject of belief in Him being the Way. If, instead, you focus on the reasons NOT to believe you will find these stumbling blocks such as needing humans to be unique in some way. I am not saying that we are NOT unique but I came to this understanding from a different approach. I will explain my own experience and maybe you will get something from it.

I was an atheist from age 10 to 52. Seven Months ago I would have laughed heartily if anyone had told me I would become a Christian and believe in Biblical Creation. I thought Creationists, especially, were fundamentalist crackpots and Christians in general were delusional. That was before Jesus spoke to me, out of the blue one day. I began to read the Bible and seriously examine all the old arguments I had against Creation and belief in God.

Now I believe that Jesus WAS who He said He was and the Gospels ARE a true account of His life. If I needed them, I also have the Roman and Greek historical accounts that corroborate events of His life. This foundational belief is the rock upon which I can build everything else I believe about God and Creation. The Bible is very plain in what it says once you have this foundation and read it with the light of Jesus.

If you understand that Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3) and that He therefore, created Adam and Eve as described in Genesis then YES humans are unique and Genesis 2:20 reinforces that because it sets apart the Man (and woman) created in God's image from the beasts and birds created according to their kind.

If you do not have the foundational belief that Jesus was who He said He was and the Gospels are true reports of His Words, then many interpretations of Genesis creep in and lead to confusion: exactly as Satan would want.

God bless
Carolyn

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