Did Exodus happen?

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 228 times
Been liked: 106 times
Contact:

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#16

Post by neo-x » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:54 pm

Mallz wrote:We need to get submarines and scuba divers and delve into the red sea! Perhaps we'd find chariots and corpses...
I actually don't think it was the red sea they crossed...that is a mistranslation from the Septuagint. The Hebrew word for the place of crossing is "Yam Suph" but Yam does not mean red, it means "reed". Israel probably crossed a large salt water lake which might have been an extension of the Red sea or may be the Nile delta. The exact place however remains unknown, but the translation being red sea is wrong.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

Ivellious
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1046
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:48 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#17

Post by Ivellious » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:12 pm

Bear in mind that a group of people who was constantly on the move would not leave any trace of archelogical evidence because there was no permanent settlements that would stand the test of time.
Not entirely true, actually. We have lots of archaeological evidence (some much older than biblical times) from nomadic groups that rarely had permanent settlements all over the world. Deserts, in particular, are great archaeological spots because the general lack of moisture is good for preserving relics. So the absolute lack of evidence of them ever existing is kind of strange, especially in a region that is so heavily studied by archaeologists and paleontologists.
not much...but I'm afraid your atheist friend will not accept this as a reasonable explanation. People who put their trust in the absence of such evidence are not very serious in my opinion. Its unfair in a way.
I agree that it would be wrong to suggest that the story is absolutely false without good reason. But as far as archaeology is concerned, much of the biblical story (even some rather specific details) have been supported by archaeological evidence. Except the story about enslaved Jews and their escape from Egypt. You can accept the story on faith, but just like you don't accept various other religious stories because you don't see evidence of them, it's not unreasonable for a nonbeliever to say that this particular story doesn't seem to add up when we look at our present-day knowledge.
That sounds eerily similar to what those who deny the Nazi holocaust say.
I'm going to very much disagree with you here, Rick. Especially since there is a ridiculous amount of evidence from the Holocaust. If anyone denies the Holocaust they are simply denying that the evidence is real, or invoking a conspiracy theory. I'm saying exactly the opposite; I can see why someone would look at the Exodus story and see no evidence for it happening, and conclude that they don't believe it. Seriously, compare the evidence for the Holocaust against the archaeological evidence for Exodus. It's not even close.
This is a total shot in the dark, but any chance the pyramids and all the Egyption wonders aren't a product, or at least partial product, of Jewish slave labour?
Good question, I forgot to bring this up. It's been generally accepted (even by biblical archaeologists) that the idea that the Jews were enslaved to build the pyramids is not true at all, but that the workers were poor, but paid laborers who actually were ceremonially buried after completion of the structures they built. The Egyptians never buried slaves in tombs, as that was a great honor to be buried among the pharaohs. Not to mention, the pyramids were built long before any estimate of the Jews even being in Egypt, throwing out any possibility that the Jews were forced to build them.

Here's a link regarding the pyramid builders, specifically, and how they were definitely not Jews, or slaves for that matter.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2010/011 ... s/(page)/2

And here's one from a Jewish newspaper that points out that there is no evidence at all supporting the notion of Jewish slavery in Egypt.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/the ... h-1.420844

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 349 times

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#18

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:03 am


PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 349 times

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#19

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:05 am


Mallz
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 804
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:34 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 99 times
Been liked: 67 times

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#20

Post by Mallz » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:38 am

I actually don't think it was the red sea they crossed...that is a mistranslation from the Septuagint. The Hebrew word for the place of crossing is "Yam Suph" but Yam does not mean red, it means "reed". Israel probably crossed a large salt water lake which might have been an extension of the Red sea or may be the Nile delta. The exact place however remains unknown, but the translation being red sea is wrong.
oooh, very interesting. And dissapointing, it would make finding evidence much easier. Plus I wanted to be in a submarine :(

User avatar
1over137
Technical Admin
Posts: 5249
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Slovakia
Has liked: 138 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#21

Post by 1over137 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:52 am



These two links contradict on suggested date for Exodus. 3500 vs 4500 years ago.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

Galations220
Newbie Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:30 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#22

Post by Galations220 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:37 pm

It is not academic , but there are some inscriptions along the exodus path that seems to be from the original people of the exodus

taken from this link
http://www.bibleprobe.com/exodus.htm


excerpt below

During the last century many explorers rediscovered a group of ancient inscriptions in the Wadi Mukatteb ("The Valley of Writing") on the Sinai Peninsula. It is commonly agreed that these inscriptions were made by the escaped Hebrew slaves of Egypt as they passed through the area under the leadership of Moses. While these inscriptions received much attention at first, the concept that these inscriptions were made by the Hebrews of the Exodus was summarily rejected by most scholars merely because they are most commonly known from the Bible. Their evidence was...well, no evidence at all, as they generally refused to even examine the inscriptions, the written record or the testimony of any of these explorers. They had made reference to an event related in the Bible and that was enough to refute that the inscriptions held anything of substance.

Nonetheless, the few scholars who examined the inscriptions affirmed that these inscriptions were indeed written by the Hebrews who actually witnessed the miraculous events described:

Cosmas Indicopleustes, Byzantine Christian author, wrote that the inscriptions appeared "at all halting places, all the stone in that region which were broken off from the mountains, written with carved Hebrew characters" usually proclaiming, "The departure of such and such a man of such a tribe, in such a year, in such a month." (from Arthur Penrlyn Stanley, Sinai and Palestine [London: John Murray, 1905], p. 57)
Examiners concluded that, as the inscriptions had survived in such good shape for as long as the locals could recall in the dry, hot climate they could easily have survived since the time that the Exodus in thought to have occurred.

Bishop Robert Clayton of Ireland also confirmed that the inscriptions were definitely of ancient Hebrew origin, consisting mostly of name, tribe and date or similar inscriptions by persons obviously passing through or, perhaps, camping nearby for a short period of time. He published these findings in the Journal of Franciscans of Cairo (1753)

A more detailed examination by Rev. Charles Forster, described in his book Sinai Photographed [London: Richard Bentley, 1852] asserted that the Hebrew characters throughout the inscriptions in the area had been obviously influenced in form by Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Historian Diodorus Siculus, about 10 B.C. described the Sinai Peninsula in his Library of History wrote, "Moreover, an altar is there built of hard stone and very old in years, bearing an inscription in ancient letters of an unknown tongue. the oversight of the sacred precinct is in the care of a man and woman who hold the position for life." (Bk. 3, sect. 42, Loeb Classical Library, C.H. Oldfather, trans. [Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1993], p.211)

User avatar
1over137
Technical Admin
Posts: 5249
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Slovakia
Has liked: 138 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#23

Post by 1over137 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:31 am

Thanks for the link, Galations. Looks interesting.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

Baltazorg
Familiar Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#24

Post by Baltazorg » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:25 am

You guy seriously need to check out Ron Wyatt's work. Not only did he find mount Sinai with its burnt peak, he also found the alter of the golden calf with Egyptian inscriptions on it. He also found the incredibly large and prominent rock that moses split into with erosion towards the bottom, suggesting this is the rock moses split, "coincidentally" it is right at the base of the mountain. And underneath the Red Sea, several expeditions were made to the crossing site. There were very obvious Egyptian made chariot wheels and twisted wreckage on the sea floor, look it up there are images of the sites on the Internet with everything I am describing. There is evidence of Exodus, it just never makes it to common knowledge.

User avatar
1over137
Technical Admin
Posts: 5249
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Slovakia
Has liked: 138 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#25

Post by 1over137 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:36 am

Baltazorg wrote:You guy seriously need to check out Ron Wyatt's work. Not only did he find mount Sinai with its burnt peak, he also found the alter of the golden calf with Egyptian inscriptions on it. He also found the incredibly large and prominent rock that moses split into with erosion towards the bottom, suggesting this is the rock moses split, "coincidentally" it is right at the base of the mountain. And underneath the Red Sea, several expeditions were made to the crossing site. There were very obvious Egyptian made chariot wheels and twisted wreckage on the sea floor, look it up there are images of the sites on the Internet with everything I am describing. There is evidence of Exodus, it just never makes it to common knowledge.
First link which hit me was this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt. Mmm.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

User avatar
1over137
Technical Admin
Posts: 5249
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Slovakia
Has liked: 138 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#26

Post by 1over137 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:09 am

I am still talking with my friend. He showed me on Google books one book. Then I found criticism on it from one Prof from Denver Seminary. It may be of interest so sharing http://www.denverseminary.edu/article/t ... unearthed/
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

User avatar
1over137
Technical Admin
Posts: 5249
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 6:05 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Slovakia
Has liked: 138 times
Been liked: 298 times

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#27

Post by 1over137 » Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:26 pm

I also found this http://www.theologynetwork.org/christia ... tament.htm
Seems that Kitchen's book On the Reliability of the Old Testament might be bery helpful.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

Galations220
Newbie Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:30 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#28

Post by Galations220 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:46 pm

From the link you provided

(2) The details of the first nine plagues at the Exodus are tied very closely to the annual regime of the Nile in Egypt (July/August to March/April), under the impact of an over-high flood. The details presuppose close knowledge of such special conditions (not every year!) not available to faraway writers in the Levant, or still less in Babylonian exile which was almost a thousand miles away.


I am not familiar with any counter arguments if they exists, but any good commentary will go over the significance of each plague which in itself shows the author to be familiar with Egyptian customs. It doesn't completely validate the Exodus story, especially the details, but the explanation that it was completely made up is harder to believe.

pat34lee
Recognized Member
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:27 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Hilliard, Florida
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#29

Post by pat34lee » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:08 pm

neo-x wrote:
Mallz wrote:We need to get submarines and scuba divers and delve into the red sea! Perhaps we'd find chariots and corpses...
I actually don't think it was the red sea they crossed...that is a mistranslation from the Septuagint. The Hebrew word for the place of crossing is "Yam Suph" but Yam does not mean red, it means "reed". Israel probably crossed a large salt water lake which might have been an extension of the Red sea or may be the Nile delta. The exact place however remains unknown, but the translation being red sea is wrong.
It can mean either, but it takes a miracle either way. Did YHWH open a path for Israel to pass through the sea, or did he drown the Pharaoh's army in a few feet of water?

pat34lee
Recognized Member
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:27 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Hilliard, Florida
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Did Exodus happen?

#30

Post by pat34lee » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:18 pm

One problem with finding proof of Israel's route through the desert is that most, if not all, bibles are so far off in the number of people leaving Egypt. At that time, two million people would have been about the whole population of Egypt. The following page shows that only about seven thousand went from Egypt to Sinai, including the mixed multitude.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/39_exodus.html

Post Reply